Swiss K31 vs. Mauser in Combat

[KW]

We lost the war in Iraq? Last I checked Saddam was dead, the democratic government we helped them build was in power, and our troops had mostly withdrawn. If that's a victory for Saddam or the insurgents, they must have had some really mixed up long term goals.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Is a K31 or K98 capable of killing people? Sure - the same could be said of a Sharps or even a crossbow. But that doesn't make those viable weapons on the modern battlefield. Were the Boers able to win a couple battles using long range rifle fire against incompetent British formations? Sure. But remember that ultimately the British Army defeated the Boers in the field, driving them to insurgency, and then won that insurgency. The World Wars and Korea demonstrated that long range rifle fire wasn't particularly useful outside of sniping or harassment. Once your targets are wearing camo, using cover and concealment, moving, and limiting their exposure to fire, those 600 yard shots stop happening on any regular basis. And god help you if those guys you opened up on at that range with your K31 happen to have an attached sniper team, or a GPMG, or a Javelin, or a radio to call some artillery etc.

 

[Golden_006]

You're really going to compare a crossbow to a Mauser on a battlefield? Further you're assuming everyone on your side would have one. And I never said that's the case. Look back at the photo eariler in this thread. I see AKs right next to a guy with Lee Enfield SMLE next to a guy with a rocket launcher. no crossbow or anything stupid. og and guess what no AR either! I guess that pretty much answers the question.

And further our puppet gov't in Iraq has pretty much every rag tag militia in the mid-east challening them for power and control, and by the looks of things one of them will get it.

 

[amd6547]

The ideal insurgent unit would be made up of long range scope equipped marksman, short to medium range rifleman with automatic weapons, and yes, RPG's and IED's.
A K31 is excedingly easy to scope...mine is the most intrinsically accurate rifle I have owned.
If anyone thinks we have "won" in Iraq, they are watching too much evening news or listening to the White House...Yes, we have declared "victory", but what we have set up a frail house of cards and called it "democracy". It will blow down into chaos and dictatorship within a year of our exit.

 

[fireside44]

Yes any gun can jam but we're talking about the K31 vs K98 Mauser in my case and the K31 is going to be a very different animal in regards to clearences and leverage for feeding and extraction.

Starting to sound like an AK vs AR debate lol.

And I'm asserting that the K98 will take more debris or more of an out of spec / damaged round to put out of action

I'm not disagreeing with you.

You seem to be quick on the draw with smart remarks but nothing to back it up.

Could be worse, they could be dumb remarks with nothing to back them up.

 

[jaybirdjtski]

Afganistan is another war being run by politicians whom, I suspect, really don't want a victory, pretty much like the one I was involved in back in the early 70s. Well, let me put it this way, our political "leaders" want a victory but not for the USA. The closest thing they want to something resembling an American victory is simply keeping themselves in power. They might even want us to lose as some sort of twisted payback for supporting Israel.
If we fought in Afganistan without NV, out in the open, I fear our troops would suffer more deaths. NV gives us a huge edge. Now if the politicians would ditch the ROEs, we actually might succeed over there. Instead, we have a policy of trying to make a people who have hated the west for centuries actually like us and be our "best, good friends". Gimme a break.

 

[leadcounsel]

our troops had mostly withdrawn.

Really? Depends on 'mostly' definition. 1/3rd of us are still here... Iraq is fragile.

Back to the OP.

The merits of any individual weapon system (K31 v. Mauser) depend on the tactics of the other Army. For a PC Army, insurgents are successful at hiding amongts civilians and taking potshots. It becomes a war of morale and attrition for the occupying Army. However, for a scorched earth policy Army, who would just lay waste to an entire city, then neither weapon would matter.

In any case, the K31 is a superior weapon regarding design, but the Mauser has had the longevity that, for some reason, the K31 has not enjoyed.

 

[madcratebuilder]

the Mauser has had the longevity that, for some reason, the K31 has not enjoyed.

The K-31 served the Swiss Army from 1934 to 1958. Not many rifles have that long of service record and remained unchanged, not even the M16.

As far as K31 v. Mauser, they are nearly the same rifles. Full stocked bolt actions with limited magazine capacity.

 

[45Fan]

While a bolt gun in the hands of a highly trianed sniper is a formidable weapon, seems alot of us fail to remember that sniper is almost always covered by a second, equally well trained sniper, armed with a select fire assult rifle or main battle rifle. Rate of accurate fire from a bolt gun can be immpressive in the right hands, but nothing to compare to a platoon sized force with automatic weapons and grenade launchers.

 

[FX]

The K-31 served the Swiss Army from 1934 to 1958. Not many rifles have that long of service record and remained unchanged, not even the M16.

As far as K31 v. Mauser, they are nearly the same rifles. Full stocked bolt actions with limited magazine capacity.

But the K31 have a removal magazine, not the K98.
The 7.5 Swiss is better. The K31 trigger is... perfect for a combat rifle.
Only the sights are poor for "old guys" for both rifles.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

To my way of thinking,if I were to take a bolt action rifle into battle against a modern army,it would be because it was all I had. In which case I would take whichever I had.

 

[ZCORR Jay]

I would totally agree with jimmyray. I also do agree with previous statments that people forget how effective a bolt action can be. Yes its no modern day weapon but don't count them out.

 

[madcratebuilder]

But the K31 have a removal magazine, not the K98.

Yes it does, but like the Lee Enfield the magazine was not designed to be change. On the k-31 it is serial numbered to the rifle and extra mags were not an issued item. In fact finding spare mags can be difficult for the K-31.

This Swiss issued ammo in cardboard/metal stripper clips and the rifle is reloaded with those.

 

[dogngun]

AFIAK, the last bolt action to be issued as a combat weapon

for regular unit (non-sniper or similar) use in a REAL ARMY was the Ishapore SMLE .303, made in India and used in India's war against the Chinese in the early 1960's. The bolt action designed in the 1880's went against the AK and other Chinese autoloading small arms. The Indians later made newer versions -the 2A1, designed for 7.62 NATO, and some are still in use today by Indian police units (I saw some being carried when that bomber struck in Mumbai.) BUT-India also went to a SLR for their main combat troops (a British FAL made in India) as they made the new 2A1's to use the NATO round and retire the .303 British cartridge. Both their SLR and the 2A1 used the 7.62mm NATO round.
FWIW, the 2A1 shoots flatter than the old .303 Enfield, and is really usable to 800 meters with irons.

I'd take the one I have over any other issue bolt rifle ever made by anyone.

It is smooth as glass, holds 12 rounds and has the best military rifle trigger I have used in almost 40 years of shooting surplus guns.

Mine was made in 1965, and it's a gem.

BUT-it I were not restricted to bolt rifles, I'd take an M-14...
I just hope they are not taking old men - I already had my turn in the barrel...


mark

added: When did we lose the war in Iraq..Last night when I was asleep?

 

[Golden_006]

Did Israel have the FN FAL in the 1967 war? I'm pretty sure they used a rebarreled 7.62 mauser; not sure when they stopped.

Also what guns were standard issue in the yugoslav wars? i know Mausers were there not sure if it was the issued weapon or if there was really such thing. And I'm pretty sure they were in unconventional style fighting.

 

[earplug]

K31

I retired as a REMF and most of my heros had big rifles. I'll try the K31 in my hobbit hole.

 

[Steve Marshall]

How about one more non-sequitur? In 1914, Sgt. Snoxall hit a 12" target 38 times with an Enfield in one minute. Granted this was a world record but still. I suspect most of us would be hard pressed to duplicate this feat with ANY rifle. The average Brit soldier at the time, was required to fire 30 accurate shots a minute at 200 yards in a minute.