Okay a few points.
I don't think ANYONE here is relishing the idea of going up against multiple well-armed and trained terrorists with long-guns. This conversation is about tactics if presented with this or a similar situation.
I bet EVERYONE here agrees that rifles beat pistols.
3 against 1, or whatever, are terrible odds. Duh.
These above points should be abundantly clear... so not sure why the continued debate.
But how do you survive and possible WIN this situation, and what does winning look like to you? That is a personal question to answer. Well armed. Yep. Planned. Yep. Possibly body armor. Yep. Can you defeat them? Absolutely. Do you engage? It depends, but if you do, it's winnable.
1) First priority, save yourself. 2) Save anyone else you can save. 3) Fight the fight if you are backed into a corner.
I'm in a profession that expects me to go to the gunfire. However, no one ever won a gunfight by getting themselves killed. Tactics are paramount in an asymmetric battle like that one. A few of the things I tell the guys who work for me to consider are:
1) Find a position of cover
2) Identify your route(s) of retreat
3) Make distance your friend
4) Take careful, aimed shots at the enemy
I'd be 1000% more happy to go into one of these situations with a long gun in hand, and I carry one at work (as do most of my officers). Even without my rifle, I carry over 50 rounds on my person at all times (sometimes north of 60) for a full-frame duty gun, and I also bring a bunch of friends with guns to these fights. Taking these terrorists out as a lone citizen with a CCW pistol is going to be very hard. Remember, these are trained and prepared combatants, wearing body armor, carrying battle rifles, and outnumbering you 3-to-1... As for the suggested scenario where a gun owner is available on the balcony level of an apartment just above the spot where such a shooting is taking place (where a camera operator was in this case)… well, that would be a very good thing, but seems rather unlikely. In that position it's an absolutely winnable scenario for the capable and equipped shooter.
Obviously each person is going to have to make a decision if they're ever carrying when a situation like this starts. But, lets not pretend that this is an easily winnable fight.
Agreed.
But THIS scenario, and others like it, are quite winnable. Take out 1 of these 2 with an ambush pistol from an elevated position, and you create a LOT of problems. The other guy loses 50% of his team and needs to then decide to abort, rescue his guy, flee, or continue on his own... injuries are a huge liability for a small group like this.
I will give these guys credit - the managed to get armaments that are totally prohibited in France (AK47s and RPGs according to the news). It appears they *may* have had body armor, also presumably difficult to get. But body armor has vulnerabilities - legs and head and arms. To someone operating in a small team with no immediate extraction or larger force en route, being wounded in the leg or arm or otherwise immobilized is as good as dead. For instance, a 9mm shot to the left elbow means that the support arm is useless, effectively taking one AK wielder out of the fight. Hit him in the leg and he can't run well. Any blood loss in such a situation will cause dizziness and other medical problems for an attacker.... (I am not suggesting you can AIM to hit the elbow or hand or knee or whatever, but hits on flesh is the point I'm making, and even with a ballistic vest/plates, 75% of the body is still exposed including critical areas).
Their shot groups on that windshield were well-aimed and not wild.
However, I'd question the "well-trained" part. I'm no superstar Soldier, but have had infantry and advanced infantry style training, and in my training I know enough that you don't move in pairs like they did with no cover (you bound), someone must cover the rear, and you bound between cover... unless of course you don't expect resistance. But these guys didn't move very tactically. And of course the big picture is that they are misguided that they could escape long term. News is they are dead today, within 48 hours from the attack. Given the evaded and fled, that wasn't the desired outcome.
If you observe, these men are both exposed in the street at the same time repeatedly, within 10 steps tightly together, and both facing the same direction at all times. That tells me they are undisciplined and NOT well trained.
If you had to engage them with an AK or AR, they would be easy targets.
As for handguns from a rooftop, I disagree with Trent on many points, including the time to determine where gunfire is coming from instantly, or the danger level. NOTE - when you shoot from a window, you don't hang out of the window. You remain concealed within the room, standing back from the window. It makes it harder to find the window to return fire to. When you fire, you're target hears echos and when they look up they'll see dozens of possible windows with which to return fire. It would disrupt their operation and make them choose to stand in the street to engage, or flee/take cover EVEN IF YOU MISS them. Disrupting them is a win. It buys valuable time for law enforcement.
As for "cowboys" with concealed guns, we have daily instances in the USA where CCW holders prevent/stop armed attackers. This is not dis-similar. Lots of armed attackers here are ruthless thugs willing to kill and armed with long guns or handguns. And if you pay attention you can see that armed people thrawt attacks daily.
Lastly, this isn't a thread necessarily about FRANCE's gun control, or lack thereof. It was an off-handed general remark. I am no expert on France's particular gun control, but know in general that I CANNOT carry a gun there or get a gun if I visit. I did some light reading this AM here:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/daniel-zimmerman/mon-dieu-a-review-of-french-gun-laws/ and take it at face value with no indepth research because frankly I care little about France's laws.... Several categories A, B, C, etc. Cat A is similar to our NFA and totally banned.
Category B includes anything shorter than 47cm, including handguns, or semi-automatic, with a removable magazine and a capacity larger than three rounds, and requires a sports shooting license to own. How do you get a sports shooting license? Be an active shooting club member and hit the range at least three times a year, go see a doctor every year who attests that you are physically and mentally capable of owning a firearm and prepare for some major paperwork.
Once you have cleared the hurdles of French bureaucracy, prepare to rinse and repeat every three years, as category B ownership is contingent on a time-limited authorization that can be revoked at a whim by the local police. Case in point: pump-action shotguns. Once available to hunters in category C, they were reclassified to category B in 1995 because of their perceived use in violent crimes.
Owners who did not want to become sports shooters and acquire the necessary three-year licenses had to turn them in to be destroyed, with some sources claiming as high as 500.000 weapons meeting an early demise. To illustrate how little sense the law made, it was only applied to smooth bore pump-action shotguns, so a rifled Maverick 88 is still in category C because it is considered a manually-repeating rifle rather than a shotgun....
Category C is the universe of hunting weapons with everything from bolt-action rifles and lever guns to three-round limited, semi-automatic weapons with tilting non-detachable magazines – think California, only worse. Ownership is for life but, as was the case for pump guns, French gun owners are always just one movie franchise-reboot away from seeing an entire group of firearms moved into a higher category.
Category C weapons can be acquired with either a sports shooting license or a hunting license and must be declared to the local police office for firearms and explosives. Unlike sports shooting licenses, hunting licenses require you to take a theory and practice exam that covers areas such as safety, laws, huntable and protected species and even questions on different dog breeds. However, all of this can be done with two weeks of studying and a day of exams, a far cry from the regulations in other European countries like Germany, where getting a hunting permit can take anywhere from a month to a year of intensive instruction.
Category D basically includes everything that couldn’t be squeezed into the previous three categories, such as pellet guns under 10 joules (over 10 is category C).
What does that mean for the gun owner in France? Pure silliness is the best way to describe it. You need a three-year renewable police authorization and a shrink-check to own a single-shot 22. sporting pistol but you only need a life-time hunting license to buy and declare indefinite ownership of a 6+1 Marlin lever-gun in 45.70.
It gets better though, as you can buy and own a category C lever-rifle in 357. magnum but you can’t buy the ammo because it’s category B…oops. No worries though, 44. magnum is fine, the ammo and the rifle are both in category C. Makes sense right?
Let’s not forget that all .223, .308, .30-06, and even .303 British ammo is category B, meaning it is inaccessible to hunters, while significantly less dangerous calibers such as 300 WM are in category C.