I’m interested in a 22 rifle to supplement practicing with my M16A4gery using peep sights. Either will likely end up with Tech Sights for practicing out to 100 yards or so. I’m mainly interested in as much accuracy out of the box as I can get. There will likely be some double duty as a new shooter training rifle. I’m leaning slightly toward a 10/22 but I’m still exploring.
Target/Training Rifle - Savage MkII or Ruger 10/22
- Thread starter DMW1116
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jmorris
Member
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A few years ago I did some side by side testing of a stock 10-22, Marlin 60 and a Remington 597, with a few different types of ammunition.
While the 10-22’s smallest group was larger than the other two, it was on average of all the ammunition tested, the most accurate.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/side-by-side-597-10-22-model-60.811602/
While the 10-22’s smallest group was larger than the other two, it was on average of all the ammunition tested, the most accurate.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/side-by-side-597-10-22-model-60.811602/
Since you stated that you want a trainer to supplement your AR, then I will suggest buying or building an AR in 22LR. The S&W M&P 15-22 is a good one if you don't plan on changing a bunch of parts out for standard AR parts. Bud's Guns is showing a rebate available for the M&P 15-22 which puts it at the same price as a Ruger 10/22. And the 15-22 will all ready be setup the way you want it.
A bolt action will generally be more accurate than any semi-auto. So if you want the most accuracy, go with a bolt action. The advantage of a semi-auto is that they are truly ambidextrous. This will come into effect when training new shooters that shoot left hand. A right hand bolt action is awkward for left handed shooters.
A bolt action will generally be more accurate than any semi-auto. So if you want the most accuracy, go with a bolt action. The advantage of a semi-auto is that they are truly ambidextrous. This will come into effect when training new shooters that shoot left hand. A right hand bolt action is awkward for left handed shooters.
earlthegoat2
Member
There is a concept in athletic training called training specificity. Basically, to get better at “something” you must do that “something”.
In this instance, you want to get better with your AR by being able to shoot something more economical. Ideally, you would be shooting your AR with full power ammo. (Training specificity). However, you need a more economical approach in 22LR.
Your best bet for training to be better with your AR in 22LR we s going to be a 22LR AR type rifle. Ideally if similar size, weight, trigger and configuration to eliminate any other training variables.
The next best will be the 10/22.
I am also lefty and found myself in a similar situation. I needed to get better at fast follow up shots with a bolt action. Well, there aren’t very many left handed bolt action 22s that feel and handle like a full size 300 Win Mag bolt action so I got a lefty Savage Mk II.
In your case there are readily available 22 rifles very similar to full size ARs.
In this instance, you want to get better with your AR by being able to shoot something more economical. Ideally, you would be shooting your AR with full power ammo. (Training specificity). However, you need a more economical approach in 22LR.
Your best bet for training to be better with your AR in 22LR we s going to be a 22LR AR type rifle. Ideally if similar size, weight, trigger and configuration to eliminate any other training variables.
The next best will be the 10/22.
I am also lefty and found myself in a similar situation. I needed to get better at fast follow up shots with a bolt action. Well, there aren’t very many left handed bolt action 22s that feel and handle like a full size 300 Win Mag bolt action so I got a lefty Savage Mk II.
In your case there are readily available 22 rifles very similar to full size ARs.
I have a couple of AR22's built to mimic my centerfire AR's to include the same triggers and scopes. I also have the same when it comes to my bolt action rifles. I have a Savage Model 12 FVL in 308 along with a Savage MkII BTVLSS, both left handed with the heavy varmint barrels. While the Savage rifles do not have the same scopes, they are the same magnification.
Having a rimfire setup exactly like your centerfire is the best. I do the same with handguns too.
Having a rimfire setup exactly like your centerfire is the best. I do the same with handguns too.
Tough call, IMO. I agree that if you want an understudy for an AR, a .22-based AR would be ideal. OTOH, it's my personal opinion and experience that a good bolt .22LR is ideal for the new shooter, since they (heck, most shooters) will inevitably shoot a semi-auto too quickly and adopt some bad habits in the process.
Depending on what kind of accuracy you're looking for, I wouldn't count on an out-of-the-box 10/22 to deliver on "as much accuracy out of the box as I can get". I've got a 10/22 I set up with a sling and rear aperture for an Appleseed event I took my nephew to. I tried it out ahead of time - it was nice to not break position to work the bolt, but fine accuracy was the trade-off.
doubleh
Member
I am not going to recommend a 10/22 except as a base to build a good rifle with. If you want to simulate an AR get an AR look alike in 22. S&W 15-22, Tippman, or the cheapest solution, a CCMG conversion kit which allows you to to use your lower. It won't be exceedingly accurate but better than any out of the box 10/22 I've ever shot. There is also the option of a dedicated 22 upper which comes in under the cost of a complete rifle. I chose the dedicated upper. Just a few seconds to switch and you have the choice of either caliber and each is sighted in correctly.
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irishlad
Contributing Member
Got a lefty Savage Tuesday. Had been out of stock for awhile. Quite a few on different sites now.
https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...olt-action-rifle-22-long-rifle-21in/p/1507140
I would go simply with CMMG conversion kit. I have it on my SW MP rifle and it works fine. Same rifle weight , trigger and sights. Cheapest thing too . Also as someone said , you can always store that kit in your bug out bag with few 100 rounds of 22 ammo. The only thing is that accurate follow up shots with 22 are much easier and faster placed due to almost no recoil. So it can be misleading in a way …
The intended use of the centerfire is targets out to 300 with the carry handle sights. I haven’t really considered speed. It’s a 20” barrel so not too well suited for close and fast targets.
I considered the CMMG conversion but the lack of accuracy often reported had me looking for a separate rifle.
I have only shot 2 different M&P 15-22s. The accuracy and reliability somewhat less than I had hoped in a dedicated AR 22.
I considered the CMMG conversion but the lack of accuracy often reported had me looking for a separate rifle.
I have only shot 2 different M&P 15-22s. The accuracy and reliability somewhat less than I had hoped in a dedicated AR 22.
This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
InTheSwamp
Member
If you buy the Savage, do yourself a favor and get these mags...the stock ones suck...
Rimfire - Savage MK II - Csspecs Magazines
Rimfire - Savage MK II - Csspecs Magazines
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
If practice for an AR is what you are after, a Rimfire upper for an AR is what you seek.
Like these two.
Complete uppers can be found at RighttoBear.com. They are rebranded CMMG dedicated uppers and parts, have zero accuracy issues, and I like them!
https://www.righttobear.com/complete-22lr-upper-groups/
Cheaper than buying a new rifle, and still practicing with the actual trigger one would use in competition.
And a thousand times better than a S&W15/22, which should be much better than everyone’s I’ve shot was…
The only problem is they come and go in stock often. I had a notification on mine. Got an email, bought one, went back to look at more and they were gone. Got another email a week later, so they get them pretty regularly.
I see they are not as inexpensive as they were once…But they are well worth it.
As well, because it’s an AR, build it.
I had to say. You know you’re gonna hear it.
http://beyerbarrels.com/barrels/ar15_barrels
Beyers Barrels has match chambered, collared barrels that are tension sleeved, like a Ruger. They can be had with a faster twist and many lengths. My pistol has a Beyer barrel in it and it’s every bit as accurate as the mirror smooth CMMG nitrided rifle barrel.
A collared barrel and non-conversion rimfire bolt kit, a few Blackdog magazines and all the normal AR parts assembled the same, will have you practicing the right way.
You can’t practice motorcycle racing in a truck…
Like these two.
Complete uppers can be found at RighttoBear.com. They are rebranded CMMG dedicated uppers and parts, have zero accuracy issues, and I like them!
https://www.righttobear.com/complete-22lr-upper-groups/
Cheaper than buying a new rifle, and still practicing with the actual trigger one would use in competition.
And a thousand times better than a S&W15/22, which should be much better than everyone’s I’ve shot was…
The only problem is they come and go in stock often. I had a notification on mine. Got an email, bought one, went back to look at more and they were gone. Got another email a week later, so they get them pretty regularly.
I see they are not as inexpensive as they were once…But they are well worth it.
As well, because it’s an AR, build it.
I had to say. You know you’re gonna hear it.
http://beyerbarrels.com/barrels/ar15_barrels
Beyers Barrels has match chambered, collared barrels that are tension sleeved, like a Ruger. They can be had with a faster twist and many lengths. My pistol has a Beyer barrel in it and it’s every bit as accurate as the mirror smooth CMMG nitrided rifle barrel.
A collared barrel and non-conversion rimfire bolt kit, a few Blackdog magazines and all the normal AR parts assembled the same, will have you practicing the right way.
You can’t practice motorcycle racing in a truck…
doubleh
Member
Mine does about 1 1/2" averaged out off a good rest at 50 yard with CCI 40 gr mini-mags if that is acceptable to you. I have 15-22 for a lightweight grandkid to shoot because the rifle is very light. It has proved to be dependable and I stuck a LaRue trigger in it so the kid would have good trigger, dressed it up with a cheap red dot in red, a red muzzle devise, and painted the grip red with Krylon Fusion because I couldn't find one in that color. She loves it and shoots it pretty good for a skinny little girl.
I would consider the option on Demi-human post.
Way before the pandemic, there was a time when rifle ammo was hard to come-by, so I bought a conversion kit. It does OK, but when using a lower unit with aftermarket trigger, there will be some weird issues after firing less than 100 rounds of .22LR through the rifle, so I stopped using it.
Then, I bought a 15-22, and with a 3-9 scope, it is great to target practice with a self reset steel target up to 100 yards.
Since I started reloading, I am no longer interested in practice with .22LR. The conversion kit with several magazines are in the parts bin, and my 15-22 does not see much action.
Way before the pandemic, there was a time when rifle ammo was hard to come-by, so I bought a conversion kit. It does OK, but when using a lower unit with aftermarket trigger, there will be some weird issues after firing less than 100 rounds of .22LR through the rifle, so I stopped using it.
Then, I bought a 15-22, and with a 3-9 scope, it is great to target practice with a self reset steel target up to 100 yards.
Since I started reloading, I am no longer interested in practice with .22LR. The conversion kit with several magazines are in the parts bin, and my 15-22 does not see much action.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,958
^^Exactly this.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Tough one. If you're not training to run an AR fast, then the utility of a dedicated AR trainer would be limited. I really don't care of the controls are different when I'm just shooting at targets. I setup mine with a CMMG upper and configured it to be very close to my M&P15 that's the first rifle I grab when things go south. Doesn't sound like something you're after though.
I think a 10/22 is still a viable option. It can be configured virtually any way you can imagine. Including as a pseudo AR trainer. Same furniture and overall feel, the safety and mag release are just in a different location.
Which can also be configured as a precision rig.
I think a 10/22 is still a viable option. It can be configured virtually any way you can imagine. Including as a pseudo AR trainer. Same furniture and overall feel, the safety and mag release are just in a different location.
Which can also be configured as a precision rig.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Since we are on the subject....what is everyones experience with the CMMG-pattern Blackdog mags?
I bought one of their Colt-pattern high-caps and feed reliability is pretty bad, but the Colt 10-rounders run perfectly.
To the OP, another vote for an AR22. I built one for my Granddaughter and now Im looking to build another for myself. Too much fun!
I bought one of their Colt-pattern high-caps and feed reliability is pretty bad, but the Colt 10-rounders run perfectly.
To the OP, another vote for an AR22. I built one for my Granddaughter and now Im looking to build another for myself. Too much fun!
Looking over the responses, I think I need to refine what I want to do with the 22. I also think I really just want an excuse to buy a new 22 rifle. This is mostly for target practice using iron sights/aperture sights similar to what is on my A4 as well as my Marlin 336. I have the A4 set up for target shooting out to 300 with the quite sophisticated peep sight system on the carry handle. That sophistication aside, I was looking for a way to practice on a 22 with similar peep sights, thus the likely installation of Tech Sights.
I think the accuracy I want is more likely available from a bolt action than a semiautomatic like the 10/22. However, I feel I'm behind in that I don't have a 10/22 yet. Kind of like a knife guy not having a Buck 110 Folding Hunter. If drills/speed/efficiency training were my goal, clearly a dedicated AR-22, or at least an upper, would be the way to go. I'm just trying to hit with a similar sight system for cheaper.
I think the accuracy I want is more likely available from a bolt action than a semiautomatic like the 10/22. However, I feel I'm behind in that I don't have a 10/22 yet. Kind of like a knife guy not having a Buck 110 Folding Hunter. If drills/speed/efficiency training were my goal, clearly a dedicated AR-22, or at least an upper, would be the way to go. I'm just trying to hit with a similar sight system for cheaper.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
(Flame suit on)
Im gunna be honest- I hate the 10/22 as it sits out of the box. The mag release and bolt hold-open are one of the worst designs ever, the flush 10-round magazine is a pain to remove and insert, reliability and accuracy wasnt impressive in any of the 3 I had, and the cheap plastic fire control unit they use now triggers my OCD.
Yes, yes, I know all these things can be upgraded with better aftermarket parts, but Im done with the 10/22.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
(Flame suit on)
Im gunna be honest- I hate the 10/22 as it sits out of the box. The mag release and bolt hold-open are one of the worst designs ever, the flush 10-round magazine is a pain to remove and insert, reliability and accuracy wasnt impressive in any of the 3 I had, and the cheap plastic fire control unit they use now triggers my OCD.
Yes, yes, I know all these things can be upgraded with better aftermarket parts, but Im done with the 10/22.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Let me slip my Nomex CVC coveralls on and join you. I have never been impressed with the 10/22 as it comes from the factory and I don't feel the need to spend money on a rifle then turn right around and spend more money to make it more accurate and/or function better.
@DMW1116 if you want to buy anew 22 rifle, by all means buy what you want and enjoy. That being said, some type of AR in 22lr will suit you best. And if you build your own AR22, then you can set it up with the exact same trigger, stock, handguards, and sights as your centerfire AR. You won't be able to do that with a 10/22 or even with a M&P 15-22.
Now if you want a bolt action that will be accurate out of the box for a decent price then go with the Savage MkII.
It wasn't really clear in the original post, but I really had only 2 goals. One, practice hitting my target with military style adjustable aperture sights with as much accuracy as I could get for my budget. Two, do so with a rifle chambered in 22 LR to keep ammo costs down.
I reload 223/5.56 already, but even then, the best price I've been able to get is about $0.28 per round. Currently, decent 22 ammo is about the same or cheaper than just the small rifle primers for reloading. I do not have, and have not tried, any 22 that will equal my A4 in terms of accuracy at 100 yards when set up with aperture sights. I have one rifle that will match it overall, but it wears a 3-9 power scope. Part of that is the limit of the 22 LR cartridge and wind. Part of that is not being able to hand tailor loads like I can with the centerfire rifles. I could try some match 22 LR ammo, but that's more expensive than 223/5.56.
I reload 223/5.56 already, but even then, the best price I've been able to get is about $0.28 per round. Currently, decent 22 ammo is about the same or cheaper than just the small rifle primers for reloading. I do not have, and have not tried, any 22 that will equal my A4 in terms of accuracy at 100 yards when set up with aperture sights. I have one rifle that will match it overall, but it wears a 3-9 power scope. Part of that is the limit of the 22 LR cartridge and wind. Part of that is not being able to hand tailor loads like I can with the centerfire rifles. I could try some match 22 LR ammo, but that's more expensive than 223/5.56.
