Talk Me Down from the Edge of Overboard

[Ed Ames]

I have a problem and I need some sense talked into me, or at least some perspective.

One of my favorite plinking guns is a .45c single action revolver. I only have one but it's lots of fun. I load for it and with lead bullets it's fairly cheap too. Mine is not a Ruger/safe for overpressure loads.

I've recently been wanting to take the power up a notch. The first thought was a stronger .45c, but then there is the concern about an overpower load getting in the weak gun. .454 casull answers that. Oh, and I want a double action just because.

Standard super redhawks are so monumentally ugly I won't own one. The Ruger Alaskan is fine but the 2.5" barrel goes a long way towards undoing the increased power capability of the .454.

Taurus has a few reasonable looking models... we all know the potential downsides too. I haven't handled one.

S&W seems to jump straight to the .460. At 68 ounces (5" barrel) it's pushing what I'd call reasonable. The 2.75" model drops the weight to 54oz but seems like a sacrifice (after compensator you are still losing 1.25" of barrel length. S&W has a better trigger than the ruger.

I'm in danger of ending up with a very silly .460 when all I really want is a .45 with more oomph unless someone can talk some sense into me. Are there other options I should be considering?

 

[BCRider]

There used to be one of the heavier framed Rugers chambered for .45LC. Not sure if it was the Redhawk or not. Perhaps begin the hunt for one of those and just be patient until it shows up? And yeah, I have to agree that the SRH is a bit ugly. But I don't really find them to be as ugly as the big framed S&W's. Although a 5 inch 460 isn't too bad I guess. The long barrel 500 is just WAY over the top though.

There's nothing at all subtle about any of the big bang cartridges from the ones I've shot so why worry about the launching platform being big and over the top? I've shot some very showey H110 reloads from a S&W 460 and MAN! DOES! IT! THROW! ONE! MEAN! FIREBALL! ! ! ! Really makes you crave some rare red meat for dinner if you know what I mean And yet being a slower powder and having a compensator the push is actually quite tolerable and fun. I've also shot some factory ammo in .500 and frankly for fun shooting I didn't like the sharp snap to it. Too hard on the hand and forearm despite the compensator. Not to mention that with the rapid powder burn it doesn't make for much of a show.

 

[Oro]

My answer to this dilemma when trying to hot-rod a .45acp a few years ago was this:

S&W 629-1 "lew Horton" model in 3". Obviously, you can get whatever barrel length/grip/etc you want. But to me, .44 magnum was the power answer that I needed without getting exotic or really limiting my ammo choices or reloading databases. I had the same feeling as you when looking at the Rugers, and the .460 was just overkill for my needs, and the size was a big negative.

As I learned, despite it not really registering to me, the .44Magnum is a wonderfully versatile cartridge. If you need a .454 or .460, by all means, go get it. But don't ignore doing some homework into what you can do with a .44mag.

 

[Ed Ames]

My concern with getting another .45c gun is I don't want to risk loading hot .45c into my current not-so-strong revolver. Casull solves that...I can run .45c or .454 in the strong gun but won't accidentally blow up the weaker gun. .460 is the same in spades but as I understand it using shorter cases in the .460 can cause extraction problems - I don't know how big a deal that is.

I appreciate the 44 mag advice. A 6" 29 is available for the asking but for some reason I like the .45.

 

[kanook]

so you have answered your own question. buy a 454 to get your power and only shoot 454 in it. get a 460 when the 454 is no longer enough. keep your firearms clean and have a ......well you know

 

[Ed Ames]

So do any DA .454 revolvers exist that aren't hideously ugly (Super Redhawk), of questionable pedigree (Taurus), or rather specialized (Ruger Alaskan)?

At this point it's a 3-way tie between the Taurus, the Alaskan, and the S&W 460.

 

[General Geoff]

I'd just be careful about not mixing your hotter loads with standard pressure ones, and get a new Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt. It's a fantastic looking wheelgun, and is strong enough to handle "Ruger-only" loads (AFAIK).

 

[Ed Ames]

That redhawk is nice.

I just hate leaving the potential for a regrettable mix-up. I actually ran into that a while ago with some black powder reloads. I had one gun I didn't mind running them in, another gun I did. Well, they all went on the shelf for a few months, there is a move, and suddenly I can't 100% say which is which. That's not much of an issue but if we were talking 12,000CUP vs. 30,000CUP I have a real concern.

 

[Virginian]

Get a .45 Blackhawk or Vaquero and pay attention to what you are doing. I have 44 Magnums and 44 Specials. I have loaded souped up Specials to shoot in the Ruger 44 Magnums, and I have had two Colt clones that would chamber a loaded 44 Magnum round, but I haven't blown anything up yet. All ya' got to do is pay attention. Put all your reloads in translucent boxes and label them clearly with removable stick on labels.

 

[Ed Ames]

If you have .44sp and .44mag brass why make hot .44sp loads? I can see (and have done) light (.44sp level) loads in .44mag brass but not the other way around.

Anyway, I agree it is doable.

 

[pmeisel]

If it was me I'd get the Redhawk and develop an idiot proof ammo-marking routine. I don't like any of the other double action choices you mention.

Now if you could live with a single action, the Freedom Arms 454 is beautiful.....

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

You would have to go to a single-action, but you could get a Ruger Blackhawk and handload it to "Ruger Blackhawk only" specs, or purchase one of the pre-made heavy loads.

 

[336A]

First off what do you need more power for? A standard pressure .45 colt with a 250gr-270gr SWC @ 900FPS is more than enough for most chores needing to be tackled with a handgun. Your .45 SAA is more than up to the task for that type of load as well. I personally don't get much pleasure firing full house .41-.44 mag for informal target practice. I can't imagine something bigger than those two, ouch comes to mind pretty quickly. If it is for punching paper or other informal taget/plinking that will get expensive quick with the big boomers. However if it is something that you must have just because get whatever blows yer' skirt up for ya'.

 

[Ed Ames]

Other than maybe switching from cast lead to gas checks or jackets, how does the ammo price change significantly?

I like to keep my current .45 down around the 250gr @ 700FPS range. It's not that it can't take standard loads but it wasn't built for smokeless powder so why push it? I agree that 900-1000FPS is a decent speed and much of what I load will probably be in that range.

I'm also planning to get a matched lever gun. The hot .45c or .454 from a carbine seems like a decent brush gun. If I carried the pair I'd like to be able to use one ammo for both.

 

[PattonTime]

45 Colt

I also like the 45 Colt I have built up a nice for me , arsenal. Here goes

Freedom arms Model 97 plus 45acp cylinder why ? it came with on a trade
Freedom arms Model 83 454 casull
Magnum Research BFR 45 Colt Plus power " my favorite to shoot "
Colt Anaconda 45 colt

Recently sold my 25-5 Smith for the same reason I was afraid i would blow it up and
the only thing nice is that it was a great blue

I would recomend the BFR, I don't think they catalog the plus 45 any more but
I would just get the Casull and load it up or down
P.S. Ruger casts the frames thru their Pine Tree division for both Freedom and Magnum
So the difference is features and finishing.

 

[Stainz]

My first DA revolver was bought so I could launch the .45 Colts my BH, Bisley BH, & Vaquero shot. It was the admittedly techno-ugo .454 7.5" SRH. I would later own a 5.5" RH, too. During that period, I discovered S&W - via the 625 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. My wife bought me a new 625-7 ('01 production). That outdid the Rugers for 25 & 50yd groups with standard .45 Colts.



Acquiring a second 625MG, actually an older -6 from '96, sealed the fate for my Rugers. The MGs - and a Rossi/Puma 24" SS M1892 - represent my entire .45 Colt collection now. I am happy! Note, while others load the 25/625 .45 Colts hotter, as they reason it was designed for the .45 ACP at 21/22 kpsi, I stay down in the .45 Colt realm - and find happiness there. A 255gr LSWC - or a Speer #4484 250 gr GDJHP - at nearly 900 fps from a 4" N-frame is nothing to sneeze at. A great plus - you can use wood grips and not blister your hand.

Of course, a .45 ACP 625 - like my 625JM - can launch .45 Auto Rims loaded with the same bullets at the same velocity (or higher) as well as standard .45 ACP ball ammo for easy-to-find/frugal ammo. That further muddies the water. I know, you were talking about the .454/.460 level of performance. My favorite there was the Hornady 240gr XTP in .454 Casull - made 1995 fps from my 7.5" SRH - 2,130 fps ft-lb. Yeah, that beats you up nice and proper. The .45 Colts from my 625MG were just more fun... and I could still hear - and use my shooting hand - afterwards. YMMV.

Stainz

 

[Ed Ames]

Those are some nice guns. S&W does make a nice revolver.

The 1892/revolver pair is exactly what I'm after in the long run. 20" stainless and probably .454. The cheap alternative ($200 or so less at a guess) would be an encore carbine barrel. I'm told the .454 likes/needs the longer loads, but being a lever gun it doesn't mind light loads.

Now I need to find some prices. The S&W X-frames are $800 for 5" ($700 for 2.75"), and the others tend to be less but none of these are exactly common.

 

[Stainz]

My early combo - before the earlier MG arrived:



That 24" tube gets the last few fps from a .45 Colt. A case in point - the high speed, ie, thick walled, 200gr Gold Dot that GA Arms loads. It makes 1123 +/-8 fps from my 4" 625MG - rising to 1424 +/-6 fps from my 24" Puma. Comparing my below max 250gr LRNFP over 6.1gr Titegroup loads, they made 850/1054 fps from the 4"/24" tubes. That's not stellar - but not bad, either. The Puma came pre-drilled/tapped for the Marbles Tang Site. It is a great way to pop shotgun clays - and subsequent larger shards - at 100yd.

Check current .460 Magnum prices - they aren't $800 - closer to a kilobuck.

Stainz

 

[Ed Ames]

Yup... that's exactly what I'm going for... except I keep falling into that "2000 is better than 1500" trap. :banghead:

I can't be 100% on the price without buying but I received a new retailer catalog a few days ago and the 5" .460 with holster, ammo pouch, and case was $799. The bear kit setup was $849, and the 2.75" (available with either fiber optic or orange insert sights) was $699. They may not actually have them in stock of course... but assuming they do add shipping, tax, and transfer at usual rate (maybe $100) for a final price.

 

[Ed Ames]

Just had a chance to shoot a cylinder of casull and 2 rds of .460 through someone's 2.75" S&W (that was my guilt limit -- expensive ammo).

Casull was a kick, the .460...

It's a good thing for my wallet that the gun stores are all closed for the night. Hopefully I'll regain my sanity by morning.

 

[devildog66]

A .460 SW will also shoot both 454 and 45 LC. Just to further mess up your dope... Load those .45 LC as hot as you dare!

I personally gave up the .45 LC chase and am happy as a cat in a seafood store with my SW 29 and oodles of 44M factory loads to choose from.

 

[Ed Ames]

I personally gave up the .45 LC chase and am happy as a cat in a seafood store with my SW 29 and oodles of 44M factory loads to choose from.

I suppose I should've pointed out that there is a m29/44 carbine pair around here somewhere already. The m29 is fine but I want more out of the carbine.

What I want in my calmer moments is exactly what Stainz posted a picture of, except for a 20" barrel and able to take continuous hot loads. The .454 lever gun seems perfect but I haven't found a .454 revolver to match the .45C revolver in Stainz's picture. Something about it not existing.

Re: shooting .45C from the .460... does any long term harm come from it? How much does accuracy suffer compared to light loads from .460 brass?

I really wish someone had a .460 lever gun but I don't think it will happen.

 

[BCRider]

I suspect you'd run into the same issue with a .45LC/.460 ammo swapping as what happens in the .38/.357 revolvers. Namely that the shorter cases would allow a powder residue ring buildup at the end of the shorter cases. So if you shoot a lot of the "little" 45LC's then you may have trouble inserting or ejecting the longer .460 or .454 cases until you clean it.

My solution to this burning issue? I made up my own variation of Russian Roulette called Revovler Roulette... I load 5x.38 and stick in one .357. Then while redirecting my view so I can't see the cylinder clearly I give'r a little spin and lock it home. Not knowing where the BB (Big Bang) will come sure does show you if you've got your flinch under control. And with the far bigger jump between 45LC and the other big rounds it would be even more of a grin And as a side benifit the random long round going off seems to nicely pulverize the residue ring or at least greatly extend the times needed for a good cleaning.

 

[EnsignJimmy]

I have little worry about getting hot .45 Colt loads into my standard-pressure guns, or my BP-only antiques. Mostly because I'm using different bullets for each application. Standard-pressure .45 Colt is happiest with 225 to 260 grain lead SWC bullets. My black-powder bullets are all 255 grain lead conicals, and for hot .45 Colt loads, I don't like to use anything less than 300 grain bullets.

The .45 Colt is the sort of cartridge which encourages you to take a more relaxed outlook on life. Lots of lead + modest velocities = win. My favorite heavy load drives a 335 grain bullet to ~1100 ft/sec from my Bisley Blackhawk, will hit with just as much momentum at 100 yards as a 300 grain one that left at 1300 ft/sec, and will hit harder at 100 yards than a 255 grain bullet that left the barrel at 1450 ft/sec. And there's no possible way one can confuse a 300 to 335 grain pill sitting atop a .45 Colt case with a dinky little 255 grain one, so my heavy stuff doesn't get anywhere near guns that can't handle it.

 

[m-g willy]

I've got a model 92 rossi in 45 colt that is used for hunting with HOT loads!
I also have a Uberti SAA that I would never fire these loads in.
The way I make sure not to get the hot rounds in the SAA is I only load the hot rounds in nickle plated cases.
Just make sure you never shoot a nickled plated round in the weaker guns.