sword canes?

[Rob Pincus]

Thanks for thinking of us Denny...

If anyone follows that link, they will be able to download at least 3 videos of our Cane Fighting Course.. two demonstration and one student in a scenario. (more to come)

 

[hso]

http://www.thehaca.com/

http://swordplayalliance.com/mission.htm

Modern martial fencing is different from sport fencing. A properly made sword cane could be adapted to these techniques. The problem is that such a hidden small sword would provide fewer options than a good can for less than lethal to lethal self defense. I've played at knife, sword, and cane and while the sword has great advantage over both as a lethal weapon it requires more training than either to be of much use.

 

[Sharpdogs]

Not a sword cane but a cane weapon, check out http://www.valoisknives.com/canes.htm I saw Valois products at the NY Knife show. This cane weapon is assailant activated. The belt buckle knives are pretty cool as well.

 

[The Tengu]

Ed Martin of the Bujinkan also offers a video about cane techniques.

You can get his cane video and his other video (Self-Defense for Everyone) at http://www.ninjutsu.com/cgi/searchdb.cgi?Action=search&Category1=Ninjutsu+Videos&SubCategory1=Ninjutsu+Masters+Videos&SearchBy=SubSubCategory1&Query=Ed+Martin

 

[13.45]

Barry Dawson makes an exceptional sword cane by mounting one of his custom blades in a heavy-duty aluminum orthopedic cane. these are highest quality and fully functional, both as walking aids and PDWs

 

[walking arsenal]

just entertaining a thought here.

Sword canes, pro's and con's.
Could these things be a viable choice for a conceiled weapon when the trusty rosco is not allowed?

 

[Jeff White]

I'm going to move this to Non-Firearms Weapons. Probably get more replies there.

Jeff

 

[hso]

look here
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2322&highlight=cane

 

[nsmike]

I have been reading this with some interest. I fenced many years ago in high school and want to point out some things.

1. a sword cane with the sheath in place can be used as any other cane.

2. If you are going to use western fencing as practice learn saber. Neither foil or epee prepare you mentally for combat.

The exact blade design will determine if you can use the weapon for slashing or if it will restrict you to stabbing. If the weapon is restricted to stabbing then the techniques of foil and epee are important but only saber will prepare the mind.

 

[Glamdring]

sw24: If you want stick/knife fighting the Kali group in Twin Cities is very good (I would say that the quality is on par with Thunder Ranch only for blades and sticks not guns). IF my schedule ever allows I would probably go there once or twice a week myself.

With your size I would suggest one of the big Spyderco or Cold Steel folders as more practical. Remember Murderapolis has some specific city laws against blades and it is still unclear if CCW permit would allow legal carry of the longer blades. Joel mentioned some of this in the CCW class, I would ask him for update when you take the class.

BTW have you seen my Endura yet? Remind me next time we get together.

 

[Sunray]

"...conceiled(sic) weapon..." If you're not supposed to be armed, how is this different? And it takes much more training, practice and willingness to defend yourself with a knife of any kind. Especially if you think you can weild a sword from watching Zorro on TV.

 

[CatsDieNow]

Okay...sport fencing is not going to help you out much with learning to use a sword - especially in cane form. I learned strategy and have spectacular reflexes from fencing, but I never claim to be able use a 3 lb sword effectivly. The main reasons are:

1. Right-of-way - sabre fencing's got it and a ref to enforce it. Bad guys don't follow rules.
2. Sabre = 35" and 21oz (Epee = 27oz) with CG near the guard. Sword canes are usually both heavy canes, and poorly weighted swords.
3. Use of protective gear - no fear of getting hit/hurt makes one artifically aggressive and imports a sense of false confidence.
4. Linear playing field.

You get the same benefits from fencing that you would from any martial art, none of which are learning how to use a specific weapon.

It's a fun sport, though. I was probably one of the few kids who was encouraged by her parents to beat her brother over the head with a weapon.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

As I understand it, sword canes are illegal to carry around just about anywhere. I don't know whether they are allowed with a CCW, I think probably not because you aren't concealing the weapon, but the fact that it's a weapon.

Ignoring their legality, the cheap sword canes are useless. They have low quality blades that would be far less effective than a simple cane/club. And since the cane is hollowed out to accomodate the 'sword', it is probably too weak to make an effective club. Also, the cheap sword canse have to be unscrewed, which takes several seconds, and alerts your attacker that you have something hidden in the cane.

The good sword canes have full length 'epee' type blades. These are triangular blades with little or no edge. Kindof like a really big ice pick. Also, the good canes are typically a bit sturdier and the cane can be retained in the offhand as an effective parrying/clubbing device. Also, the handle and sword are easily and quickly released.

But again, if you don't know how to use the 'sword', you are probably better off using the whole thing as a club.

It is very important for you to realize that a sword cane is almost useless as a slashing weapon, even the ones that have an edge. The blade is simply too light, and too long for you to get enough leverage to inflict more than a minor cut. If you can't stab the bad guy with it, you can't hurt him.

I am one of the senior members of my universities fencing team, and I specialize in epee (which is supposed to emulate a duel). While this by no means makes me an expert in the use of a sword for defensive purposes, it does make it's limitations painfully obvious, especially when watching how the newbies try to wield them. Most of their attacks flat out miss thier opponents, they simply haven't developed the necessary point control to make their blade go where they want it to, especially when there is some sort of contact or defensive action involved. If you are fighting someone with a knife and you miss, you are at their mercy because your point will be behind them, and they can gut you at their leisure. Unless you really know what you are doing, infighting with a sword is almost impossible.

Unless you are skilled enough with your sword cane to stab the bad guy in the wrist without getting close enough for him to swipe at your arm, you probably shouldn't bother with one because you will be forced to get close enough to stab him in the body, and he will take out your arm.

I typed this fairly quickly, so I will probably have to edit and clarify a few things. Bear in mind that this is coming from a fencer's standpoint, not a truly practical one. In real life you could kick, etc, and I am used to fencing against people who are armed and trained in a similar fashion to me.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

In response to CatsDieNow:

The right of way rules of foil and saber are supposed to force a fencer to develop good habits. They exist to counter the fact that a fencer is not afraid of his opponents blade in practice. Without right of way rules, it is very easy to get in the habit of attacking into an attack launched by your opponent if you think you can hit him first. This would not normally prevent your opponent from stabbing you and in real life often resulted in two dead duelists. So right of way rules were developed that basically, force a fencer who is being attacked to save his own life by stopping that attack before he launches his own. The target are in foil is limited to the torso. This is so when you end up in a sword fight, you don't screw around with stupid non-lethal moves like toe shots that will only put you at risk of getting stabbed. Basically: Don't screw around, and kill the person as efficiently as possible.

Saber was designed to teach cavalry soldiers how to fight on horseback with their cavalry sabers. It too has a bunch of rules, most of them are sabers version of right of way, but others are designed to slow the action down (the hobble rule). It will teach you how to defend against slashing attacks. (as well as how to launch them).

Epee is designed to simulate a duel as closesly as possible, and there is no right of way. The target is your whole body from head to toe, and the only thing that matters is who stabs the other person first. The weapons we use are, except for cosmetic and safety changes, almost identical to the last generation dueling swords. In fact, the pressure required to push the electric button on the tip of an eppee is enough to put a dueling epee through a side of beef. Every time you get a touch in epee, you would have inflicted a serious injury. Epee teaches you how to win a duel, though not necessarily how to survive one. You learn how to stop-thrust into a persons arm, preventing their attack from landing, and you learn protect your entire body from attack. There is no slashing in epee or foil for the simple reason that it just doesn't normally make sense. The dueling weapons of the day (except sabres) were, like sword canes, too light to inflict serious injury with a slash. Furthermore, you would wast too much time by cocking your arm back in order to slash. A competent epeeist will stab you before your blow ever lands.

In order to be truly proficient with a sword, you have to be proficient with all three weapons.

Fencing used to be done in 'rounds' and attacks were launched tangent to the circle your oppenent could sweep out with his weapon. This changed in about 1594 when a gentleman by the name of Kappa Ferra published a book that said basically: "don't wast time running around in circles, line up at your opponent, and kill him directly." Basically he pointed out that the big, indirect attacks of the day were almost ineffective against a person who just pivoted in place and lunged straight towards their opponent. This boils down to economy of motion. It is simply more efficient to focus your energy on either moving directly towards your opponent or away from him.

Linear fencing was developed because it was the most effective way of winning a sword fight, not for sport purposes. This can be seen when a sport fencer goes to an SCA fencing tournament, where they still allow you to run around in circles. It is easy for the sport fencer to turn and face their opponent who is running around, and it is also easy for them to win. The SCA fencers are, by and large, simply too inefficient with their movements.

I will conclude by saying that sport fencing (which has remained more or less the same for hundreds of years) is the best training possible for dueling. For any other purpose, all bets are off.

 

[JShirley]

Good info, and I think I agree. Welcome to THR!

John

 

[nsmike]

CatsDieNow,
I would agree that a lot of sword canes are poorly weighted, but not all of them are. I was shown a britsh sword cane from the late 19th century that would not take a back seat in balance to your finest fencing saber. I don't know the exact weight but it was not significantly different from my practice saber. It was about 3ft long with a 3/4 inch wide blade. I believe the oversized pommel made of brass help balance the blade. With the scabbard in place it was an ornate gentlmans cane shed of its scabbard it was a superb weapon.

 

[LawDog]

I will conclude by saying that sport fencing (which has remained more or less the same for hundreds of years) is the best training possible for dueling.

Hmm. If, by 'sport-fencing' we are speaking of the version of fencing which is showcased in the Olympic Games, and is the staple of the fencing programs of most colleges, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.

LawDog

 

[Byron Quick]

Heh. Kinda off topic but this reminded me of a bout a couple of old friends had once. One was a kendoka and the other was a foil fencer. They got to arguing about the relative merits of their styles....

Decided to have a bout to decide the matter.


Well, the foil fencer scored several points with thrust to the kendoists armored chest. Then the kendoka slashed from right to left. His shinai caught the fencer's sword arm from elbow to hand-disarming him and smashing his foil to pieces. Unfortunately, he was already flowing into his next move and brought the shinai squarely down onto his opponent's head. End of bout.

 

[CatsDieNow]

I am on vacation this week, but apparently I am still a THR addict...geez.

OrvilleYertleson,

I am well aware of the historical background of fencing, as I used to be a nationally ranked sabre fencer for many years. I have also fenced foil before I switched to sabre; epee I never liked. Actually, the sport has changed quite a bit during just the time that I did it - electric scoring, no more fleche (in sabre), better blade steel, no priority, etc... these all significantly changed the style in which people fence. In the end, however, it is still just a game with rules and the most successful fencers know how to use those rules to their advantage, unlike the real world.

Does anyone actually duel anymore?

Fencing taught me to stratagize on the move, and to have the confidence to attempt to execute that plan. This is what I believe is the most important skill to be learned from any martial art.

nsmike,

I would love to see any neato old swords that you have. I simply meant that most of the stuff pandered on the market today is merely shiny, cheap junk.

Byron Quick,

I have always said that if I was in a situation as you describe, I would hit early and often, but if the guy with the bigger sword ever managed to connect, I would be in some serious trouble.

 

[nsmike]

CatsDieNow, unfortunately the aformentioned swordcane was owned by a family friend in the antique business. I agree that most of what is out there is junk but it is not all junk. The use of the swordcane is different than in fencing or a duel because it is unlikely that your opponent would be armed with a sword. I recognize that the light weight blade in a swordcane could not be used to fatally slash an opponent it could be used to disarm one, by slashing at the hand or forarm, real damage would require a thrust. The biggest reason I recommmended saber because of the combat mind set need to be good at it.
Mike