.38 Special +P 165gr. Hollow-Point Wadcutters (not reversed HBWCs!)

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

NOTE: I consulted a variety of sources to develop this load, and while I do not know for certain that it is a +P load prudence dictates that it should be treated as such. It does not exhibit any signs of excessive pressure, recoil etc. but one should always err on the side of caution when approaching third-party load data. This load should only be used in +P rated firearms until or unless pressure levels can be accurately determined.

Wadcutters are often recommended for 2" .38 snubbies, and watching several FBI-style gel tests I noted that sometimes wadcutters were mushrooming slightly. Now I am aware that reverse-hollow-base wadcutters have been around for decades but in my own and others tests these tend to underpenetrate pretty badly. The standard is 12-19" of penetration after passing through four layers of 16 oz. gel and generally reverse HBWCs make 6-1/2 to 8" in tests I have seen and in my own tests. The hollow base is just too deep and they over-expand and underpenetrate.

So standard wadcutters expand barely if at all, and RHBWCs over-expand and under-penetrate. I'm a curious guy, and I wondered if there might not be a happy medium. Yes, I am aware of HST Micro, but that doesn't seem to be made anymore.
I have a mold for a 165gr. LRN flat point, so I cast some soft lead bullets and cobbled up a punch and die to swage them into what I had in mind. The result was a 165gr. Wadcutter with a wide, shallow hollow-point about 1/8" deep. After some research and experiments I arrived at a load of 4.1gr of W-231 with a CCI500 primer loaded to an overall length of 1.27" and proceeded to test them in Clear Ballistics gel with four layers of denim.

Unfortunately my chronograph wasn't cooperating today so I didn't get a good reading, but my guesstimate is 700-725 fps. I fired two shots into the gel through 4 layers of denim, resulting in 12.5" and 14" of penetration with the bullets expanding to an approximate average of .55-.56" from my S&W Model 642. Both bullets lost around 4-5gr. of lead in the gel.

BTW load data was generated based on a 170gr. load that is well within the range of SAAMI standard pressure. My bullet is slightly lighter but is seated deeper. I think it is probably not a +P load, but even if it is the 642 is rated for it.
I'm really happy with this result, and as always a little surprised that one of my ideas actually worked. I'll have to see if I can get chrono readings another time.

 

[horsemen61]

Awesome job question what did you use to cobble together your swage setup?

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Awesome job question what did you use to cobble together your swage setup?

I drilled a hole in a piece of mild steel, reamed it to .357. Then I took some 1/2" mild-steel rod and turned it to shape on my lathe to make the punch.

 

[cfullgraf]

Cool process. Nice work.

My main concern is with cylinder reloads. Wadcutters are not the easist to get to reload in the gun due to the squared off nose.

I use soft lead SWC bullets for my 38 Special short barrel guns, they help feed the cylinder better than wadcutters especially when paired with moon clipos.

Getting a hollow point would improve their performance of the bullet and provide easier reload capability..

 

[reddog81]

Max load for a 148 grain wadcutter according to Hodgdons is 4.0 grains 231. You’re using a larger bullet and more powder. The 170 grain bullet will normally have more bullet outside the case than a wadcutter. Hodgdons website shows a max load for a 170 grain sierra JHC to be 4.1 grains.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Max load for a 148 grain wadcutter according to Hodgdons is 4.0 grains 231. You’re using a larger bullet and more powder. The 170 grain bullet will normally have more bullet outside the case than a wadcutter. Hodgdons website shows a max load for a 170 grain sierra JHC to be 4.1 grains.

While looking at load data from a variety of sources I am not certain this is a +P load but I have been treating it as such and deliberately used a test-gun rated for +P. It is seated to the same depth as a wadcutter, meaning a portion of the bullet does protrude from the case. While there are no signs that this load exhibits excessive or unsafe pressure I should have specified that it should be treated as a +P load, so not doing so was my bad. I've corrected the original post to reflect this. Thanks for the catch.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I'd like to see a manufacturer offer a solid copper monolithic wadcutter with a sharp shoulder.

The wadcutter's sharp shoulder cuts flesh neatly, just like it does on a paper target. It doesn't need to expand. It crushes a caliber sized hole from beginning to end of the wound track. Whereas the wound track of expanding bullets decreases in diameter as they penetrate because the rounded "shoulder" and edges of the mushroom skirt allow tissues to flow around the bullet.

A solid copper wadcutter doesn't deform as readily as lead, which increases terminal effects, and may increase performance through light barrier materials as well.

I've seen folks cast wadcutters in zinc, but zinc probably wears the barrel more than copper.

Wadcutters are preferred for lightweight snubs because of their light recoil. They achieve adequate penetration, and don't require added velocity to expand.

Federal Gold Medal Match 148gr lead wadcutter is the load of choice for snubs.

 

[armoredman]

Now get NOE to make the mold, and I'll buy one, love the idea. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Pat Riot]

@Michael Tinker Pearce Good work. I like your creation. That is very cool. Congratulations.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I kind of like it, although I'm in the "wadcutter does not need to expand" camp. On reloads, I carry wadcutters in the gun, but my speed loader holds round nose bullets. I would not want to try reloading wadcutters in a tense situation.

Well, not a .38 or .357, but I do like wadcutters for self defense. I have found they tend to tumble when loaded over 800fps. ? Anyone else experience that?

 

[Jim Watson]

My main concern is with cylinder reloads. Wadcutters are not the easist to get to reload in the gun due to the squared off nose.

Your reload doesn’t HAVE to be the same as the ammo in the gun.
i shoot IDPA SSR with wadcutters at the LAMR, roundnose in the speedloaders.

 

[cfullgraf]

Your reload doesn’t HAVE to be the same as the ammo in the gun.
i shoot IDPA SSR with wadcutters at the LAMR, roundnose in the speedloaders.

True.

 

[lee n. field]

Interesting.

2-3 months back I was at a gun store i get to whenever work takes me that way. They had some severely discounted Buffalo Bore 150grain .38 wadcutters on their stray weird stuff shelf. (I suspect they came in with a trade in gun.) I cleaned them out, 5 boxes of 20, $15/box. Claimed 850 fps. Contemplating switching my snubby carry to them.

 

[CajunBass]

I've been shooting a lot of Berry's 148 Wadcutters lately. I'd sort of forgotten how much fun they are, especially out of a 642. Oh heck, ESPECIALLY out of a 67-1. I'm using the standard charge of Bullseye powder, or will for as long as I have some, which won't be long. Then I suppose I'll switch over to 231 which I can still find.

 

[Anchorite]

I kind of like it, although I'm in the "wadcutter does not need to expand" camp. On reloads, I carry wadcutters in the gun, but my speed loader holds round nose bullets. I would not want to try reloading wadcutters in a tense situation.
View attachment 1178502
Well, not a .38 or .357, but I do like wadcutters for self defense. I have found they tend to tumble when loaded over 800fps. ? Anyone else experience that?

Yes, I have seen them keyhole. Thanks for the idea, as I have some 150s out in the garage on my bench I need to load up and fool with.

 

[Buckeye63]

@Michael Tinker Pearce
Looks like u have a great SD load there

 

[halfmoonclip]

We tried Skeeter Skelton's 'planet wrecker specials', back in the day. Hollow base wadcutters, loaded backwards, over a coal scoop of 2400. Actually chronoed them out of a 2.5" 66, and they were someplace close to 1100'sec. They were rorty, even out of the 66, but the primers aren't excessively flattened.
Ayoob's advice (no custom ammo for carry) led me to not use them. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player.... You don't have to take Mas' advice.
They have been in the ammo locker since 28 Sep 82.
Have been loading Full Charge Wadcutters, Berry's plated, loaded to the level of the old 158 RNL.
Moon

 

[Ugly Sauce]

We tried Skeeter Skelton's 'planet wrecker specials', back in the day. Hollow base wadcutters, loaded backwards, over a coal scoop of 2400. Actually chronoed them out of a 2.5" 66, and they were someplace close to 1100'sec. They were rorty, even out of the 66, but the primers aren't excessively flattened.
Ayoob's advice (no custom ammo for carry) led me to not use them. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player.... You don't have to take Mas' advice.
They have been in the ammo locker since 28 Sep 82.
Have been loading Full Charge Wadcutters, Berry's plated, loaded to the level of the old 158 RNL.
Moon

And no tumbling?

 

[halfmoonclip]

And no tumbling?

Not that I recall. But there are only 15 rounds gone from that long ago box.
The loads were never meant for more than bad breath distance.
Moon

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Not that I recall. But there are only 15 rounds gone from that long ago box.
The loads were never meant for more than bad breath distance.
Moon

Truth. As I recall, mine didn't tumble until after ten yards or so. But not wanting to limit myself to bad breath distance, I slowed them down. On velocity, perhaps it was over 900fps that mine tumbled, I think my .44spl 180 grain wadcutters are right at 800fps without tumbling. Or at least not out to 25 yards.

 

[CajunBass]

I'm another who used to read Skeeter, and I too tried the reverse wadcutter idea. At the time I was using a Lee "Wack-A-Mole" Loader for my reloading, heck, I'm not much advanced over that even now, but not knowing any better I just used the standard scoop of Bullseye (2.7?) grains, and seated the bullet (reversed "Zero" brand 148 HBWC) flush with the case mouth same as always. Just backward. Pressure? What's pressure? At least I was using a 357 revolver for this foolishness.

I got no idea what kind of velocity I was getting with those things, frontward or backward, but the reverse ones made a really impressive hole in a bank of Virginia red clay from 5-7 yards or so. I could have shoved my fist in there. It left a perfect "impact crater" as I remember. It wasn't deep, but then a bank of red clay is pretty dense. I can't remember ever recovering a bullet.

Which as Jeff Cooper used to say was handy to know in case I was ever attacked by a bank of Virginia red clay.