cratz2
Member
Funny, but I've had guns parkerized for $40. Perfectly good quality job too! I've never seen anyone offer a hot blue job for $40.
"Tactical" Bolt guns???
- Thread starter FNFiveSeven
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Funny, but I've had guns parkerized for $40. Perfectly good quality job too! I've never seen anyone offer a hot blue job for $40.
H
Handy
Guest
Okay, if you have a "sporter" that shoots .308 into .5 MOA groups, and will fire say, 5 shots quickly without losing zero, why wouldn't that rifle be good for sniping, target shooting or other "tactical" uses?
Does a rifle have to weight 13 pounds to be stable enough to shoot really well? I've seen alot of light rifles that seem to do well for their owners without heavy anything.
Does a rifle have to weight 13 pounds to be stable enough to shoot really well? I've seen alot of light rifles that seem to do well for their owners without heavy anything.
BusMaster007
Member
How 'bout a Tactical Sporter?
Remington 700 BDL 7mm Rem.Mag. / Bell&Carlson Premier Thumbhole Sporter stock / Leupold Tactical Mil-Dot 4.5-14x40 scope with really lonnnng 6" sunshade / Harris Bipod...
It's been changed since this to have the same kind of scope, only it's the 'non' Tactical version. I fogged some Krylon Satin Hunter Green onto the stock. Not much different, really, but, it doesn't look Tactical anymore...
Remington 700 BDL 7mm Rem.Mag. / Bell&Carlson Premier Thumbhole Sporter stock / Leupold Tactical Mil-Dot 4.5-14x40 scope with really lonnnng 6" sunshade / Harris Bipod...
It's been changed since this to have the same kind of scope, only it's the 'non' Tactical version. I fogged some Krylon Satin Hunter Green onto the stock. Not much different, really, but, it doesn't look Tactical anymore...
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FNFiveSeven
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You hit the nail on the head Handy, that's EXACTLY what I'm thinking. Now, that's not to say that there isn't some other difference between the "tactical" and the "sporter," but look at a company like HS Precision or McMillan. Both companies offer lighter rifles with "traditional" synthetic stocks they call "sporters" and heavier rifles with adjustable vertical grip stocks they call "tactical" models. But my concern is, both rifles are guaranteed to shoot sub 1/2 MOA so neither rifle is more accurate than the other... what is is about a tactical rifle that makes it's stock design and weight better for the "tactical" situation? Someone mentioned that the extra weight in the barrel allows for for more shots before heating up and losing accuracy... but my understanding is that a tactical situation rarely requires the use of multiple shots, so what's the point? Doesn't the saying go "One shot, one kill"? If it's truly one shot one kill, it seems that not only will the sporter do the job just as well, but since it weighs less and can therefore be carried further and shot offhand easier, it's actually a superior choice! Does this make sense?
Ah yes, the Mall Ninja marketing ploy...
Don't get me started on Choate stocks. 
I'm referring to weapons that come from manufaturers new. Remington, Mossberg, Sig, Styer, etc, all cost more from the factory with parkerizing. I'm not talking about what your local economy bears for pricing.
For the record, I don't hunt. I enjoy shooting. The "tactical" rifles hold up to a 250 round day at the range much better than their tapered barrel bretheren. That's why all my rifles are heavy barreled, be it my Remington 700 rifles, or my Springfield M1A rifles. Less walking of shots.
Skullboy
Member
The other thing you want to remember is that a lighter rifle transfers more recoil to the shooter, and has more muzzle jump, where as a heavier rifle will take the bite out of recoil, and the muzzle jump won't be as pronouced.The recoil issue would be more of a concern on the range with multiple shots, and the muzzle jump issue would be of more concern for a quick follow up shot if needed.
That being said, I hunt Moose with my back-up "Tactical" rifle, a Rem700 VS in .308win with a 20" barrel and a Leupold 4.5 X 14 - 40mm Mildot Tactical scope.Yes, it is heavier then your average sporter, but it is all that I have hunted with, and I'm used to it's weight(I don't road hunt, I actually carry it for miles in the bush).
SKBY.
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Quintin Likely
Member
...QuarterBore says...
Pretty ‘tactical’ so far right?
But but but… it’s in .22-250
Did I just lose my ‘tactical’ status?
Is it black? If so, nope, you're still plenty tactical.
Pretty ‘tactical’ so far right?
But but but… it’s in .22-250
Did I just lose my ‘tactical’ status?
Is it black? If so, nope, you're still plenty tactical.
ShaiVong
Member
Eh? I don't want to be shot in the head by a .22-250! Those suckers can take burros down with one shot!
I am by no means an expert, but one of the questions repeated here has to do with why you would want a heavier bulkier gun that shoots just as well as the lighter handier one. Sure the heavier one doesnt heat up as much but the police marksman rarely take 25 shots in a row in the field (or I would hope they dont). There is one thing that people forget. Police snipers often end up camping on a rooftop staring at the same small target through their scopes and that gets painfull. A lot of the "features" on tactical stocks are there to make the rifle more comfortable for long periods of waiting without inducing fatigue. Personaly I also find heavier guns to be easier to balance and maintain sight picture with, particularly with a bipod.
And oh yeah, they look cool and cost more. But we all already knew that.
Loch
And oh yeah, they look cool and cost more. But we all already knew that.
Loch
atek3
Member
depends on the bullet. 45 gr blitzking, sorry too sporty, hornady 75 gr BTHP, tactical...
atek3
BerettaNut92
Member
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- Dec 23, 2002
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- 9,723
Thread CPR!!!
Zak Smith
Member
Instead of calling them tactical rifles, let's talk about rifles typically used by LEO/military for precision roles and rifles typically used in sniper/tactical style long range/precision competitions. Here's what they have beyond your average hunting rifle-
1. Heavier, and heavier barrel to withstand more thermal stress under rapid strings of fire
2. Higher level of accuracy, think 0.5MOA and under instead of minute of pie plate.
3. More adjustable ergonomics.
4. Optics appropriate for precise engagements of targets out to limit of the cartridge (ie, trans-sonic boundary). This generally means more magnification on average, and externally-adjustable, repeatable and return to zero elevation and windage knobs, or a specialized reticle like the Horus H25.
5. Brake and/or suppressor or suppressor attachment.
6. Generally more durable since they're regularly tested under worse conditions, and shot more.
7. Semi-auto style box magazines are more useful on a tactical/practical precision rifle.
But of course note that a long range groundhog rig has a lot of these attributes.
Can you spot the differences between a rifle designed from the ground up for military sniper duty, vs. a canonical American hunting rifle?
[ link to LARGER image ]
(Oleg's photo of The Rabbi's rifle, currently for sale)
1. Heavier, and heavier barrel to withstand more thermal stress under rapid strings of fire
2. Higher level of accuracy, think 0.5MOA and under instead of minute of pie plate.
3. More adjustable ergonomics.
4. Optics appropriate for precise engagements of targets out to limit of the cartridge (ie, trans-sonic boundary). This generally means more magnification on average, and externally-adjustable, repeatable and return to zero elevation and windage knobs, or a specialized reticle like the Horus H25.
5. Brake and/or suppressor or suppressor attachment.
6. Generally more durable since they're regularly tested under worse conditions, and shot more.
7. Semi-auto style box magazines are more useful on a tactical/practical precision rifle.
But of course note that a long range groundhog rig has a lot of these attributes.
Can you spot the differences between a rifle designed from the ground up for military sniper duty, vs. a canonical American hunting rifle?
[ link to LARGER image ]
(Oleg's photo of The Rabbi's rifle, currently for sale)
bogie
Member
When you print, paint, engrave, or otherwise place the word "Tactical," on something, you can get at least a 20% markup from the folks who just have to have "the real gear."
Sheesh.
Tell y'all what... Bring on your favorite tactical rifle, and I'll bring my favorite light varmint rifle, and we'll punch some paper at 300 yards.
Bring money.
And ferchrissake! The reason why they chrome line barrels isn't to make them shoot better. It's to make 'em keep shooting even after the grunts don't clean 'em like they should.
Sheesh.
Tell y'all what... Bring on your favorite tactical rifle, and I'll bring my favorite light varmint rifle, and we'll punch some paper at 300 yards.
Bring money.
And ferchrissake! The reason why they chrome line barrels isn't to make them shoot better. It's to make 'em keep shooting even after the grunts don't clean 'em like they should.
bogie
Member
Oh yeah...
Fluting a barrel doesn't help that much with cooling.
Where it comes in handy is allowing a close effective cross section, and stiffness, with a significantly lighter barrel, which means less fatigue on the shooter's part.
i.e., take two barrels with an identical profile, and flute one. It won't be quite as stiff as the other one, but it'll be at least a half pound lighter.
Fluting a barrel doesn't help that much with cooling.
Where it comes in handy is allowing a close effective cross section, and stiffness, with a significantly lighter barrel, which means less fatigue on the shooter's part.
i.e., take two barrels with an identical profile, and flute one. It won't be quite as stiff as the other one, but it'll be at least a half pound lighter.
Then the following is a lie?
"Model 700P LTR (Light Tactical Rifle), chambered for .308 Win., .223 Rem., and .300 Rem. SA Ultra Mag.; features a slimmed down stock to improve portability and reduce weight. The flutes in the 20" LTR not only assist in weight reduction and heat dissipation, but are engineered to enhance barrel rigidity for pinpoint accuracy."
From Remington's LE Web Page on the LTR
I am shocked.
bogie
Member
Yeah, pretty much.
Thing is, you take a 4 pound barrel. You can have a four pound barrel that is very rigid, and 16" long, or you can have a four pound barrel that is _almost_ as rigid, and 20" long.
The fluting will theoretically help with heat dissipation, with very slightly faster cool down, but in real world use, you're not going to notice it - Because it'll also heat up slightly faster.
And yeah, I've got a Light Varmint bench gun with a fluted barrel. Came in third one day at the Supershoot. Dang fine barrel. But it's a tomato stake now.
Think of this - if fluted barrels improve accuracy, why have I NEVER seen one on an unlimited class rifle?
Oh, and I'll put two friends who happen to be "gunsmiths" against the whole damn Remington Custom Shop - Let each of 'em build a rifle, and see which is the most accurate. I'll bring money.
Thing is, you take a 4 pound barrel. You can have a four pound barrel that is very rigid, and 16" long, or you can have a four pound barrel that is _almost_ as rigid, and 20" long.
The fluting will theoretically help with heat dissipation, with very slightly faster cool down, but in real world use, you're not going to notice it - Because it'll also heat up slightly faster.
And yeah, I've got a Light Varmint bench gun with a fluted barrel. Came in third one day at the Supershoot. Dang fine barrel. But it's a tomato stake now.
Think of this - if fluted barrels improve accuracy, why have I NEVER seen one on an unlimited class rifle?
Oh, and I'll put two friends who happen to be "gunsmiths" against the whole damn Remington Custom Shop - Let each of 'em build a rifle, and see which is the most accurate. I'll bring money.
Zak Smith
Member
If ultimate heat stability is your goal, flutes are probably a liability.
bogie
Member
Yup. Faster hot, faster cool means more variation.
If someone's gonna insist on painting something black, go with something like a .223 or a .243... most "real world" tactical shots aren't over 100 yards anyway.
If someone's gonna insist on painting something black, go with something like a .223 or a .243... most "real world" tactical shots aren't over 100 yards anyway.
Zak Smith
Member
Hey, isn't black a better blackbody radiator?
Of course, it absorbs more heat from light, too...
Of course, it absorbs more heat from light, too...
Sunray
Member
"...two similarly constructed rifles of the same brand, one tactical and one sporter, that differ greatly in price..." Compare the price of a Savage 10FP-LE1 at $601.00 list price and their 11F at $486.00. The only difference is the heavy barrel on the LE1.
The term 'tactical' is a marketing term only. There's no such thing as a 'tactical' anything.
The term 'tactical' is a marketing term only. There's no such thing as a 'tactical' anything.
I think a sniper hiking in the jungle/field would be better suited with my 700 ADL sporter than a 13+ lb monstrosity that is in vogue. You better have backup if you plan on banging away such that you need the bull barrel for stability.
The whole thing is a semi-good concept taken to the extreme. In WWII, snipers did not have as good a gun as an off the rack common deer rifle today with a VXIII scope. Lots of people died.
The whole thing is a semi-good concept taken to the extreme. In WWII, snipers did not have as good a gun as an off the rack common deer rifle today with a VXIII scope. Lots of people died.
A tactical rifle is something between a bench rifle and a sporter rifle. It is basically what we used to call a varmint rifle only with more gadgets attached and subdued colors.
I don't get all hung up on these words like some people do. There are people on this board (and on this thread) that absolutely love to put down people that use new words. There is a word tactical. It has definite legitimate uses. Just because you don't use that word in your world doesn't take anything away from it.
The thing about this whole tactical rifle thing that I never understood is that police departments buy these heavy rifles and demand pinpoint accuracy out of them, equip them with all the latest gadgets etc. Yet the average police "sniper" shot is something like 80 yards. You could do that with anything sold at WalMart.
I got a kick out of one of Jeff Coopers columns I read somewhere within the last year. He said something like: I see Gunsite is now offering Precision Rifle classes. I didn't know there was any other kind of rifle shooting.
But, he is wrong. There is another kind of rifle shooting. That is where you are just trying to put rounds into the center of mass as quickly as you can. If you can put all your shots into an area the size of a pie plate at any given distance, that is good enough. If you are shooting tight groups, you arn't shooting fast enough. Gunsite teaches those classes also: their carbine clases. Precision rifle shoting is another story IMO. I guess it might be the difference between running and gunning as opposed to taking very careful shots from a fixed position at an extended range.
I don't get all hung up on these words like some people do. There are people on this board (and on this thread) that absolutely love to put down people that use new words. There is a word tactical. It has definite legitimate uses. Just because you don't use that word in your world doesn't take anything away from it.
The thing about this whole tactical rifle thing that I never understood is that police departments buy these heavy rifles and demand pinpoint accuracy out of them, equip them with all the latest gadgets etc. Yet the average police "sniper" shot is something like 80 yards. You could do that with anything sold at WalMart.
I got a kick out of one of Jeff Coopers columns I read somewhere within the last year. He said something like: I see Gunsite is now offering Precision Rifle classes. I didn't know there was any other kind of rifle shooting.
But, he is wrong. There is another kind of rifle shooting. That is where you are just trying to put rounds into the center of mass as quickly as you can. If you can put all your shots into an area the size of a pie plate at any given distance, that is good enough. If you are shooting tight groups, you arn't shooting fast enough. Gunsite teaches those classes also: their carbine clases. Precision rifle shoting is another story IMO. I guess it might be the difference between running and gunning as opposed to taking very careful shots from a fixed position at an extended range.
bogie
Member
Guilty.
Tactical, schmactical... If it don't shoot where you aim it, a coat of black paint and all the carbon fiber in the world ain't gonna improve it.
And if you don't shoot enough to point it right... Methinx more than a few folks would be better served with a $400 rifle and $320 worth of ammo, than with a $700 rifle and $20 worth of ammo...
Oh, and I do have to admit that I've got a couple of rifles where I've spent $20 on ammo... One's a .300 win mag sporterized enfield, and it's sighted in, and ready for deer season. I can sight in a rifle with two shots, so I've got a bunch more...
The other's a .30-30 - same story.
Of course when I turn around, I can look at 5,000 Bart's Ultra match bullets stacked on top of the safe... Next to a few hundred rounds of .30-06 for the Garand, and a few bricks of.22s...
Tactical, schmactical... If it don't shoot where you aim it, a coat of black paint and all the carbon fiber in the world ain't gonna improve it.
And if you don't shoot enough to point it right... Methinx more than a few folks would be better served with a $400 rifle and $320 worth of ammo, than with a $700 rifle and $20 worth of ammo...
Oh, and I do have to admit that I've got a couple of rifles where I've spent $20 on ammo... One's a .300 win mag sporterized enfield, and it's sighted in, and ready for deer season. I can sight in a rifle with two shots, so I've got a bunch more...
The other's a .30-30 - same story.
Of course when I turn around, I can look at 5,000 Bart's Ultra match bullets stacked on top of the safe... Next to a few hundred rounds of .30-06 for the Garand, and a few bricks of.22s...
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