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Taurus PT 92: what am I doing wrong?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by KJS, Oct 26, 2010.

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  1. KJS

    KJS Member

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    I fired 46 rounds, as I know I started with a box of 50 and have a mag with 4 rounds remaining in it.

    You only need to see the bottom half of the target as nothing hit above the center. By my later shots, I was so frustrated by the universally low hits that I intentionally aimed way up high up on the paper, and still this is what I got. By my count there are 41 or 42 hits, so a few entirely missed the paper, and I think I can reasonably guess those few likely blew past under the target.

    Before I had the problem of adjustable sights on a Ruger MK III that wouldn't stop moving; now I get the wonder of fixed sights that avoid that issue, but when the 3 dots are lined up on the bulls eye they produce these results.

    I've read that when one using a fixed sight gun has a problem aiming, most often the shooter and not the gun is the problem. So what am I doing wrong here? When using the old S&W .38 with fixed sights I actually do well, probably as well or better than I can manage with a .357 two generations newer.

    Right to left the shots seem relatively centered with no strong bias left nor right -- yeah, they tend a bit more to the right -- so not perfect, but I'd say centered by novice standards. Clearly, not even close to centered up & down though.

    I did notice something about the casing I was able to recover from the range floor. The firing pin didn't strike them dead on center. Actually, it hit them as far off center as any I've seen. I don't know what, if any, significance that might have. I think you can see it well enough in the pic below. My camera, unfortunately, is pretty poor at capturing images up real close to get fine detail.

    The rest of the range session I blasted away away fast as I could pull the trigger on my MK III, shown only to prove I actually can hit the center, even if I can't manage a tight group -- though with practice I hope to just have one ragged hole in the middle.
     

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  2. mbogo

    mbogo Member

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    All that shows is that the ammunition you used does not shoot to point of aim.

    Were you using 115gr., 124gr., 147gr. bullets, or something else?

    You can try a different brand/bullet weight, take up reloading, or file the sights to match your load.

    mbogo
     
  3. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    Your shots are stringed vertically, rather than horizontally, so that's a good start. The primer strikes on the ammo look fine - yourr camera was more than sufficient.

    Based on your shot stringing (vertical), and the MKIII target, I'm going to say it's the gun, and not you. Start with a different brand of ammo, and see if that helps: You could've just gotten a box from a really undercharged lot, but then you probably would've noticied the light recoil and weak report. Still, try an ammo switch. How do you hold your fixed sights? As in X ring sitting atop the front post, or front post covering the X ring? That can also play a role. Last, you may just need a lower front sight, and possibly a higher rear sight to bring the groups up. It could be that your pistol's bbl just points low, relative to other PT-92s - we're talking a few degrees or less - when in battery, and it just needs a set of correct height sights to bring the groups up. If there were any serious full battery lock up issues I'd think you'd see horizontal stringing as well.
     
  4. Russ Jackson

    Russ Jackson member

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    Have someone watch you when you shoot. See if you are breaking your wrist?...Russ
     
  5. braceyourself07

    braceyourself07 Member

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    Any dings on the crown of the barrel? (obviously you'd want to check it after clearing it and stripping--I don't typically recommend looking down the barrel of an assembled gun) :D
     
  6. Steve C

    Steve C Member

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    I would say your jerking your trigger or breaking your wrist down, drooping your head or anticipating the recoil and pulling against it. Error Analysis
     
  7. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

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    I'm with Steve on this. You shoot your .22 very well - congratulations - but that doesn't always translate over to centerfires. If you are anticipating the recoil and dipping the muzzle of the gun, it will do exactly what you describe.

    Have someone reload a mag for you and slip in one or two dummy rounds without telling you where they are. As you fire, when you get to the dummy, you will be anticipating the recoil and dip the barrel. Under recoil from a live round you don't notice, but with the dummy not firing you will quickly see it.\

    Q
     
  8. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    Have you considered an inexpensive bore sighter laser? There are several options and you can see if your sights or bore are out of alignment. If they check out fine then you know it's you. Just a cheap solution.
     
  9. Kymasabe

    Kymasabe Member

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    My guess is that you're shooting 115gr practice ammo. I had a Taurus that consistantly shot low with 115. When I switched to 124, my point of impact came up a little and when I went to 147, it was perfect.
    The reason, as I was told, was that the heavier bullet takes a fraction of a second longer to exit the barrel, rides the recoil just a hair longer and the result is slightly higher impact. Try it, you have nothing to loose.
     
  10. lions

    lions Member

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    Shoot your 92 in DA for a couple shots and pull the trigger very slowly, making sure you get a surprise break. I also think you are anticipating the recoil and flinching as a result.

    If you had a nice tight group that was low then I would suspect the gun or ammo but there seems to be significant vertical stringing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  11. HK-Freak

    HK-Freak Member

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    The only way to know for sure whether it's you or the gun is to A) Shoot it from a bench rest, and B) Have a few other people shoot it.
     
  12. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    Well, the first thing you did wrong was buy a Taurus semi-auto. Beyond that, it can be either the gun or the shooter. My money's on the gun, as Taurus semis have a reputation for being hit and miss. You do well with a .38 and .357, so I doubt it's truly you.

    If it's not hitting the primer properly, it can result in poor primer ignition, with variable results from the powder. That indeed may be your problem. Different ammo with a different primer might yield better result, but most likely it's a flaw of the gun itself.
     
  13. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    :rolleyes: Taurus basher, disregard that post. It's just shooting low. I've had many firearms that shot low with lighter bullets. I'll either file some off the top of the front sight or shoot ammo it likes if I find one. Fixed sight guns don't necessarily come zeroed with ANYthing and if they do shoot POA, it'll be with one bullet weight that it prefers.
     
  14. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    Considering I've seen a number reports of PT1911's with spalling and metal fatigue due to substandard alloys, I wouldn't call it just bashing.
     
  15. lions

    lions Member

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    But without seeing any evidence of those particular problems here you are just throwing out an uneducated guess based on reports from a different gun in the Taurus line.
     
  16. Mags

    Mags Member

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    So what doe the PT1911 have to do with the PT92?

    I have found the PT92 to be one of Taurus' most reliable and proven designs. I beleive it is issued to Brazilian police and military. I have owned two and never had a problem with either.

    What is your experience with the model in question? Not the PT1911.
     
  17. lions

    lions Member

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    Oh, and in my experience, shooters have a reputation of being either hit or miss as well.;)

    Let's eliminate the easy problems before we take off headlong into random possibilities.
     
  18. Mags

    Mags Member

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    I juste reread WardenWolf's post and noticed he says this:
    LOL he's not even basing his opinion of Taurus on first hand experience. What a joke.

    We all have seen positive and negative reports on all types of guns but it's the first hand encounters that count.
     
  19. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    See, this is already morphing into a "Taurus is crap"....."NO IT"S NOT" thread. :rolleyes:

    Bench the gun at 25 and check groups with a variety of ammunition. If it groups POA with some 147 grain stuff and you don't particularly like 147 grain stuff (I don't), then you can slowly file the front sight down until you're on with whatever bullet you wanna shoot for carry or whatever you're doing with the gun.

    That's my MO, anyhow. I've filed a fair number of front sights in my day. Far better than getting a gun that shoots HIGH. Then all ya can do is hold low or change your sight picture to compensate. So, anyway, what I'm trying to say is the situation is normal and your POA is correctable with whatever you want to shoot in the gun.

    Personally, except for deep concealment (pocket) guns, I do prefer adjustable sights, especially if I'm going to shoot two loads, light and hot, as I do with my .357 magnums. Just adjust the sight and shoot the load appropriate for that sight setting.
     
  20. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    Whatever.

    How many links do you want me to post about any other gun line's problems? Kimber? Colt? Sig? Glock?! Please, man, every line has their lemons. You'd think you could add some substance instead of useless innuendo.
     
  21. Steelshooter101

    Steelshooter101 Member

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    I had a taurus PT92AFS for about 12 weeks and had the same problem. If you have small hands make sure the gun is comfortable to hold. I traded mine in for a loss on an FNX9 an love it.
     
  22. Yarddog

    Yarddog Member

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    I've owned a PT92 about 20 yrs ago, Wish I had NEVER sold it ; )
    Y/D PS As stated above Bench test deferent gr bullets
     
  23. Mikhail Weiss

    Mikhail Weiss Member

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    Here's my 2-cents, in a nutshell. Firm up your grip. Maintain the consistency of that grip from shot to shot. You put six(ish) in the black, demonstrating ability, but dumped the rest.

    Details below:

    At what range was the target shot, and what sort of sight picture did you use, and were those rounds fired SA, DA, or both?

    Your Taurus shows less L/R dispersion than the .22, but not quite as much vertical. Since what you're using sounds like a center hold (front sight dot centered between rear ones, front sight dot superimposed on the middle of the bullseye), I'd guess the following (assuming trigger control is relatively okay):

    Sights

    If the front sight blade is too tall, then leveling it in the rear sight notch will cause shots to go low, relative to point of aim. Likewise, if the front sight dot is too high, then aligning the front sight dot between the two rear ones will cause shots to go lower than point of aim.

    You

    This could be grip or trigger issue, so ...

    ...since you've clearly hit the middle at least six times, this indicates that you can, and the gun can, too. The likely cause of dumping the other forty-ish shots may be that you're anticipating recoil, thus either letting the barrel dip via relaxation in grip (which can sometimes be the result of trying too hard to make too perfect a shot), or you're subconsciously pushing the muzzle down just a tad before firing (as if you're trying to stop a rise with well-timed dip), or...

    ...you're not holding firmly and consistently from shot to shot. That is, you may be relaxing your grip between shots, working the sights and trigger correctly, but re-tightening your grip as you fire, a common consequence of which is vertical stringing, which varies by the degrees to which grip firmness does.

    I could be completely wrong, of course, but if even good shooters or bench-resting the thing yields the same results at the same distances, I'd think of the sights, first. (Though I'm told that different loads may yield different results, I've not seen any that dramatic, at least not at seven to ten yards.)
     
  24. KJS

    KJS Member

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    It was 115 gr. ammo. Sellier & Bellot brand as most of you likely know from the distinctive red lacquer they apply to seal the primer.

    Yeah, I too had been wondering about bullet weight, knowing that fixed sight guns are normally designed with a particular weight in mind -- like a .38 revolver designed with a classic 158 gr. load in mind.

    I know all guns point down slightly when sights are aligned to compensate for the rise of recoil during the milliseconds between ignition and bullet leaving barrel and heavier bullets will give more recoil and thus should hit higher I guess.
     
  25. KJS

    KJS Member

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    Hand Size

    If it's too big for my hands, then it's going to be too big for most of the population. Size feels comfortable to me, unlike most guns that clearly were made with average-size hands in mind, rather than my XL paws.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
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