Talk me into/out of a Colt Delta Elite or a Glock 20

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So your saying Colt and SW stopped making 10mm because shooters hands were to small.

Get real, the true reason they stopped selling them is because very low demand and sales.
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These two statements are not necessarily in conflict, if sales were low because the guns were too big.

I thought the standard answer was: the FBI's temporary adoption of the 10mm showed that many agents (perhaps the smaller agents) couldn't use full-power 10mm to their advantage, in terms of rapid and accurate fire. And once you download the 10, well, of course, why use the "long" case? That gave us the .40.

Why hasn't it caught on? It has caught on, just hasn't caught fire. And it won't. The "rejection" by LE is not a marketing plus, as many shooters are influenced by that.

No matter. There are a lot of ballistically successful cartridges that aren't commercial successes. I've been listening to predictions of the demise of 10 and .41 Mag for 2-3 decades now; the rumors of their deaths are somewhat exaggerated. They, and others, continue to be favored by those who need or want their superior (or Goldie Locks) ballistics.

Oh, the .458 Winchester Magnum is the best example of a ballistic failure that was a commercial success.
 
I love the facts found on the Internet.

The FBI never gave up on the 10mm because of recoil issues. The decision to download the 10mm to achieve less recoil was done before it was ever issued to field agents. This was done by the person running the 10mm evals at Quantico, (Patrick can't remember his last name off the top of my head) They actually used his personal Delta Elite, which Colt started making after the demise of the Bren Ten.

The main reasons the FBI gave up on the 10mm are 2.

1. S & W came to them with the 40 caliber which could be built on a 9mm frame, saving money and weight. They quickly lost interest in the 10mm

2. The FBI required Smith to build the 1076 with a frame mounted decocker without a safety. The other Smith 10 series had the decocker/safety mounted on the slide.. There were repeated problems with the trigger fire control system because of this new design, which Smith has fixed with a factory upgrade. (Look for 2 small dots under the decocker lever to insure the upgrade) Smith eventually got all the bugs worked out but by then the FBI had adopted the 40.

The claim that the FBI gave up on the 10mm because of recoil is pure Internet Bravo Sierra. Weight was also a factor, but not all the other claimed "facts" you read on the Internet.

As I said, I have 3 DE, 3 10 series S &W (1006, 1066, 1076) and a G29 with a Storm Lake 4.48" extended barrel. I shoot the hottest ammo you can buy (Swampfox, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap).

Never had a single problem from any of them. Range Ammo can be had for the price of 40 from Georgia Arms. and others SD ammo is pricy but after testing, how much do you buy?

Like most everything, it's personal choice. But use facts to evaluate your choice, not Bravo sierra you read on the Internet from folks who probably don't even own a 10mm but feel compelled to bad mouth your choices or criticize a gun brand they don't even own.

My .02. YMMV.
 
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My preference has been the 1911 platform for the 10MM hence I agree with the Colt decision.

I my world there is no arguement worth considering against the 10MM or the guns produced in that caliber. I my opinion it is the defensive round of choice. I handload for diversity and purchase factory ammo for defensive selection. There is nothing in my statement against any other cartridge - I just believe the 10MM is the answer.

Hey I shoot a ton of 45 automatic as well. It is nice to have options.
 
You can pick and parse my statements all you want-the S&W 1076 was FBI specific in it's initial development. Yes, it was too large/heavy of a platform for some agents' hands to be effectively used for Duty. There is no "...drop in sales/demand" when you have government contracts to fulfill! Do you understand the government contract principles, wherein every 1076 handgun produced, is/was actually sold?

I see you don't want to discuss any of the companies that are still producing 10mm firearms: Dan Wesson, Wilson, STI, Fusion, Glock, and on and on. If you cannot afford to shoot or reload 10mm that's fine, but please stop spewing inaccuracies and untruthful statements about a pistol caliber, as if it is a personal vendetta you have against it. Next you'll be telling us the .45 revolver is useless and the .41 Magnum ..." is only used in close range hunting."!!!?





So your saying Colt and SW stopped making 10mm because shooters hands were to small.

Get real, the true reason they stopped selling them is because very low demand and sales.
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I'm not arguing the quality of the custom 10mm's you mention most are fine , accurate guns for a niche group of shooters.

True the 10mm in its most powerfull load is stronger than a 357 mag, but for hunting purposes a 357 mag revolver or larger is a better choice, in reality 44 mag should be the minimum caliber of choice. 10mm is a very marginal load if used for anything from hogs, deer, black bear, Grizz etc.

The other major issue is the recoil and controllability. Since you are a die hard 10mm fan you will argue till your blue in the face. I owned 3 of them for 10 yrs and gave up on the idea of shooting the highest power round or magnum you could out of a particular style pistol platform.

Once you are exposed to more accurate custom match pistol , that shoot lower recoling more accurate loads, like a S&W 38spl 15 , S&W 52 38spl, S&W 41 22lr, Colt gold cup 38 spl, Gold Cup 45 target wad cutters, 1911 in 9mm.
After shooting these lower recoiling more accurate guns, you have to ask yourself, why waste your time and money shooting the hi power loads at simple paper targets.

Most CCW experts will also tell you that 10mm is really overkill for a defense load.

Then you get into the cost of reloading 10mm or any other major hand gun center fire round right now, 10 years ago I used to reload about 5000 rounds a year of various calibers and in the last 5 yrs. I haven't loaded one round.

With the current reloading supply prices, you can't reload for what you can buy factory ammo for.

Now factor in the current cost of the cheapest 10mm ammo 50 qty, against of other major calibers.

10mm $24.95
45 acp $20.95
40 sw $14.95
9mm $10.95

From simple cost you can see that either 40sw or 9mm is the most cost effective round to fire out of either the 1911 platform or the glock
 
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Hold My Own said:
Hey guys.

To keep it short and sweet, talk me into or out of a Colt Delta Elite or the Glock 20.

I'm typing this from my phone since the laptop is down, and the search function isn't working for me so if there's a wealth of information on the subject apologize.

What are some good alternatives to the two? Does the grip size of the Delta differ much from the normal .45 1911's if at all? If went for the conversion in the G20, how is the 9x25 Dillon out of the G20? Ballistics on low power, and full house loads?


I'm asking a lot but this lack of a laptop right now has me limited, so thanks a lot.
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I went thru this a while back and ended up getting the G20SF. The Colt Delta is a better looking pistol, and may have slightly better ergonomics for some, but I find the G20sf (and the std G20 for that matter) to be fine. The Delta is just too expensive. For the price of the Colt, I was able to get the Glock plus several extra magazines, a holster and reloading dies for my Dillon.

If I were going to do it over, I would do one thing differently, I would get a Glock 21SF. The reasoning behind this is that a G21 is a 160$ Storm Lake Conversion barrel and a couple of new G20 magazines away from being able to run 10mm, whereas if you want to run .45acp thru a G20 you need the G21 slide (with the larger extractor to fit over the larger case rim of the .45ACP), and a new barrel (at which point you could have bought a second gun).

As for alternatives to the Colt and Glock...its rather slim pickings. You can look into various 1911s from boutique gun makers (well, Kimber isnt really a 'boutique' maker, but you get the idea) and other than that your only real option is a Tanfoglio (EAA) Witness. Some folks have good things to say about the Tanfoglio guns, others do not. I have no experience with them personally so I cannot comment.

I DO like my Glock G20SF. :cool:

I cant comment on the 9x25 Dillon, but recoil with my bulk handloads is not a problem. In the video link I was using a mix of 180gr and 165gr plated bullets with the 180's at about 1050-1100ft/s and the 165's at about 1150-1175ft/s. I imagine the 9x25 must be less kick than a 10mm Auto (which is after all, a 10x25mm)

I have run 180 FMJ's with a max charge of BlueDot for an advertized muzzle velocity of 1295ft/s and found them to be controllable enough that I wouldnt think twice about using them in a 3-gun or plate-shoot....Of course the range master might have something to say about a 180gr bullet striking their steel at close to 1300ft/s :evil:

I find the G20 to be very similar to my buddie's S&W M&P40 in terms of kick. The M&P is a tad lighter and is snappier than you might expect. My bulk 10mm loads are basically a max .40s&w load and they shoot softer out of the G20 than a .40S&W does out of the Smith M&P...I know, apples to oranges, different guns, but those are my reference points.

As for ballistics, well, garden variety 10mm from Federal is no more than a 40S&W, but the good stuff from Double Tap is some real rip-snorting, lay-down-the-law butt-kicking ammo.

For defensive load, Nothing says Lovin' like a 135gr hollow point screaming down the bore at close to 1600ft/s!:evil: That is how you spell "Explosive Hydrostatic Shock".

Get the Glock, spend the extra money on ammo and accessories. The Glock just has too much going for it to get the Colt unless you have your heart set on it.

BTW, the Glock is accurate too, my best groups run about 2in@25yds.
 
284 winchester is nothing more than a slightly shorter,fatter abated 280 remington round, and the 284 has case support issues that the 280 doesn't have.
 
I have a 1006, G20, G29, and custom Caspian framed 1911 in 10mm by SDM Fabricating. My brother just bought a pair of G20's, and his buddy bought a G20 also. We BELIEVE in the 10mm, and my G29 is my "primary" every day gun. You cannot go wrong with the G20, and the Colt Delta is great, but might need some fine tuning (1911's don't always run right out of the gate; Glocks usually do.).
 
The claim that the FBI gave up on the 10mm because of recoil is pure Internet Bravo Sierra.
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Ah, no.

As you said, the FBI gave up on the full 10mm before it was ever issued, downloading it by 12/88 because they thought the velocity and pressure were "too high." If you have documentation re: why exactly did they consider the velocity and pressure "too high" (Worried about breaking the 10XX-series Smiths? Worried about recoil? Over-penetration?) please share. Especially if you have documentation that recoil was, as you say, not the reason.

Sure: once they had given up on then-current 10mm and instead decided on a milder load--for reasons besides recoil, you say--the full-length 10mm case (and the longer pistol grip) was no longer needed. It's not surprising that S&W and Federal soon shortened the case, and went with smaller pistols

Most of us who like the 10mm like the "full" 10mm, not the 10mm light "FBI" load (if we liked that, we'd go .40). So, when I say the FBI gave up on the 10mm (because of velocity and pressure) I mean they gave it up when they went with the 10mm FBI under-loading. And I made that clear in my post.
 
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You were saying that NOBODY other than Glock makes a 10mm handgun anymore. None of the 10mm handgun makes that I cited are custom firearms, BTW.

Your opinions about 10mm vs. .357 Mag for hunting are familiar, and we can agree to disagree. With the differing loads that can be formulated, when combined with different spring rates from great Corps like Wolff Springs, I would take my 1076 @ 9+1 in chamber over a revolver. Carrying 2 extra mags for a total of 28 rounds is much simpler than 4 additional speed loaders for revolvers. Then, you might step into the Glock world of 13+1, adding a 6" Storm Lake drop-in barrel.....and digress.

I am not a 10mm diehard fan, as you put it; I am a diehard NRA member who loves the diversity of caliber productions for pistols. It is great fun. BTW-I believe the OP is asking about WHICH 10mm pistol, not whether you like it or not.


XR1200:
I'm not arguing the quality of the custom 10mm's you mention most are fine , accurate guns for a niche group of shooters.

True the 10mm in its most powerfull load is stronger than a 357 mag, but for hunting purposes a 357 mag revolver or larger is a better choice, in reality 44 mag should be the minimum caliber of choice. 10mm is a very marginal load if used for anything from hogs, deer, black bear, Grizz etc.

The other major issue is the recoil and controllability. Since you are a die hard 10mm fan you will argue till your blue in the face. I owned 3 of them for 10 yrs and gave up on the idea of shooting the highest power round or magnum you could out of a particular style pistol platform.
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IMG_0884.jpg

Right after shooting it for the first time right out of the box. Has a rail for light or like pictured here with a green laser.


First mag out of it:

IMG_0861.gif
 
Quote"
Your opinions about 10mm vs. .357 Mag for hunting are familiar, and we can agree to disagree. With the differing loads that can be formulated, when combined with different spring rates from great Corps like Wolff Springs, I would take my 1076 @ 9+1 in chamber over a revolver. Carrying 2 extra mags for a total of 28 rounds is much simpler than 4 additional speed loaders for revolvers. Then, you might step into the Glock world of 13+1, adding a 6" Storm Lake drop-in barrel.....and digress. "



From a medium to big game handgun hunting or hunting defense cartridge 10mm just doesn't cut it. It doesn't matter how many rounds you have. It really comes down to the stopping power for your first or second shot, in most hunting situations of dangerous game your not going to get more than 1-2 shots off at close range or even long rang , before the animal is upon you , or out your sight picture at long range.
 
A grizzly/brown bear was recently killed in self defense by a fella in Alaska with .45 auto.
I think a 10mm would have an equal or better chance at the same. To say it's not enough for wilderness defense appears to be an opinion that does not enjoy 100% accuracy.
 
Any caliber is better than nothing in an emergency, but you wouldn't plan an african safari and take a 223 for dangerous game etc. You would take a 338 win - 458win minimum.
 
xr1200... back on topic. Which one would you talk them out of since that is what this was about. I think they want a 10mm so drop the caliber wars.

I gave my opinion on what is a really good 10 with options. Out of the other two he initially wanted opinions on the Glock has a rail which opens up options, more capacity and a slew of barrels and add-ons. (1/2 price of the Delta too!).
 
If I had to choose between a 1911 and glock 10mm , then I would take the glock.
If I had to choose a caliber between 9mm, 40sw, 45acp , 10mm . I would choose the 9mm or self defense.

To me 10mm is just to hard to control for self defense purposes and is really overkill. If you really needed magnum stopping power for self defense, then you would be seeing everyone carrying desert eagles and SW 29's
 
I agree if his only options are these two the Glock... although the Delta is pretty!

See that's just the point you are missing about the 10 or any other being overpowered. It's in the ammo! You can put a 10mm round down to .40 real easy.

Here is my 10mm ammo sheet:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...Eh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&hl=en_US#gid=0

Get some of that Federal Personal Defense at the bottom.. 987/382 and it will be tame as a Kitten to shoot. Then you can go all the way up to the SwampFox 1683/849 which is ripping. All kinds of bullet weights and types up and down. Versatile! Do they even make a +150 gr 9mm offering?
 
10mm brass and components are just to expensive, at least with 40, 45, 9mm would don't have to worry about picking up your cases, and reloading the 10mm is expensive.

10mm you have to be carefull about downloading it.

Its better to just shoot the 40sw to begin with
 
I pick up everyone's brass that don't want it regardless of caliber :) Honestly powder is powder, etc... Buy a couple of boxes of new cheap ammo and generate brass. Reloading isn't anymore than the .40-.45 then.

I can swap the slide on my Witness to any of the calibers or just drop a .40 barrel in. Even though I have a 9mm and sold my .45 I have no desire for the others.
 
Currently with the prices of current factory ball ammo its cheaper to buy new factory ammo then it is to reload. almost any center fire handgun round.

Add up the prices of 100 qty brass $14-$40 , primers $3 100 qty, lb powder $20, bullets 40 cal 180grn $26 100 qty.

Now add up the cost for reloading a box of 50 qty taking into account you can buy factory ball 10mm ammo for around $26

brass average of $10 + $1.50 primers + 1/4 lb powder $5 + $13 bullets = $29.50 for 50 qty of handloads.

Even subtracting the price of brass your still at $19.50 a box, handloading your own old brass.

New ammo $26 50 rounds
New handloads $29.50 50 rounds
Using old brass $19.50 50 rounds

Note 50 rounds of 40sw. is only about $15 factory ball

So please explain to me your logic in currently reloading. When it makes more common sense to just buy factory loaded ammo. Prices I just looked up at natchez supply and you know they are the cheapest on reloading supplies for average pricing.
 
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For me personally I just save brass right now. I don't have the equipment and or time to do it... currently. I get my bigger caliber ammo from Underwood and you can send him your once fired to do so. .32 a round reloaded 180gr FMJ 1300FPS/700LBS of energy using Starline brass mainly. That's $16.00 a box ;) for a meat tearing round. It's not like the watered down shelf crap at Wally World or your local gun shop and I will pay the extra dollar over the .40 short and weak for the smile it delivers to my face :).

Also on the reloading you are doing low quantities. Most everyone I know buys in real bulk like 1000 bullets. From Montana gold you can get 1000 180gr for $140. That's half you estimate. Half everything and you will be close.
 
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