The Truth about Killing

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Iain

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(Hope this fits somewhere, I believe it has an impact on the way we must view ourselves and our abilities. I will return to this later.)

Just watched a Channel Four documentary shown over here. Got to say it was pretty interesting watching. It focussed on some research done after the Second World War by a General Marshall of the US Army. He interviewed thousands (programme was not specific) of soldiers returning from Europe and found that only 20% of soldiers fire. Only 2% shot with the deliberate intention of killing.

2%. The Air Force was shocked by this and did it's own research. They found that 50% of their 'kills' were the work of a similar percentage of their pilots. Other research into soldiers on the front line found that around a quarter urinate or defecate in the moments of extreme stress.

That last point was where the programme took up it's investigation. The stress of combat. The reporter took part in an airsoft night combat game run by former British soldiers and found that he personally suffered pretty excessive strain. Other tests he did on himself repeated this. He talked to a former US Army Ranger, now a professor at Utah (if I recall) and to a former British para who fought in one of the nastiest battles in the Falklands campaign. They both agreed on one particular thing, best exemplified by this quote from the para - 'It requires forceful thought to kill another.'

The psychologists interviewed agreed that in those moments of stress the hindbrain, the older part of the brain, takes over from the forebrain. People report 'brain freezing' and 'tunnel vision', the strange conclusion the ones they spoke to came to was that it is not part of our natural behaviour to kill our own species. I admit, at this point I was raising an eyebrow.

So what about all the firing in the chaos of battle? The former Army Ranger regards it as posturing, threat displays etc. When animals square up a lot of it is show to establish dominance. My dog gets involved in the odd scrap with other aggressive dogs, neither animal gets killed (at least not until I intervene) Gorillas rarely fight. Chimps occasionally kill other chimps that stray on to their territory, and they are often seen as incredibly violent animals by primate researchers. The programme discussed the role of bright uniforms in Napoleonic armies, again posturing threat displays (hence the tall hats and the big bayonets) according to the programme.

It got interesting when they looked at some research the Prussian army did. They got soldiers to fire at targets, achieving a hit rate of 70+%. However in the closer ranges of battle they found that a volley, which could theoretically kill 500 enemy, killed just three. Three.

At Gettysburg, the programme claims, of the 1,000's of weapons collected at the end of the battle many were loaded. One was loaded 23 times all in one barrel. The soldier concerned was capable of reloading and aiming like his comrades and as required, but he was unwilling or unable to fire.

So what about artillery, tank crews who apparently were less concerned. Distance is the answer according to the programme. The blindfold is for the executioner, not the 'victim'. A man screaming for help in front of you is much harder to shoot than another metal box 400yds away or a square of ground you can't even see.

So, the 2% willing to do what all men say they could do if required. Half of them are sociopaths according to research. People for whom the act means nothing, it requires the same level of emotional response as eating breakfast. The other half are men capable of emotions but also capable of violence. That means that in 1945 1% of the US Army, according to Gen. Marshall's research and to the conclusions of this programme, were men prepared to kill and non-sociopathic behaviours.

Worrying eh? So where does that leave us? We may say that if we had to we could, but could we really? Even if our very lives or the lives of our children depended on it - could we kill? And what about those that are threatening our lives - are they in that 1% of killing capable sociopaths?

The other implication that I thought of is this - maybe Feinstein has something of a point when she says 'assault rifles are spray and pray' - maybe the 'mousegun' cartridges were introduced so that the 98% of soldiers who panic and may pull the trigger may just be useful. I bet you all hate me for saying that Feinstein may have a point (course doesn't mean I support her or think that 'assault rifles' should be banned).

Thanks for reading what I bet is nonsense on my part.
 
All those figures come from a book by a guy named Gossman(or maybe its Grossman, I can't remember exactly) called On Killing. Its a good read if you ever get the chance. I thought the story about the Civil War musket with 23 rounds in the barrel profound.
 
That was the name of the former Ranger. Thanks, will try and get hold of a copy. Destroys any respect I had for the originality of the programme too.
 
Interesting take.

This seems to intermesh with some of the work I am doing regarding PTSD. Specifically with Combat PTSD which is something that is almost completely overlooked or missunderstood by the very people the veterans are trying to get help from.
 
A cautionary tale for all the chest thumpers out there who woof about what they're gonna do when the time comes.
 
I have said many times that mental preparedness is more critical to self defense than anything. People think they will change magazines or clear weapons just because they know that this is the right thing to do will get a rude suprise when all that knowledge leaves them and they are trying to pull the trigger at slidelock, or when they wake up after their revolver clicks instead of bangs for the 6th or 7th time. I know people that insist they will count their shots in a gunfight, when the majority of people that have come before have had no clue as to how many rounds they actually expended.

I would agree that being armed without being ready for what is going to happen to your mind is probably a waste.

David
 
I have a hard time with the 2% number as that just does not jive at all with the former combatants that I am familiar with. I suppose I hang out with a bunch of sociopaths. :) (you guys know who you are) :)

Seriously though that percentage seems far to low. I'm not a sociopath, but the one time that I thought I was going to have to shoot somebody, it was more like the eating breakfast comment above. Luckily I didn't have too.

I have heard this before, but I don't buy into it.
 
Correia -

This time next week the great British public is due another installment, the trailer for which suggested that the Armies of the world have managed to radically improve upon those figures since 1945.

I have just ordered the book by Grossman mentioned above, should be an interesting read.
 
There are documented cases of ciminals actually emptying long guns by operating the actions w/o firing a single round. I actually witnessed this behaviour in a traffic stop by a fellow deputy. Felony car stop of bank robbery suspects. The suspects fired first. I returned fire. I saw the other deputy working the Ithaca hard. The after action review showed that I had scored. ALL of the other deputys' shells were unfired. The Ithaca performed flawlessly and fired in testing afterwards. I have always held that the same was true for the Gettysburgh soldier. He did as he was trained. He simply didn't pull the trigger or he forgot to cock his weapon.
 
Maybe I'm the sociopath. I didn't necessarily like killing but I was there. The enemy was there and my comrades were there.

I won't lie to you. I didn't want to go. I'm also certain every man that climbed in an LCT on D-day weighed the possibility of saying "no, I won't go".

I imagine it was even harder for the second wave sitting off shore and watching the sheer madness of the first wave wading neck deep through raging tides into withering machine gun fire.

The bottom line for me and the guys I still keep in touch with was not letting each other down.

Nothing, not God, Country, the Flag, Mom, Apple pie, my dog...nothing mattered more than not letting those guys down.

They went so I went. I went so they went.

You don't face rifle fire for any more noble cause than the guy next to you.

Anyone that says any different was either too high in the air or too far away to know any better.
 
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Orion

Nothing, not God, Country, the Flag, Mom, Apple pie, my dog...nothing mattered more than not letting those guys down.

Very well stated. That's what it's all about.
 
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I would add, though, that one's reluctance to kill diminishes remarkably after having been shot! The first few encounters I had (civil unrest situations in another country) I was pretty much dithering, trying to make it through but worried about my own survival. Then I got shot, and during the recovery process, my thinking concentrated wonderfully... something along the lines of "If I don't want this to happen again, I'd better do unto my attacker(s) before he/they get the chance to do unto me!" Thereafter, use of lethal force in self-defence was no longer a major concern for me.
 
I have a hard time with the 2% number as that just does not jive at all with the former combatants that I am familiar with.

The book goes on to say that because of better training, the percentage of soldiers willing to fire in combat has gone up. Something like 25% in WWII, 50% by Korea, and 90% by Vietnam.
 
I have an alternate theory about the higher % in Vietnam. When the enemy is close enough that you can SEE him shooting at you, the "hindbrain" takes over and you start fighting back.
 
I have seen shows along those lines before. IIRC, the conventional thinking is that subtle changes in the training regimen, e.g., using people-shaped targets instead of plain vanilla paper, help to desensitize combatants to the act of killing, i.e., they see the enemy more as targets than human beings. This is of course a good thing. It reminds me of the thread recently where a poster asked what feelings we might have towards a person threatening us, whether we would take the time to identify with their plight. The general concensus was that empathizing with your enemy during combat/SD only allows more time for the enemy/BG to take your life instead of the other way around.
 
Snipers take kill shots of a rather personal nature. I believe that teams are set up of a Spotter and a Shooter for psychological reasons.

It is one thing to talk about shooting someone but a rather different thing to actually do it. In combat NCO's (the pros) go about making sure what needs to be done is being done. When someone is shooting at you the pucker factor runs extremely high. It is not extremely uncommon for someone to wet his pants or have a bowel movement.

I also believe you fight for your buddies and not for some highly profound reason. You simply do what you have to do. I have yet to meet any combat vet who talks fondly about killing. There are also a lot of guys who still have nightmares and really bad memories.

Having to kill changes you forever.
 
S.L.A. Marshall is the army historian whose book post WWII book, "Men under fire," established that only a very small percentage of men fire their weapons in combat. Unfortunately, Marshall never actually conducted the research that he said he did to come up with his statistics and evidently based the figures on what he thought was a reasonable estimate. This all came to light a few years ago and now this research has been discredited. Unfortunately, many people don't know that the research should no longer be considered valid and continue to reference it in their material. It's one of the "dirty little secrets" of recent military historians.
 
I got a "D" in psychology (I hated that mumble-jumble) but Grossman's book was one that I couldn't put down. It explained a lot of things I've read about concerning soldiers in combat.
 
Grossman's book, On Killing, is quite good. It's not written as a professional paper or text and is readable to the average person. Grossman teaches at an Arkansas university, the one in Jonestown(?) where there was a school shooting a few years ago.
 
OK. Several items:

1. Dave Grossman used to teach at Arkansas State University in JONESBORO, Arkansas
2. Jonesboro IS the site of one of the shootings
3. "On Killing" is a great book and the taped seminar "The Bulletproof Mind" is a good thing to listen to while driving long distances. The material in the latter is pretty much the same as in "On Killing" but is updated a little bit (book was published in 1995, I believe, while the audio was in 2000 or 2001 or so).

www.killology.com
www.calibrepress.com

I've learned a lot about the Jonesboro shootings since moving to this part of Arkansas. I live down the street from a teacher who was there and have made friends with a SWAT guy who was there.

Did you know that one of the kids, I forget which one, shot competitively in local matches? The SWAT guy had actually shot with him a week or two before the shootings.

Give Grossman's book a read. It's very well written and is aimed not at a scholarly audience but at the average cop. It's pretty straightforward. The audio is actually well worth getting, even if you have the book. Grossman is a good speaker. I'd like to listen to a live speech. The guy still lives in the Jonesboro area but the schedule on his web site makes it look like he lives in hotels most of the year.

FYI, he's co-authored a sci-fi book (will be a series) that is supposedly a realistic depiction of combat (according to his studies) but is set in the future. Since I don't buy hardbacks, I guess I'll be waiting until the paperback comes out.
 
I second reading the Grossman book if your interested in this subject.

He discusses the history of military conditioning to kill and how it improved from WWII through Vietnam. I was never in that kind of situation, but I know men who were - they all say the same thing, when the SHTF you revert to your training.

What I liked about the book is Grossman discusses how the military institutionalizes the conditioning - its done within a controlled structure complete with authority, traditions and other social controls to keep the conditioning in check.

What I don't like about the book is he goes a bit freudian in some of his explanations.

He also discusses video games, which conditions a "shooter" in much the same manner as the military does - but without the institutional social structure of the military to keep it in check.

As far as Snipers and killing, read Adrian Gilbert's book, "Sniper". His quotes from snipers from WWI and WWII are pretty chilling. Definately not your rank and file soldier.
 
As far as Snipers and killing, read Adrian Gilbert's book, "Sniper". His quotes from snipers from WWI and WWII are pretty chilling. Definately not your rank and file soldier.

Dammit, I wish I'd read this yesterday. I was just in Salt Lake and saw that very book. I knew I should have picked it up. :scrutiny: I guess I didn't because I was actually looking for "On Killing." Strange old world, isn't it?

Wes
 
"On Killing"

I read the book last year. Actually I didn't like it to much. The author is to much of a freudian psychologist and the book seemed to me to be more a compilation of quotes from various other authors with grossman's commentary interspersed. I did go out and buy the books that he was quoting from though, and all of them were excellent, with the exception of SLAM Marshalls books, which have been proven inaccurate. I would especially recommend, I think it is titled "The Art of War". I cannot think of the author's name offhand, but it is about the british in the Falklands. Very good read.
 
if you get a chance to attend a seminar by Col. Grossman, it is well worth the cost and time. he speaks well and has the ability, and qualifications, to hold the audience with a combination of facts, stories and just "downhome" humor.

my sig line is a quote i took a liking to when i heard him speak...very plain but also very deep if you care to go there.

striker3 - i'm going to assume your not confusing the title of the book you read with the classic Sun Tzu's "Art of War"... which is also a great read
 
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