targets for sd/hd practice should have human shape?

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bullseyebob47

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some say a human shaped target will help desensitize your natural desire not to kill a bad human even in life or death situations.


Dave Grossman's book On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in war and Society...

There is a substantial body of evidence demonstrating humans' seemingly natural aversion to killing. Much of the research in this area has been conducted by the military; analysts have found that soldiers tend to intentionally fire over the enemy's head, or not to fire at all.

Studies of combat activity during the Napoleonic and Civil Wars revealed stirking statistics. Given the ability of the men, their proximity to the enemy, and the capacity of their weapons, the number of enemy soldiers hit should have been well over 50 percent, resulting in a killing rate of hundreds per minute. Instead, however, the hit rate was only one o two per minute. And a similar phenomenon occured during World War I: according to british Lieutenant George Roupell, the only way he could get his men to stop firing into the air was by drawing his sword, walking down the trench, "beating [them] on the backside and ... telling them to fire low".1 World War II fire rates were also remarkably low: historian and US Army Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall rerported that, during battle, the firing rate was a mere 15 to 20 percent; in other words, out of every hundred men engaged in a firefight, only fifteen to twenty actually used their weapons. And in Vietnam, for every enemy soldiers killed, more than fifty thousand bullets were fired.2

What these studies have taught the miltiary is that in order to get soldiers to shoot to kill, to actively participate in violence, the soldiers must be sufficiencly desensitized to the act of killing. In other words, they have to learn not to feel -- and not to ffeel responsible -- for their actions. They must be taught to override their own conscience. yet these studies also demonstrate that even in the face of immediate danger, in situations of extreme violence, most people are averse to killing. In other words, as Marshall concludes, "the vast majority of combatants throughout history, at the moment of truth when they could and should kill the enemy, have found themselves to be 'conscientious objectors'
 
I agree that practicing on human-shaped targets is beneficial in the sense of desensitization as supported by your research. However, it seems that practicing on targets of the human form also allows the shooter to think about hitting vital areas instead of a perfectly circular bullseye. Whenever I use a human-shaped target I make an effort to hit where the lungs, heart and other vitals would be so that I can be used to aiming for those areas if I ever (hopefully never, obviously) need to employ my marksmanship abilities in that way.

Of course, an assailant isn't always going to be fully exposed like the target is but I feel that it is at least important that we train our brains to target vitals. Game-shaped targets for hunting are an excellent example of this idea.
 
The shape of your stationary paper target will do very little to simulate the dynamic realities of shooting on a two-way range.

Have you ever been hunting?

Do you feel that your choice of target for sighting in your hunting rifle had any impact on the outcome of your hunt?
 
There's not enough relationship between the training of a soldier and of a civilian defensive shooter for Grossman's work to be applicable.

We don't have the repetition, frequency, environment to actually desensitize ourselves to shapes.
 
...and then there is the fact that Grossman based his "work" on the thoroughly discredited SLA Marshall.

...and then there is Grossman's very own brand of nitt-wittery in which he weighs forth on various subjects without any sort of valid quantitative measure, often making statements contrary to the findings of actual research.
Grossman also explained how gangs and even Islamic extremists use video games to train for marksmanship.
http://www.glennbeck.com/2013/01/03...-dave-grossman-about-gun-violence-in-schools/

Seriously? I mean, SERIOUSLY?

Dave Grossman is an idiot.
 
Hey, just as nitwits here think that video games produce cold hearted efficient killers, I'm sure many do over there as well. That might actually explain their relative infectivity in combat compared to people that actually know what they're doing (i.e. their old veterans-turned-leaders and our trained soldiers and commanders)

TCB
 
How about citing examples to support your criticisms?
Now surely Mr.Dodson you can see that Grossman's assertion that somehow clicking a mouse makes one into a more effective marksman is utter idiocy.


You're a Moderator, correct? Shouldn't you lead by example and not resort to name calling?
Sure, perhaps idiot was the wrong word. Mea culpa.

Grossman is a fear monger and an academic fraud and was exposed as such more than a decade ago. He owes his success to selling and telling a story that certain elements of society WANT to believe, not through good research.

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp

http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
 
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One serious flaw in this 'study' is the lack of reference to the STRESS of the SITUATION , namely combat, and what that effect it might have on the gun battles referenced. Getting shot at would surely mess with my aim, I am certain.

One can not compare the shot-to-kill ratios of Napoleonic warfare with the stk ratios of Vietnam without comparing what stress does to aiming. I also did not note the fact that Napoleonic muskets were relatively inaccurate as compared to modern weapons and those soldiers stood shoulder to shoulder and simply fired at the opposing wall of soldiers. Vietnam, American soldiers were basically taught to spray and pray, not to mention the STK ratio count includes bullets fired by high speed machine guns mounted in airplanes. And to include the intentional overhead shooting by soldiers of both sides in WWI is plain silly. That action was intended as protest of the war!

Is there an inherent aversion to killing another human? I belive there is, but his study is a joke.

Silly Grossman
 
After reading all those Armed Citizen reports in The American Rifleman, years and years worth, I cannot recall one where the protagonist failed to fire because he or she had not been desensitized. Anyone paying half attention to the antics of people loose upon the earth
knows better than to buy into Grossman's thesis. People who devise training programs for a living are, of course, delighted with it.
 
There is a substantial body of evidence demonstrating humans' seemingly natural aversion to killing.

I would sincerely hope so. I don't ever want to be desensitized to killing another human being.

I refuse to use a target that is shaped as a human being and I don't care what any of the rest say about it.

I know where the "vitals" of a human being are and if I am cornered and my family is in jeopardy, yes, I will act accordingly as a lot of you would.

Until that time comes I will never practice shooting human shaped targets to de-sensitize myself to killing another human being. Period!

bullseyebob, I have to agree with you last paragraph. It's hard enough to live with the baggage of guilt for what we've done or had to do, for the rest of our lives, without practicing it, by shooting at human shaped targets.

We part company here.
 
I believe the point of SD/HD training is to learn to hit the vital parts, which logically is easier to train on using man-shaped targets rather than typical concentric ring targets.

In SD/HD, you have a different mindset than a soldier, though there are some direct analogies, of course. The key word in self-defense and home-defense is "defense". That's the only time civilians are typically authorized to use deadly force. For the military, defense is only one of several times in which deadly force is authorized, and this requires a different type of training/mindset. (I'm lumping defense of self and others into one, here.)

It is one thing to intentionally kill another human being in an act of self-defense and quite another to deliberately kill another human being who may simply be an enemy sitting behind some sand bags waiting, or an escaping prisoner, or somebody stealing property inherently dangerous to others.


For self-defense purposes, it's not really necessary to "desensitize" a person by shooting at human shaped targets in order to overcome the reluctance to shoot another. The classic "fight of flight" takes care of most of that...you will do what you have to in order to survive.

The military training is different...it's not so much desensitizing a person by shooting at human shaped targets, it's being trained not to think of the enemy as a human on the same level that the soldier operates on. The "enemy" becomes, essentially, a "non-entity" or "non-human" in order for the soldier to overcome his reluctance to kill, and in order to come to terms with his actions afterwards.

An example of this is the fact that it is psychologically easier to kill a human being whom you either cannot see, cannot visualize as a human, or who is at a distance than it is to kill at much closer distances.
 
This did not desensitize me. I hope never to have to shoot anyone but if absolutely necessary.
IMG_4339.jpg
 
I think the police here use human torso silhouettes for targets. As long as a person hits where they are aiming I do not think the shape of the target is too critical. If I can hit a 12 oz soda can at 25 or 50 yards I think I will be able to use a weapon effectively in a self-defense situation.
 
Take a simple cardboard silhouette and flip it so there are no markings. Make a few rapid draw, present, fire drills and see how you group and where you hit. It is disturbing to see how random our shot placement becomes without small references to focus on. How wide our groups become when there's no "bull's eye".

Belief in what you think you'll do simply doesn't trump practice and practice with a proper simulated target trumps that with one too abstract or too detailed (both of which are not representative of what you may need to face).

If you're going to practice to defend your life you should practice a lot with a silhouette that you can't make out the center readily. You should work your way through the discouraging initial stage where you just don't seem to focus your groupings. Eventually you'll start to integrate the general shape into references where you get back to centered groups that are tight enough to restore some of your shattered confidence.
 
steel horse rider said:
If I can hit a 12 oz soda can at 25 or 50 yards I think I will be able to use a weapon effectively in a self-defense situation.

Yeah, kind of like since I can drive at 70 MPH on the interstate I would be able to effectively use an Indy car in competition. Gas pedal and brake pedal work the same in both.
 
I guess I don't understand your point. My point was that if you have control of your weapon good enough to hit a smaller than head size target at medium range you should be able to hit a head sized target at close range. I understand that with some people the panic or adrenalin factor will change things but I don't think shooting a paper silhouette of a person is a training aid against panic or excitement either. Maybe you are suggesting that we shoot at live targets?
 
It seems some terrorists did quite well flying airliners with nothing more than video gaming and a few hours in a light plane. There does seem to be some benefit.

The armed forces and LEO's use interactive video to practice scenarios and shot placement. The FATS simulators have thousands of encounters and were even used in our CCW classes. I already had hours on them in the Reserves.

What does the military do in marksmanship training? You shoot small targets - bullseyes - to get the rifle and sights accurized, and to emphasize what it takes to make a hit on target. In a larger range shooting at distances up to 400m, they use a simple pop up silhouette. On a range emphasizing team coordinated fire, they have advancing 3D targets pop up at three second rush intervals.

Each has their distinctive indicators to place shots. It's not a three square foot white target with nothing on it. If you aim small, you miss small, use targets that have small indicators to place your shots.

If you don't like the reality of shooting a human torso, don't. Initially, it's something that doesn't need to be emphasized, but the more you shoot, the more the target and it's purpose as a simulation becomes ingrained. The aggressor isn't going to have a little black circle on them - keeping a bullet effectively in the center of mass means shooting simulated targets that present different interpretations of the human torso.

That's why police and military practice with the photo targets - and to mix things up, you can paste on a bag of groceries where the previous one had a gun. You don't get to automatically shoot, you have to make a conscious decision and interpret what that specific target communicates.

Goes to not shooting a family member stumbling in late inebriated. Seems to be a problem in apartment complexes, too - the neighbor in the next stairwell is just lost and mad the wife won't open the door.

Paper target shooting doesn't make you interpret that shot better. If anything, the point of shooting to point of aim as skill is something that needs practice, but it's not the most important thing to practice.

Shoot - no shoot is.

That's why the subject seems a bit silly to me - in the big picture, there is much higher priority decision to train and practice. Shooting close to the point of aim is just a skill, shooting the wrong target completely is being ignored.
 
Dave Grossman's book On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in war and Society...

There is a substantial body of evidence demonstrating humans' seemingly natural aversion to killing. Much of the research in this area has been conducted by the military; analysts have found that soldiers tend to intentionally fire over the enemy's head, or not to fire at all.

I don't dispute this, especially with bodies of men coerced into "service". Its a whole different issue one on one, up close and personal. Once "flight or fight" biology kicks in you can forget about nuances of trigger control and "aim small miss small".

I consider "instinctive" point shooting practice on human silhouette targets essential. When my wife and I do this she sometimes says "you're making me nervous" and I reply "you don't think you going to be even more nervous if some scumbag is attacking you?"


I don't think shooting a paper silhouette of a person is a training aid against panic or excitement either
Absolutely, IMHO this is the best reason to shoot IPSC IDPA, etc. matches. I never cared about the "gaming" but it was a safe way to put some pressure on while shooting.

Other than for sighting in or teaching the fundamentals I don't use targets with "aiming points".

Maybe you are suggesting that we shoot at live targets?
Doing some hunting from time to time is not a bad idea :)
 
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I don’t believe for a second that humans have a natural aversion to killing other humans, if anything I think the opposite is true. I also am fairly confident that Grossman isn’t quite the expert he claims to be.

I use silhouette targets similar to those in post 17 with the day glow reactive targets on the vital areas I never gave any though to “desensitizing” myself and I never thought that on the rifle range in the Army I knew those targets weren’t human beings.

When I do range qualifications for the church security team they use the same targets used at gun site, the camouflaged looking silhouettes with a scoring circle in the center and I always qualify with a high score
 
I think human looking targets should be used for defense training shooting practice but I think the rest of it is bull crap.
 
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