Tactical Tip from 'the' Larry Vickers

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SkyGuy

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As many of you know I am a consultant for Crimson Trace Lasergrips. I am sure some of you will quit reading right now expecting this to be a 'puff piece' talking about how great they are and not admitting any downside. Those of you in that category certainly don't know me very well.
The following is the reality of visible lasers & Lasergrips according to Larry Vickers with no punches pulled:

I used to think, like many others, that pistol lasers were a joke. Fortunately for me I have not had to eat as much crow over this topic as my good friend Ken Hackathorn but I have eaten my fair share. After giving them an honest assessment here is what it really boils down to: a laser on a pistol offers much the same advantages as red dot reflex sights on a carbine or SMG. Under stress shooting scenarios they make shooting a handgun a much easier task; they are a very useful tool in the toolbox.

I highlight CTC lasers in the night fire portion of my handgun instruction along with night sights and white light principles and techniques. At night and in conditions of limited visibility they are nothing short of awesome; they make accurate handgun shooting easier than any other sighting system currently on the market.

Don't get me wrong, night sights and white light have their place but a visible laser at night rules. Period. Anyone who has had one of my classes or been taught by Ken Hackathorn can attest to that. They dramatically improve the shooters ability to get accurate hits at night. Of course like anything else visible lasers have pros and cons and we will highlight those in detail.

1) Where and when to use lasers - a rule of thumb is any time you have any degree of difficulty seeing your pistol sights then a visible laser will be an advantage. For instance coming into a building from outside even during the day the laser will be of value indoors. Out in bright daylight I prefer my iron sights and find the laser a bit of a distraction.
Anytime you combine low or reduced visibility with shooting on the move or unconventional shooting positions the laser is a distinct advantage. Police have found that visible lasers to be a distinct advantage while using a shield; that would fall into the unconventional shooting position category mentioned above. They are also excellent training aids for watching shooter trigger control as any movement during the trigger squeeze will show up on target. When first using the laser shooters will try and eliminate all movement and early on this can cause shooters snatching or jerking the trigger. Once you learn to accept your wobble zone (which is now more visible due to the visible laser on target) then fast and accurate shooting comes more naturally. Once mastered you can shoot faster and more accurate under low light conditions than you ever could with regular pistol sights or even night sights for that matter.

2) Special Considerations with lasers - As a battery operated device occasionally they will need new batteries. Crimson Trace advertises a 4 hour continuous run time on their laser grips. That is sufficient for most use as I can attest; I have not had to change any batteries to date. Oil, solvents, water and dust can all play a part in making the visible laser less than 100% functional. Because of this they do occasionally need maintenance and cleaning. I know that is a shocker to many but it is probably a good idea once in awhile to make sure your pistol is properly cleaned, lubricated, and maintained. That would include your visible laser aiming device.
I am a believer in having your laser separate from your white light for a couple reasons. You will always have an enhanced night fighting capability even when your white light is removed and you can have serious issues with retaining zero depending on the light/laser mounting system. For these reasons and others I prefer Crimson Trace Lasergrips over accessory rail mounted light/laser units. One downside is CTC does not make Lasergrips for every service pistol on the market so depending on your gun you may not have an option.

3) Durability and reliability - CTC has sold thousands of M9 Beretta Laser Grips to the US Military. They have been received with overwhelming positive feedback. Remember the M9 does not even have night sights so the Lasergrips add a low light capability that simply did not exist before. This is a huge advantage and many of the troops appreciate it.
The visible laser is also very useful for crowd control as the 'red dot' seems to cross all language and cultural barriers. As we know combat is the ultimate test bed and CTC has taken lessons learned in the sandbox and is moving forward with a true milspec M9 Lasergrip: water and dust proof. It is being developed as this is written so it is too soon to project a date when they will be available.

My personal favorite CTC Lasergrips are the S&W J frame versions (every J frame on the planet should have them; it is nothing short of a revolutionary shooting aid on that gun), the model 401 M1911 version, and the M9 Beretta Lasergrips. I use and endorse all three of these.
That is not to say these are the only ones worth using just that they are my favorites. Another little trick is to send the plastic Lasergrips to David Bowie (not the singer) at www.bowietacticalconcepts.com for his superb stippling. This makes them less slippery and because of the way Dave stipples them it actually enhances the appearance of the grips. I was the first to start this trend with David and I would not use a set without it. Highly recommended.

I will close this by saying if you have not tried a visible laser you should. Especially if CTC makes a pair of Lasergrips for your favorite blaster.

Remember they are meant to augment the standard pistol sights, not replace them. They are simply another tool in the tool box.
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I must honestly say I just do not know, never having tried them. But I can tell you for sure that a testimonial from someone paid for making it is not going to change my mind any.

At close to $200 a pop, I am not all that sure I want to find out.
 
Lasers are okay for training. But I don't like the idea of searching for a dot instead of focusing on the the threat and then the front sight.
 
WHO is Vickers, and why should we heed his words? Pardon the ignorance. Why didn't HE post?

C
 
I
must honestly say I just do not know, never having tried them. But I can tell you for sure that a testimonial from someone paid for making it is not going to change my mind any.

At close to $200 a pop, I am not all that sure I want to find out.

+1 I'll be honest and say that I stink shooting a snub nose revolver. I have a S&W .357 that may be traded soon because I rather use it toward a trade for a new Glock .45. A Crimson Trace laser site may make me change my mind about getting rid of my snubbie, but at $200 I'll never find out.
 
Was Vickers paid for this testimonial?

No he wasn't paid for that testimonial. It came off his website as a tactical tip.
Neither were the world class trainers, et al below paid for their endorsements.

Ernie Langdon…..IDPA champion, Marine vet, trainer
Massad Ayoob…..World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
Ken Hackathorn…..international small arms trainer, author, consultant
Mike Dalton…..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion
Bob Taubert..…Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert
Tom Aveni…..Use of force policy expert, police officer, trainer
Marty Hayes…..FAS President, Master handgunner, police officer
Jim Cirrillo
Ted Nugent…..President of United Sportsmen of America, Author and Musician
C. R. Vanderscoff..…Beretta USA, trainer
Eugene Nielsen…..Investigative and Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
Michael De Bethencourt.....Staff instructor of the Northeastern Tactical Schools
Denny Hansen…..SWAT magazine
Rich Verdi..…trainer
Bob Scott.....Vice-Chairman of the Board, Smith & Wesson
Wes Doss…..trainer
A'Tow Avon…..American Survival Guide
Ralph Mroz.....Training Director, Police Officers Safety Association, Firearms Consultant and Author
Todd Jarrett…..World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
Leroy Thompson…..Combat Handguns
Colonel Rex Applegate......

....and the list goes on and on.
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The biggest disadvantage of these is to my wallet. Other than that, they are a good addition for training and high stress, low light shooting. I have a cheapie universall mount laser that I user for training on occasion.
 
Strategy & Tactics sub-forum is not only for the members of THR, and those that lurk that are not members, also for those we members interact with in our private lives.

These lasers are another tool in the toolbox. Yes they cost money , or they may not really have a place in one's life at this time. They may for us at a later time, or when the money is available.
They may be more affordable for another, someone that in their daily affairs really could benefit from this laser being in their toolbox.

As ambassadors of responsible firearm ownership, we can share what we learn from THR, with others.
 
Laser aiming devices have never intrigued me. In low light my night sights are actually more than I want or need in close quarters; in total darkness a laser is worthless as who wants to shine a tiny red dot around a pitch black warehouse looking for assailants? IMHO, Laser sights are just another "tactical toy" to appease those who refuse to PRACTICE under adverse conditions and learn to shoot their handguns accurately and quickly without spending half a day getting the sights to align perfectly. At under seven yards one should be able to hit COM without even seeing their sights. I pick up my carry gun with my eyes closed and stick it out in front of me, if the sights aren't lined up properly there is something wrong with the gun, my grip or my skill level. If I can see a man sized target at less than ten yards, I can hit it. My only use for lights in the dark warehouse would be to throw a maglight across the floor, spinning to reveal what can be seen without drawing fire to myself.
 
sm said: These lasers are another tool in the toolbox. . . As ambassadors of responsible firearm ownership, we can share what we learn from THR, with others.

I agree with sm 100% on both comments.

I've used Crimson Trace lasers. They have utility in specific applications, and people with certain missions or criterias. Some of those people hang here. They have utility, and are another tool in our box.

As long as the Practitioner realizes:
  • they will not resolve problems
  • they will not make up for a lack of practice or skill
  • they have limitations
  • they in and of themselves don't make us more accurate
then they have approached the purpose behind the tool in the right <ahem> light.

As long as we realize their limitations, then we can make proper use of their advantages.
 
You know, I find it astonishing the number of people who have never even handled a laser-sighted gun who nevertheless express vehement opinions about them.

If I sound disgusted, it's because I am.

pax
 
The thing that bothers me about lasergrips is that they are usually right where my index finger goes. What am I supposed to do with my finger now?
 
zahc ~

They are not supposed to be turned on until you are ready to fire. Lasers are a shooting aid, not a target identification tool.

If you are ready to fire, your finger is on the trigger and out of the way of the laser beam.

If your finger is in the way of the laser, you are activating the laser too soon.

pax
 
Its gettin to the point

that I cant see my sights in bright daylight, been wondering if this might be of use? still i need to be able to use something in daylight!
robert
 
You know, I find it astonishing the number of people who have never even handled a laser-sighted gun who nevertheless express vehement opinions about them.

If I sound disgusted, it's because I am.

I am disgusted as well.

Many many years ago another company was doing research and development on a sighting system such as this. This was a long time before I ever needed bifocals, back when I had "Chuck Yeager" eyes , meaning better than 20/20.

As soon as I got wind of this idea, I piped up " I wanna play, and I wanna learn".

Back then cataract surgery was not anywhere like it is now. Retired Sheriff Deputy, one that had top rankings in handgun shooting, qualifications out to 50 yards not feet, but yards and all sorts of medals and rankings...had a cataract.

I wanted this Retired Deputy to try them , he jumped at the chance. We all learned something. He, myself, developers...

I scratched the cornea in my eye, I turned around right after it healed, and damaged it again, and worse. My eyes, my Chuck Yeager Eyes, then I got an infection in the other eye, and my bummed knee decided to go more bum. I was having a bad 2 weeks...

I am young, my knees sucked, but my eyes , my eye to hand coordination better than most...I was gifted with better eye to hand coordination than most as well.

Deputy - "listen, I got a extra set of these for another revolver, I am using with this T&E - you use these while you heal up". Owner of company out of town, or I'd called them to borrow a set of my own.

One never knows the where or when of next encounter - CRSam

You better betcha I used them laser stocks with a patch over one eye, and tearing blurring other eye!

I healed up, back to my old self...
I had two of them laser sights at one time, long time ago, and improvements have been made since. I gave mine to two Servicemen that had lost sight in one eye in conflict.

I have picked the brain of pax and P95Carry here on THR for others that needed assistance in sights for guns, and suggested these to others.

No I do not own a set of laser sights at the moment. No I cannot afford a set, or so I think I cannot. But I guarantee damn you , I know about 'em, I know where I most likely can borrow a set, until I can get my own - because -

Ignorance is condemnation before investigation -Spencer

Disgusted

Steve
 
"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons

"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor

"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute

"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant

"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer

"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate

"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor

"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
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I wish to reply to PAX and explain that I have tried various Laser sighting devices indoors on a 25 yard range in varying degrees of light and darkness over the past twenty plus years I have been one of the range officers at our club. I still stand by my observation that a Laser sight is like an innertube patch, you use it if you have to not because it's good.
 
I have used laser sights and frankly they are not for me. I find the dot more of a distraction than an asset. Now I believe I have given them a good try. I had mine mounted on a pistol and later a rifle to rat hunt with. Close shooting in low light conditions. I found I could aquire hits faster without them.

Does this mean they are no good? Absolutely not! They just do not fit my style of shooting. If my wife wanted one on her revolver I would not hesitate. We quickly condem methods and techniques that through prejudice or lack of need as something without value. Thats not the way to grow and improve. For those who feel they are not proficient with their current method this certainly is one method to try. Its not a cure all, its not going to be the answer for everybody, but if it helps some then good.

I'm really getting tired of the same aurgument here. My bride (who is an average shot at best) has a jframe revolver. I'm tempted to add a grip mounted laser sight to see what it can do for a novice. I think I will talk to her to see if she is interested.

Jim
 
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I used to share the opinion of Mr. Vickers and many members that visible lasers were pretty much useless except when shooting while wearing night vision goggles, visible lasers being much more reasonably priced and available then IR lasers. My opinion has been changed. They are an excellent tool for shooting from unconventional positions where a conventional sight picture may not be possible.

Like every other tool, you have to know how to use them. And you have to know when to use them.

lotus said;
Lasers are okay for training. But I don't like the idea of searching for a dot instead of focusing on the the threat and then the front sight.

Just like any other tool, you have to know how to use it. Many people who try a visible laser for the first time wave their weapon around trying to get the beam on the target. Might look neat on TV when the SWAT team does it, but that's another one of Hollywood's ways of adding a little drama into the story. In real life you want to index your weapon on the target first, then activate the laser. Waving your weapon around trying to put the laser on the target is slow and dangerous to those around you. Focus on the threat, then activate the laser.

Oleg Volk said;
For that reason, I think that Laser Max is a better design.

On paper the laser max looks like it would be the better design. However in practice, I don't think they are reliable enough for serious use. I know too many people who have tried them and found them to be less then reliable.

Reliability is a primary requirement of any tool you use for life support purposes. For a handgun application, Crimson Trace laser grips are all I would use or recommend. That doesn't mean that Laser Max won't work for you. It may well be reliable enough for what you intend to do with it. In my experience they don't hold up in a hard use weapon.

Jeff
 
Likes,dislikes and opinions vary between individuals.I express a vehement negative opinion about them because I have used them and find them to be a distraction and totally unnecessary.
The old lawmen who won so many gunfights didn't have them and they did just fine. Night sights are handy to have. I particularly like one on the front.
Again,if I had to do without it ,I could,and have, on the street for many years. I do not need a red dot to get rounds on target,day or night,if I can see and identify the target.(read that threat.)
 
I know it doesn't make any difference to anyone who wouldn't listen to me that I would listen to Larry Vickers. But I knew him before he became THE Larry Vickers, before his name cropped up in the cover of the gun rags, back when he was just one more hardworking SF soldier. Y'all can listen to him or not- up to you. I can tell you he knows his stuff, but that won't help you if you don't listen.

Seems like some folks sorta want to be beyond help anyway. Prolly time I went and did something besides forum stuff about now, before I rile up a mod or something.

lpl/NC
 
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