Tank Question

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Nightcrawler

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Got a question for all you tankers out there. The M1 and M60 tanks both have crews of four; a driver, commander, gunner, and loader, yes?

What's the layout inside of these like? I've only seen an Abrams up close once (at Grayling two years ago...damn those things are quiet...you wouldn't think a 77 ton tank could sneak up on you, but you can't hear them over the roar of an old diesel engine in a one-one-three...), and have never been in one.

Are the gunner and loader in the same compartment? Could the gunner, in a pinch, load the shells himself, move over to his seat, and fire the gun? I sthe commander in the compartment as the gunner or loader, or is he separate in his own little subcompartment?

Thanks!
 
The gunner, loader and TC are all in the same compartment, i.e., they're all in the turret. The gunner could get out of his seat and load the gun then get back and fire it, but IIRC the TC has an override and can traverse the turret and fire the gun from his position, which is in a seat up and behind the gunner. The driver is in a separate compartment in the hull.
 
There are a couple of really nice picture books about tanks, I have both, that show the interiors of all the major tanks, German, Russian, and U.S.

I got both of mine from Barnes & Noble.
 
I know on the M1 the TC is on the right, the gunner is to his immediate left, and the loader is slightly below and left of the gunner. If I'm not mistaken, the M1A2 has an automated loading system and only carries a crew of 3.
 
A buddy of mine is a tank commander in the Mich NG. He trains up there by you in Grayling. He says that a tank can be fought with as little as two active crewmembers. One to drive and one to spot, load and shoot. Of course, it takes longer to do everything and if you ever had to do this in combat, you'd be in deep trouble, but it can be done.

He says he's had a lot of experience running with 3 man crews because of a perpetual manpower shortage in his unit. He says that if the TC and gunner are experienced, and work together well, they can perform almost as effectively as a full crew. The big problem is that since they are both overworked they tend to get distracted which makes it harder to spot targets, maintain situational awareness and communicate with the rest of the platoon. He says he'd never want to fight a Platoon Leader's tank shorthanded.
 
The Soviet Union introduced an autoloading system in the T-72 main battle tank. It worked well when it worked, but it had an unfortunate tendency to try to load the gunner sometimes... it was rumored that this was how the Red Army Choir recruited its soprano section! :D
 
In both the M1 and M60 the TC is at the right rear, with an override to shoot if he needs to. The gunner is in front of him, right side of the gun. Loader is left of the TC. Driver is obviously up front.

You could operate loaderless but it'd take a lot longer. The M1'd make it more cramped for the gunner to get to the loader side. It's got room, but not THAT much. :)
 
In both the M1 and M60 the TC is at the right rear, with an override to shoot if he needs to. The gunner is in front of him, right side of the gun. Loader is left of the TC. Driver is obviously up front.

You could operate loaderless but it'd take a lot longer. The M1'd make it more cramped for the gunner to get to the loader side. It's got room, but not THAT much.

I believe the prefered technique is to keep the loader in position and for the TC to fire the main gun either from the commander's station or by dropping into the gunner's station as needed and then popping back up to the TC position. If the loader is the missing/injured crewmember, the gunner will move to the loader's spot.

Btw, from what my friend said, aside from the TC, the loader is the crewmember most likely to become wounded or killed. Since the M-1 loader has his own hatch and machine gun, he rides exposed almost as much as the tank commander and thus is more vulnerable then the other members of the crew. The loader is also the crewmember that is most likely to be dismounted as a ground guide or scout if the situation requires it and is thus more suspectable to snipers or small arms fire.

(When my buddy was a loader he said he HATED having to dismount when running certain pre-programmed training exercises because it seems like EVERY time the command "Dismount the loader" was given, he'd climb out of the tank only to hear, "The loader has been killed. Operate as a three man crew." He said what he learned is that he NEVER wanted to be outside the tank in combat. )
 
OK guys, time to despell the BS in this thread. I was a 19K20 (M1 crew member) for 8 years. I was loader, I let my E-4 gun cause he was better at it than I was. As you look at the front of an M1, the driver sits front center in the hull, everyone else is in the turret, the TC sits top left-rear, the gunner sits just in front of and below the TC (think of it as if the TC could kick the gunner in the head if he needed to, some knuckleheads needed it too :) The loader sits on the same plain but too the right of the gunner and the gun is in between the two. AT NO TIME SINCE PRODUCTION HAS THERE BEEN AN AUTO-LOADER. In the event the TC gets tagged (the most likley) the gunner moves up into the TC chair and uses the override while the loader stays put. If the loader gets tagged (2nd most likley since he also has to perform anti-air watch with his M240) the gunner moves over to load and the TC takes over the gun with his override. The gunner will never get hit unless the whole tank is destroyed unless he was out of the tank during the attack same goes for the driver unless he had his hatch open (which he shouldn't is they expected contact)

The reason why the gunner cannot effective load as well as gun is because there is a blast door that seals off the ammo compartment from the crew compartment, this door will stay closed unless a big button is held down by the knee of the person sitting in the loaders chair. The way the door opens limits access to the ammo unless you are in the loaders chair. to load and gun at the same time would take too long and be very cumbersome.

I hope this clears all the rumors up. If more questions, just ask :)
 
Quite a bit of info here; some of it good, some not so good.

The seating layout MrMurphy gives is correct; the picture provided by Mr. Mysterious is of the interior of an M1A2, showing the gunner, TC and some (but not all!) of the guards that are in place when firing the main gun. The picture is taken from essentially the loaders position, but a little more behind the gun than the loader would ever be during live fire. The proper procedure for 3-man crew is to move the gunner to the loader's position and have the TC do all the firing of the main gun from his position. I will not slide down to the gunners seat unless absolutely necessary - perhaps only if the GPS is knocked out and I have to use the optical sights (GAS). It's hard enough to maintain situational awareness without popping up and down all the time.

The loader is the most exposed member of the crew. The TC has the 50 cal and mount, along with the "doghouse" in front of him, and an armored hatch behind; he also has a "protected open" position for the hatch where it is over his head but raised about 4 inches for even better protection but worse visibility. The loader has... nothing, especially if he's up manning his 240. Well, I guess he's got the 240 itself, but that's a pretty small weapon to hide behind. But yes, loaders and TC's are very vulnerable; in effect, they have their heads and torsos sticking out of a 62 ton moving bullet magnet.
 
You like? You should see the coax ready ammo box. The tank carries 10,000 rounds of 7.62, most of which is in one loooooong belt in the coax box. Can you say "barrel burnout"?

I knew you could.:D

I]edited to add:[/I] I stand corrected. An M1A1 carries 10,800 rounds total, but only 2800 in the coax box.
 
Driving a tank can be fun - ask this guy!



Even if sometimes you have to get out and do some painting and other maintenance.




And think of the looks if you were driving this one down the road!





Note - not a Nazi, just like WWII German tanks.

In order, Panzer IV, Tiger II,(AKA King Tiger), Maus, the mysterious German superheavy in trials 1945.
 
The loader, being the least experienced of the crew, is also the guy who gets ordered at gunpoint to remove his mask first should they be in a chem/bio environment (TC's 9mm pointed at the back of his head should he either refuse to do it or end his suffering if the tank's contaminated (but I dont think that part's official policy)).

Not a very pleasant thought.

The crew's personal weapons are, I believe, two M4s and two M9s.

Kharn
(A good friend of mine is in a relationship with a 2nd Lt (graduated West Point a year or two ago, I believe he's got a platoon of 4 M1A2's under his command), he had some very interesting stories to tell when I met him back in September, probably has a bunch more to tell now as he just returned from Iraq three weeks ago)
 
I have a couple buddies that are tankers...both tell me that the drivers seat is about as relaxing a spot that you can get in the army. They say with the reclined position and the gentle movements it is easy to fall asleep.

I have turned down a couple opportunities to ride along with these guys up in MI...I might have take them up on it sometime. I always told them to come play infantry with me...they always just laugh and call me a crunchy.
 
http://afvinteriors.hobbyvista.com/m1a2/abrams1.html

m1a2new1.jpg

Picture 2:
This is another General Dynamics photograph, this time illustrating the forward turret interior. The image includes a good view of the 120mm M256 cannon breech, directly in the center of the promotional photo. First, let's identify the location of the new components located up here in the turret, and then we will examine each component in more detail. The vertical white cylindrical object hanging down from the left side of the forward turret roof, with a black grid pattern at the bottom end, is the base of the new Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer (CITV). His display viewer for the CITV, looking a bit like a small television screen, is over on the right side of the turret. Returning to the left side of the turret again, and below the base of the CITV, is the SINCGARS set (Single Channel Ground/Air Radio System). Here it is seen as a two-piece, stacked, black box arrangement with many switches and one large plug on each box.

To the right of the SINCGARS equipment is the black semi-automatic breech of the 120mm smooth bore Rheinmetall main gun. The 120mm gun fires the M865 TPCSDS-T and M831 TP-T training rounds, the M8300 HEAT-MP-T, and the M829 APFSDS-T which includes a depleted uranium penetrator. The shell casings for these rounds are self consuming when fired. Normally there would be a deflector shield behind the breech to direct the base stub that is left after firing down to the floor, but it has been removed for this photo. Further to the right, and a bit further forward in the turret, is the gunner's station. The Gunner's Primary Sight (GPS) is the smaller sight that has switch boxes both below it and to its right, and also uses a brow pad directly above. The gunner's turret/gun joystick control (black) is below and to the left of the GPS. Above and a bit closer to us we can see the two screens of the Commander's Integrated Display and gun sight, with the CITV display and associated controls on the left, and the Command and Control Display (CCD) on the right.

Notice that both the coax machine gun and the gunner's sighting telescope are mounted on the right side of the 120mm gun, right next to the gunner. Ammunition feed for the coax MG loops over the gun barrel from the tall vertical ammo bin on the left to the weapon that you can just barely see mounted on the right. Notice the lack of any recoil guard behind the 120mm gun. As I mentioned earlier, the small deflector behind the breech is missing-- we will see it in a later photograph.



m1a2-2.jpg


Picture 7:
This is a General Dynamics cut-away sectional drawing of the early M1A2. The tank is fairly typical in general layout of most modern, non-autoloading MBTs in action today; with the driver sitting out in front and a three man crew back in the turret. You can get a feel for the general thickness of the composite depleted uranium armor by the thickness of the plate in front of the semi-reclining driver. When inside the vehicle I was surprised by how small the interior of the turret was (even though it is comparatively roomy when you have been in other modern MBTs). When you are outside looking at the turret it looks huge. Of course, this is due to the thickness of the front and side turret armor as well as the ammo bin in the rear bustle.

Back inside the turret again, the gunner sits forward and to the right of the gun in the traditional American style. The commander is seated directly behind him, and the loader (not shown in this drawing) operates freely on the left side of the gun. All turret main ammunition is stored in a separate bin in the turret bustle with special blow-out panels mounted on the turret roof, and also in a small bin on the other side of the firewall low down in the hull, behind the commander's seat. To access the main bin in the turret bustle, the loader pushes a knee switch that electrically opens the internal blast doors. He should do this each time he retrieves a round for the cannon so that most of the time in action the doors are kept closed. To finish with this particular sketch, the drawing includes the unique Abrams powerplant at the rear, which is still a 1500 hp gas turbine engine that allows a 21.6 hp/ton power to weight ratio.



m1a2-3.jpg


Picture 8:
Another drawing from General Dynamics provides us with a 3D general view of the major components inside of the tank. Visible are the gunner and commander's seats, and the loader's seat, which is folded on the left side of the turret. The turret bustle blowout panels are visible on the rear turret roof, and up forward on the roof is the Gunner's Primary Sight box. At the rear of the tank is the gas turbine engine with its associated air intakes, filters, batteries, and exhausts. Although often debated, the turbine engine does allow some interesting advantages over a similarly powerful diesel. For instance, it will run on any hydrocarbon fuel including gasoline, aviation gas, diesel, or alcohol fuel, although the preferred fuel in the US Army is high quality diesel. The turbine engine is 2,000lbs (900kg) lighter than a comparable diesel (allowing more armor) and has 30% fewer parts (less maintenance). The turbine will start at -25 degrees F (-31 degrees C) and is much quieter than a diesel, actually quieter than the tank's track noise, and produces a very small smoke signature.

The flip side to the argument is that fuel consumption is very high in the turbine; this is a very thirsty engine. There have been a number of studies over the years involved with potentially replacing the turbine with a diesel, but these have generally proved that the turbine continues the best choice for the Abrams. Recently, an upgraded turbine has been tested with a transverse mounting in the engine compartment that provides additional space in the engine compartment. This configuration is potentially beneficial, as the newly acquired space can be filled with an under-armor auxiliary power unit (APU) and/or additional ammo storage. Up to this point, the Abram's APU was mounted either on the right-rear hull of the tank (early versions), or up in the turret bustle. Of course, the use of an APU allows tanks to perform electrical and hydraulic functions which require power without the main turbine engine running. These functions include not only providing electricity to operate radios, night vision equipment, computers, and fans, but also hydraulic power to rotate the turret as well as a pneumatic source to provide pressurized air in nuclear, biological and chemical warfare environments.

More inside http://afvinteriors.hobbyvista.com/m1a2/abrams2.html
 
Kharn, the loader may indeed be the one tasked to take his mask off, but the procedure is a little different than what you said. He's not a guinea pig; you don't begin unmasking procedures unless you're VERY certain there aren't any Chem agents in the area.

Anecdote alert!

The only time this happened to me (during training, I hasten to add, not a real chemical environment!), our Lt. asked if he could see my .45. When I gave it to him, he turned it on me and ordered me to unmask (My own weapon!!!). I said, "OK, sir", reached up as if to remove my mask but instead pulled my knife off my LBE and mimed sticking him with it. Since his chemical suit was then "compromised', he got to be the test subject. We all learned a lesson on how NOT to initiate unmasking procedures.
 
Wow! Thanks for the info!

Being engineers, we have tracks, trucks, etc. I do wish they'd give the engineers a new vehicle to replace the 113s; the M113 was fine when it was designed (in the FIFTIES), but it's armor is thin and it can't keep up with the Bradleys and the Abrams tanks on the battlefield.

I've only seen M1s up close a few times. They often haul past our delta site on the tank trail at camp. (We had an idea to hide in the bushes and ambsuh them with fruit and/or water balloons, but that probably would've been more trouble than it was worth, LOL.)

Tankers don't understand how vulnerable Engineers are when doing the breach of the minefield; it takes a few minutes to get the MICLIC rocket in place and launch it; and we're just sitting out there in the mean time.

So tankers, protect your engineer assets! Surround that track with armor and let 'em have it in all directions. We're told that the engineers are the first thing the enemy protecting the minefield will try to take out, in an attempt to stall the breach of the minefield and catch the armor out in the open.

I was impressed with how quiet the Abrams is, though. As I said, you wouldn't think a 77 ton tank could sneak up on you.

they always just laugh and call me a crunchy.

LOL...I love it. People always wonder what I mean when I refer to myself and the guys in my unit as "crunchies"...

Oh, I've heard that bit about the "least important guy" being the one to unmask first (apparently in lieu of using chemical detectors sometimes, even...seems to me if there's any doubt, you leave the masks on).

I always joke, since I'm the SAW gunner, "yeah, you just try to get my weapon away from me...." LOL

Thinking about it though? All I can say is that this job does NOT pay enough.
 
Yeah, even less now that I got the word that my unit is 99% sure going OCONUS. WITHOUT our tanks and Bradleys! You're talkin' about a bunch of irritated 19Kilo and 19Delta troops!

I do know what you mean about the breaching ops, though. A lot of the time we don't have engineers and have to use a plow tank to do the job. Even with 8 other tanks and 13 bradleys covering the breach site, we usually end up losing a vehicle or two, sometimes more, either to direct or indirect.

Enemy engineer assets are always high priority targets. Kill 'em on sight. DRT.
 
I didnt mention the loader being unmasked until after the all-clear has been called, thinking everyone would know that part. Yeah, thats the ticket. :uhoh: (I really just forgot to mention it)

Here's a link to my friend's BF's pics from Iraq: Iraq Pics I would have posted it earlier, but I didnt have it at work. Note the plated AK pimp gun they found, and then posed for pictures with; its even got da switch, too! :D

Kharn
 
Did any of you M1 tankers see in the TV news the Iraqi video of a M1 getting hit? Camera was apparently rolling right after the tank got hit. Looks like one tanker had his left arm injured and there the other had burns to right side of his face. Both looked to be third degree burns. Only showed two of them exiting the tank from the turret.

There was a small fire on top of the turret which the first guy out of the tank poured water on it. Look like some gear was on fire.

Anybody have any idea what happened?
 
Likely an RPG hit the turret while they weren't buttoned up (standing up in the hatches manning the MGs for local security probably). An RPG hit to the turret's gonna be shrugged right off but if they're not buttoned up you could kill or injure the TC and loader. This appears to have happened. There's always a couple rucks or bags of personal gear strapped on, this is probably what was on fire.
 
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