Tactical Tip from 'the' Larry Vickers

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WHO is Vickers, and why should we heed his words?
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If you'll take the time to read about Larry Vickers' experience, his accomplishments and his abilities you'll understand his excellent 'reputation' and his 'earned respect' in the gun world.
The man knows what's happening and he can back it up.

Go here for your answers: http://www.vickerstactical.com/about.htm
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Having used pistol lazers since the first one was invented by a local who loaned me one to try:
They seem best on tiny guns with vestigal sights , like snub nosed small frame revolvers. I don't rely on such guns for knowingly going into the face of danger.
Crimson Trace grips are certainly the best of the breed. If they were made of something like Carbon fiber or aluminum I might put them on a serious gun:neener: as it is I detest the Pachmeyer/Hogue like rubber material.

"noted trainers" NOT on your list:
Louis Awerbuck
Scott Reitz
Clint Smith
Pat Rogers
The Blessed Col.(who started it all)Jeff Cooper
and a host of others
:)
 
Hey, I agree with pax; If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. Some old dogs are beyond learning new tricks.
So be it.

"noted trainers" NOT on your list:
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Those trainers are, indeed, well known mt trainers.

Personally, I support the cutting edge, 21st century trainers who have already set the new training standards and are not stuck in the past. Change can be hard, but if the benefits are undeniable, even the old school guys have to open their eyes to stay relevant and to stay in business.

lasers seem best on tiny guns with vestigal sights
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In actual reality Gordon, lasers add precision aiming capabilities to any firearm, from nearly any angle, from over/around/under cover, in low light/darkness....as they project the poi on the threat without taking one's eyes off the threat.
Place the dot and you will hit that spot.

There are innumerable LE agencies, SWAT teams, military forces, spec ops, mercenaries, security folk and civilians that use and are witness to the immediate tactical advantages of laser sights.
Others are still behind the curve, destined to play catch up.
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Lasers are an interesting tool and not for me. I have shot with them.

I have met 3 guys on Sky Guy's list of noted gun folks who sing the praise of lasers, and not one had a laser on their carry gun at the time.

Maybe this is something that can be trained out of folks, but is a problem with lasers for many folks is something Clint Smith (another noted gun person) stated in one of his HIT classes. Paraphrasing from memory, "People spend more time concentrating on the laser dot and what the dot is doing and not paying attention to what the target is doing and so their reactions are slowed in responding to what the target does."

I have seen this as well, but like I said, maybe it is something that proper training will help alleviate.
 
As I see it lasers are used in two ways. Target aquisition and target verification (hit location). The aquisition part seems to be fairly quick (walking the laser to the target) The verification is where I see the hesitancy. I don't know if people are distracted by the dot or attracted to steading the dot into a specific location. If you swung the laser to target and pulled the trigger it could be preformed quickly. For what ever reason, lack of training is my guess its not done. Another issue is if when you illuminate the laser and all you have to do is verify location prior to shooting you eventialy have to ask if the laser is in fact necessary.

Jim
 
Hello my name is DW, and I am NOT being paid.

I am a former Marine and have little bit of experience with firearms. Admittedly I can not shoot 2" 10 shot groups with an SKS at 500 yards like some people I have heard, but I am OK.

I will never own another pistol without a system at least as good as CT Lasers. It seems to me that the dot helps in any situation that comes to mind. I know I fire faster more accurately with than without. I believe I will fire more accurately under stress. I believe that an enemy is more likely to be frightened by the laser, and I gain the advantage. I know that if I cannot attain proper sight picture, or have to fire left handed I will be better with than without. With CT, I do not have to "remember" to flick a switch, it comes on when I grip the pistol. And if the laser fails (has not ever happened in the years I have owned and used it), then I am no worse off with than without it. It is the very definition of win-win.

My chances of surviving a close encounter of the unpleasant kind are improved much more by a $200 feature adjustment than by shooting a little more ammo this year.

DW
 
Lasers have their place...however, that does not mean that an every day shooter needs one either. Lasers do not correct trigger pull and/or other shooter-induced problems. Only practice and trigger time corrects these problems.

I have been to several dog a pony demos by expert "Y", "X", and "Z" and while they do a excellent job of selling these must have gadgets the truth is that when the student shows up to a class taught by Matt Temkin or I they quickly find out that it actually slows them down. Lasers are not an adequate substitute for learning the fundamentals of shooting and I see this time and time again with new shooters.

With this said, lasers do allow a person to separate the gun from body, i.e. shooting with a ballistic shield etc. These types of applications are where laser are handy to have.
 
7677, I would like to politely say...

You are wrong.

Lasers do not correct trigger pull and/or other shooter-induced problems
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When I teach people to shoot well enough, first I use my laser and no rounds. I put a target up, and watch the laser when they fire.
down+left, compensating for recoil
sharp left or right, trigger pull
etc

Then they get rounds and we only have to work on natural pause and remembering the fundamentals when there is a +bang.
 
I don't know what there is to be "disgusted" about in this thread. So, some have a differing opinion about using a laser grip. I don't understand why that's a personal affront to some.

I think they have a place and are a good option, but if someone else doesn't think so, I don't feel threatened or "disgusted". Big deal.
 
Kestrel ~

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not disgusted by disagreement (that's life!). I was and am disgusted by opinionated ignoramuses -- people who have vehement opinions without a whit of personal experience to back those opinions up. People who express opinions without having either real knowledge or actual experience are the bane of online life.

The only thing more disgusting than opinionated ignoramuses are outright liars, people who misrepresent either their experience or their qualifications in order to make their opinions sound better. If the facts are on your side, you don't need lies to back them up. If the facts aren't on your side, all the lies in the world won't make them so.

Bottom line for me? I like a good debate. And it doesn't matter what side you take on such issues, really. But if you don't have either genuine knowledge or personal experience, your opinion ain't worth a bucket of warm spit. And if you lie about your experience, you don't belong on THR.

pax
 
I don't see any logical (not operator error related) reason why a laser would be slower than using sights. With sights you index on target, verify front sight, then fire. With laser, you index on target, verify dot and fire. If you are walking the dot in or searching for it you are not shooting properly, unless in the awkward shield or cover positions that make this necessary.

It would be a little slower than Point Shooting because with PS there is no verification process. The laser extends the range and accuracy beyond what the average PS can accomplish though. I like all the "use night sights" comments, but I have never seen one on a revolver and many people CCW those. Sure, you could get one put on custom, but in the real world, revo owners just don't do this (how many NS equipped revolvers has anyone seen?). It is easier to slap a pair of CT lasergrips on.

I aggree with PAX that vehement opinions without experience are annoying. They really stand out too, because if some highly experienced people think something is good, the odds of it really being "tacticool junk" are probably slim with the truth being somewhere in the middle. Good for some, good in some circumstances, perhaps even indespensible in a narrow few. Not the best thing since the brass cartridge and not junk either.
 
pax said: I was and am disgusted by opinionated ignoramuses -- people who have vehement opinions without a whit of personal experience to back those opinions up. People who express opinions without having either real knowledge or actual experience are the bane of online life.
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Agreed 100%. pax, I often find myself about to reply to some ridiculous statement in a thread until I come to your response, see you've addressed it, smile and decided to stay silent. You handle nonsense deftly and directly. And you have here. I share your belief system, and appreciate seeing the focus on common sense and reality you bring to the table.

Double Naught Spy said: I have met 3 guys on Sky Guy's list of noted gun folks who sing the praise of lasers, and not one had a laser on their carry gun at the time.
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I've worked my live fire shoothouse at the NTI for the past 6 years, and been studying with the Team since 1999. During those events I've RO'd Farnam, Holschen, Hamilton, Givens and his Rangemaster staff, Wiestrand . . . . others less recognizable but still very proficient and knowledgeable trainers . . . I can't remember seeing any of them with a laser on their carry gun.

If I expect anyone to embrace new technology, its John Farnam. That man shows up to each NTI with a new gun to try, he'll sometimes ask to come back and run the same stage with a different gun to test it. He would be who marketing types love, the "early adapter". He's always looking to evaluate tools. Lasers have their place. Its not sweeping the market. But, it has its role for them that have a need.


The one time I saw it was actually detrimental was when I and a few Team Members were spending a week with Jim Garthwaite building 1911's. One member wanted them on his, and he wanted an ambi safety. Because of the laser housing on the CT panel, he had to file down the right lever significantly. The result was a less than positive safety for left handed use. All it meant was . . . he had to find a way to work around it.

Left handed 1911 users - be advised that Ambi safeties require modification to use the CT.
 
Interesting....
I am wrong but by your own words prove exactly what I said. You as instructor are teaching your students the fundamentals of trigger control and using the laser as a training aide. Which there is nothing wrong with.

My point was ...if lasers automatically did this for the shooter there would be no need to teach and/or show your students trigger control would there? Gadgets alone are not a substitute for learning the fundamentals of shooting. However, as you pointed out that these same gadgets can at times make teaching trigger control easier due to the feedback the student receives.
 
Oh goodness, I see what you are saying and agree, though I would put it differently.

Simply buying a car is not going to get you from Boston to San Diego in 5 days. You need to know how to drive too. I do not thing that having to learn to drive lowers the practical value of a car though.

I do know that once I show my range guests what to do to hit the target, and what they are doing wrong (those fake plastic bullets are awesome for that), they can usually figure out what is happening.

I also know that when I decide to see how fast I can accurately push rounds downrange, that laser rocks.

BTW they are not students so much as guests. Admittedly, I am a bit of an anal-retentive illegitimate son when taking a "new to me" person to the range. I have insisted on giving a short class to people who have told me they have been shooting for decades. I say "then you will understand". 4 rules. sight alignment/sight picture. 4 rules. basic marksmanship (as above). 4 rules. clearing jams and finally tie it together with 4 rules.

Also my wife (first guest) taught me that when I decide it is time for rounds, only put one in the magazine. She was scared by the pop and started fumbling the loaded gun in a mad rush to put it down. But in her fear, she never pointed it down the line, so I married her.

\/\/
 
DW,
Don't sweat the small stuff. That is risk one takes with communicating with text because once its written it is up to the receiver to translate it and each person translates it with their own set of experiences.
 
I like my laser - gives me advantages and options I didn't have before.

If my opponent(s) choose not to have the same advantages - better for me!:D
 
I have Crimson trace grips on my snubbie. It gives me an option. I usually keep it turned off in the daytime. I think it might be a little slower because I find myself trying to get the dot perfect, whereas with the iron sights I pretty much get a rough sight picture and squeeze. That's just a training issue. I like the idea of being to aim around cover better, or if an arm is disabled.

I also own a Laser Max for my Glock 17. I use it only for training. It's awkward to turn on, especially if I'm also using a light. The whole point of the glock is simplicity, and I don't really want any more switches. I also prefer the solid dot of Crimson trace to the flashing dot of Laser Max.

I think the whole controversy comes when people oversell something and so others react to the other extreme. Every tool and technique has its benefits and its problems. Weigh the pros and cons and decide.

We should be beyond the Beavis and Butthead method of evaluating things, as either "it's cool" or "it sucks." There is a middle ground, which is where grownups hang out.
 
Springmom,

Get the model Crimson Trace Lasergrip model LG-405 for your J frame. Once you have it you'll never look back!

crim_sw_j_round.jpg


I got mine here for $229: http://www.oneclickshooting.com/default.asp

Crimson Trace Laser Grip LG405 Smith & Wesson J Frame
LG-405 Rubber Overmold SMALLER THAN THE LG305!!! Front-Activation button Rubber Overmold construction Fully adjustable windage and elevation Master On/Off switch Three-year warranty Innovative recoil reduction pocket on top of backstrap.
Fits Models: Airlight, Airweight, Bodyguard, Chiefs Special, Centennial, Ladysmith, models 36, 37, 38, 49, 60, 63, 317, 331, 332, 337, 340, 342, 351, 360, 442, 637, 638, 640, 642, 649, 651 and 940.
Technical Specifications: Beam Intensity - 5mw peak, 633nm, class IIIa laser. Maximum output that federal law and technology allow. Dot Size - Approximately 0.5" diameter at 50 feet. Power Source - Two #2032 lithium batteries (included); over four hours of on-time use and a five year shelf life.
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The laser's good for practicing sans ammo. You can buy new batteries a lot cheaper than a box of ammo for most guns. Point shooting, trigger control, without spending money on ammo. Seems like it would make a good tool for home defense at night.
Got one on my 1911... I love it.
 
I have a Kimber Ultra Carry that came with CT grips from the factory. Even has a Kimber logo on it :cool: I like the feel of the rubber grips, to each his own. If you don't like rubber grips, then I doubt you'll like the CT.

Now that we have that out of the way.......

When I'm at the range I turn it off until I'm down to my last few mags, then I'll turn it back on, shoot the last 20-30 rounds with the laser on, just so I'm used to it. It is always on when holstered/CCW'd.

When it was new (to me) I found that I spent way to much time trying to get the little red dot dead center in the target and not paying attention to the sight picture. That's why I practice mostly without it, to reinforce concentrating on the sight picture.

It can be a crutch that you depend on or it can be another tool among many, it all depends on how you apply it.
 
Skyguy, how about a loaner for my 638 for an unbias report in about 30 days?
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I surely would if we were in the same AO. All I can do from here is offer my honest opinion.

Beyond pointshooting range, lasers excel.
Besides all the immediate tactical advantages, Lasergrips are a great training aid and a quick confidence builder. Especially on snubbies, they help to reinforce both muscle memory and accurate shot placement.

You get a Lasergrip for your wife and the odds are she'll end up outshooting you in low light and darkness.
And hey, if she doesn't like em, they're easy to sell.
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