HarryB
Member
yes it is
Talk Me Out Of A Beretta 92FS
- Thread starter Tecolote
- Start date
- Status
yes it is
macavada
Member
Camel power? Donkey power? I don't know. Ox power? Or is it llama power?
I'm still waiting for el tecolote to respond to this thread (I love that handle). He started this thread. Any epiphanies after all the responses?
I'm still waiting for el tecolote to respond to this thread (I love that handle). He started this thread. Any epiphanies after all the responses?
Vern Humphrey
Member
I've only used a handgun for real twice -- both times during my first tour in Viet Nam. And that was my Colt 357.
If the data is believeable, with comparable ammo, the .45 is at least as effective as the .357. And the M1911 has some other advantages, including a flatter, more easily concealed package, high reliability, and a quicker reload.
If the data is believeable, with comparable ammo, the .45 is at least as effective as the .357. And the M1911 has some other advantages, including a flatter, more easily concealed package, high reliability, and a quicker reload.
I don't want to highjack this thread, but if the "data is to be believed" the 9mm's premium defense loadings are so within spitting distance of the best in .40S&W and .45ACP loads that the differences are next to meaningless.
In fact, their gelatin performance on Ammolab is nearly identical. I say these things as a .45ACP fan first and foremost. I have simply never seriously deluded myself with the "wimpy 9mm" false conciousness. The 9mm can be made to be very deadly, particularly in the modern 147 grain offerings by the major factories, loads that approach what is being tried with the .357SIG and very nearly reach the performance of the vaunted 230 gr. .45ACP in terms of penetration with excellent expansion. And it does it in pistols that reach typically from 15+1 through 20+1 in capacity depending on one's taste in magazines.
As for the revolver, it does have its virtues too and if you'd like to discuss them, we can do so in the appropriate subforum.
In fact, their gelatin performance on Ammolab is nearly identical. I say these things as a .45ACP fan first and foremost. I have simply never seriously deluded myself with the "wimpy 9mm" false conciousness. The 9mm can be made to be very deadly, particularly in the modern 147 grain offerings by the major factories, loads that approach what is being tried with the .357SIG and very nearly reach the performance of the vaunted 230 gr. .45ACP in terms of penetration with excellent expansion. And it does it in pistols that reach typically from 15+1 through 20+1 in capacity depending on one's taste in magazines.
As for the revolver, it does have its virtues too and if you'd like to discuss them, we can do so in the appropriate subforum.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The heavier 9mm loads are controversial -- I don't want to get into the "jello junkie" versus "Morgue goul" argument, but there are points on both sides.
The question is, is the 9mm as effective as the .357 in actual shootings? The .45 ACP, with proper ammo, can make that claim.
The question is, is the 9mm as effective as the .357 in actual shootings? The .45 ACP, with proper ammo, can make that claim.
sendtoscott
Member
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 76
The CZ-75 SA trigger is poor
I took a '92 and a '75 to the range awhile back and noticed the same thing. I hated the Beretta safety, but liked the gun itself better than my 75. Wide, deeply curved triggers (like the 75 and HP-DA) just don't seem to agree w/ me for some reason.
I took a '92 and a '75 to the range awhile back and noticed the same thing. I hated the Beretta safety, but liked the gun itself better than my 75. Wide, deeply curved triggers (like the 75 and HP-DA) just don't seem to agree w/ me for some reason.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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The San Diego PD seems to think the 147 gr. 9mm JHP is very satisfactory.
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The US Army thought the SAA was very satisfactory, too -- but at the Little Bighorn battlefield, very few .45 Colt cases were found. What appeared to be a minor nuisance in Washington (slow to reload) was fatal in Montana.
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The San Diego PD seems to think the 147 gr. 9mm JHP is very satisfactory.
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The US Army thought the SAA was very satisfactory, too -- but at the Little Bighorn battlefield, very few .45 Colt cases were found. What appeared to be a minor nuisance in Washington (slow to reload) was fatal in Montana.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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And just what does your analogy mean in context? There aren't SDPD officers being killed because of any inadequacies in their sidearm choice.
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SDPD is not the end-all, be-all when it comes to selection of weapons. Most police department selections are governed as much by politics and economics as by objective performance of round and weapon.
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And just what does your analogy mean in context? There aren't SDPD officers being killed because of any inadequacies in their sidearm choice.
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SDPD is not the end-all, be-all when it comes to selection of weapons. Most police department selections are governed as much by politics and economics as by objective performance of round and weapon.
I only use SDPD as an example. That agency has been using the 9mm since the mid-80s and hasn't seen fit to switch. As they use Glocks, its hardly a political choice or due to a lack of money that they don't change, given that they could go with the G21 or G22 for the asking.
cuate
Member
The 9mm vs. .40 & .45 hassle
I have a 9mm and I love it! Also have a .40 which I love more, and a .45 which
if my favorite. Carry your 9s if that what suits you but...........
If I'm carrying at night, the .40 Glock with tritium sights (and) an internal laser is what is going to be my podnuh. Daytime the 1911 seems suitable. Old timer Sgt. Alvin York killed six Germans one right after another with an issue .45 and they all flopped with one shot apiece.
I have a 9mm and I love it! Also have a .40 which I love more, and a .45 which
if my favorite. Carry your 9s if that what suits you but...........
If I'm carrying at night, the .40 Glock with tritium sights (and) an internal laser is what is going to be my podnuh. Daytime the 1911 seems suitable. Old timer Sgt. Alvin York killed six Germans one right after another with an issue .45 and they all flopped with one shot apiece.
cxm
Member
Reasons
Talk you out of a Beretta:
1. Too big
2. Too fragile
3. Too Italian
4. Too unreliable
5. Too ugly
6. Under powered
If ya gotta have a 9mm consider the Browning HP or if you want DA there are lots of excellent S&W 9mm autos around at great prices.
FWIW
Chuck
Talk you out of a Beretta:
1. Too big
2. Too fragile
3. Too Italian
4. Too unreliable
5. Too ugly
6. Under powered
If ya gotta have a 9mm consider the Browning HP or if you want DA there are lots of excellent S&W 9mm autos around at great prices.
FWIW
Chuck
peashooter
Member
1 Too Big----- Bigger than what?
2 Too Fragile------ Good One. I guess I've been very lucky.
3 Too Itialian -- Oh it's furrin.
4 Too Unreliable -- Hmm, mine works fine EVERY TIME, unlike a lot of Glocks at the matches I shoot.
5 Too Ugly -- Looks pretty hot to me!
6 Underpowered -- I guess ya got me there. I'll just have to place my shots better.
2 Too Fragile------ Good One. I guess I've been very lucky.
3 Too Itialian -- Oh it's furrin.
4 Too Unreliable -- Hmm, mine works fine EVERY TIME, unlike a lot of Glocks at the matches I shoot.
5 Too Ugly -- Looks pretty hot to me!
6 Underpowered -- I guess ya got me there. I'll just have to place my shots better.
carebear
Member
Bigger overall size, grip radius and longer trigger reach than most equivalently mag. capacity 9 mm's on the market.
From those designed 70 years ago to today, the 92 is the heifer of the bunch.
From those designed 70 years ago to today, the 92 is the heifer of the bunch.
1. Too big
2. Too fragile
3. Too Italian
4. Too unreliable
5. Too ugly
6. Under powered
_________________________________________________________________
I just couldn't let a statment like this go unchecked.
Lets hit this point by point.
1. Too big - It is true that the gun is large but it is not overly heavy because the alloy frame. Also, I have small hands and I can shoot the Beretta just fine, I can't say the same for some other full sized 9mms (CZ-75, Glock 17, SIG 226). All of those feel less comfortable than the Beretta in my hands.
2. Too fragile - Not true. The Beretta didn't become the choice of the U.S. military because it was "fragile".
3. Too Italian - How can anything be "too Italian"? Italy makes some of the worlds finest guns period. Benelli, Beretta, and other Italian companies make some of the worlds best shotguns.
4. Too unreliable - This is a flat out lie. The one thing the Beretta is not is "unreliable". In fact, it is probably one of the most reliable semi-auto handguns in the history of the freaking world! Berettas feed and eject more often than just about any other handgun. I have seen more Glocks jam than Berettas. In fact, I have only ever seen one jam in a Beretta and it was ammo related. I have seen Glocks and SIGs jam for no reason. I consider the Beretta more reliable than SIG or Glock based on my own two eyes and what I have personally seen.
5. Too ugly - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but many people think that the Beretta has nice lines and is one of the best looking handguns out there. I know it is not as good looking as a Glock but it gets by. LOL!
6. Under powered - 15+1 of 9mm is not enough for you? If you calculate the total energy from 16 +P 9mms, it would be far more than the engergy of a fully loaded 1911.
2. Too fragile
3. Too Italian
4. Too unreliable
5. Too ugly
6. Under powered
_________________________________________________________________
I just couldn't let a statment like this go unchecked.
Lets hit this point by point.
1. Too big - It is true that the gun is large but it is not overly heavy because the alloy frame. Also, I have small hands and I can shoot the Beretta just fine, I can't say the same for some other full sized 9mms (CZ-75, Glock 17, SIG 226). All of those feel less comfortable than the Beretta in my hands.
2. Too fragile - Not true. The Beretta didn't become the choice of the U.S. military because it was "fragile".
3. Too Italian - How can anything be "too Italian"? Italy makes some of the worlds finest guns period. Benelli, Beretta, and other Italian companies make some of the worlds best shotguns.
4. Too unreliable - This is a flat out lie. The one thing the Beretta is not is "unreliable". In fact, it is probably one of the most reliable semi-auto handguns in the history of the freaking world! Berettas feed and eject more often than just about any other handgun. I have seen more Glocks jam than Berettas. In fact, I have only ever seen one jam in a Beretta and it was ammo related. I have seen Glocks and SIGs jam for no reason. I consider the Beretta more reliable than SIG or Glock based on my own two eyes and what I have personally seen.
5. Too ugly - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but many people think that the Beretta has nice lines and is one of the best looking handguns out there. I know it is not as good looking as a Glock but it gets by. LOL!
6. Under powered - 15+1 of 9mm is not enough for you? If you calculate the total energy from 16 +P 9mms, it would be far more than the engergy of a fully loaded 1911.
Old Dog
Member
The thread that won't die ...
Another thread that won't die a natural death ...
Hey, I was born a 1911 guy ... used 1911s extensively my first twelve years in the military (love my 1911s a bunch), have been issued M9s the last thirteen ... I can live with the Beretta. Use the safety as a decocker only, good loads abound even in -- gasp! -- 9mm ... The Beretta is a good looking pistol, and in my humble view (I've carried 'em in bad places and even own a couple), as reliable as any pistol manufactured, period, if maintained properly.
Another thread that won't die a natural death ...
Hey, I was born a 1911 guy ... used 1911s extensively my first twelve years in the military (love my 1911s a bunch), have been issued M9s the last thirteen ... I can live with the Beretta. Use the safety as a decocker only, good loads abound even in -- gasp! -- 9mm ... The Beretta is a good looking pistol, and in my humble view (I've carried 'em in bad places and even own a couple), as reliable as any pistol manufactured, period, if maintained properly.
ksnecktieman
Member
I had two while I was married to my second wife. We had many pleasant five hundred round saturday afternoons, and never brought one home broken. Those two have passed into history, and I now have two more. I can not claim to be a high volume shooter here. But I am a shooter, not a collector, and I expect these to go to my grandkids when I can no longer shoot.
By all means, buy one, and try to wear it out. You may need a second job to purchase enough ammunition.
I found them to be very user friendly to newbies. The size and the alloy frame make them feel light, and they absorb recoil well.
By all means, buy one, and try to wear it out. You may need a second job to purchase enough ammunition.
I found them to be very user friendly to newbies. The size and the alloy frame make them feel light, and they absorb recoil well.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
--------------------------
I only use SDPD as an example. That agency has been using the 9mm since the mid-80s and hasn't seen fit to switch. As they use Glocks, its hardly a political choice or due to a lack of money that they don't change, given that they could go with the G21 or G22 for the asking.
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Many other departments have arrived at different conclusions -- both as regards gun and cartridge. Some have gone from light bullet 9mm loads to heavy bullet, then on to another caliber.
Special Operations Forces (who tend to get really involved) tend to favor other guns and other cartridges.
--------------------------
I only use SDPD as an example. That agency has been using the 9mm since the mid-80s and hasn't seen fit to switch. As they use Glocks, its hardly a political choice or due to a lack of money that they don't change, given that they could go with the G21 or G22 for the asking.
---------------------------
Many other departments have arrived at different conclusions -- both as regards gun and cartridge. Some have gone from light bullet 9mm loads to heavy bullet, then on to another caliber.
Special Operations Forces (who tend to get really involved) tend to favor other guns and other cartridges.
I sold mine a number of years ago for only one reason, the way it didn't fit my hand. Had it fit, I might still have it. Craving a Beretta, I decided to pick up a mint Couger 8000 this week that only set me back $399. All I can say is I am once again experiencing that Beretta fit and finish I had with the 92 - smooth and sweet. And, 200 rounds through it this weekend with no glitches. And, it's accurate. Perhaps there's a Vertec in my future.
George Hill
Member
Too Italian?
Too Italian...
Too Italian...
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