Tavor X 95 or Higher end AR 15?

[briansmithwins]

have no interest in a Tavor and would not spend money on one. They have horrible ergonomics

Any particular horror you'd like to share? Or just general horror?

I shot my Tavor for a year at our local rifle match and would rate the ergonomics as better than an AR for these reasons:
1) Balance. The rearward balance keeps the weight back and makes extended offhand shooting much easier. The balance also makes holding the rifle with one hand to free the other easy.
2) Shortness. The rifle is just so handy if you're carrying it while around vehicles or in confined spaces.
3) Controls. All the controls are easy to manipulate and many are much bigger than their AR15 equivalents. The charging handle is big and placed for easy engagement. The mag and bolt release are set up in such a way that mag changes are easier and more positive than an AR. I've never missed the huge bolt release on the Tavor.
4) Design. The action of the rifle strips down to a few big parts that are easy to keep track of. Taking care of what's essentially an AK in bullpup format is simple and easy.

BSW

 

[benEzra]

have no interest in a Tavor and would not spend money on one. They have horrible ergonomics

I'd have to differ with that. I've shot both (Tavor SAR, not X95, and my Rock River AR), and I'd have to say the ergonomics of the Tavor *for me* are even better than the AR, which is not what I initially expected. The Tavor's safety is easier to manipulate, the mag release is even easier to use (and fully ambidextrous), and the balance is perfect. Swapping shoulders is easier, and it feels very light. It lifts more than a 16" AR under recoil, due to the shorter overall length, but feels stable and tracking the dot isn't a problem. Magazine changes are comparable to an AR, and the Tavor's bolt release location is far superior, IMO. The AR beats the Tavor in out-of-the-box trigger pull, though; the trigger pull on newer Tavors (both SAR and X95) isn't as heavy as the early SAR's, but it is still heavier than a typical AR. For a target gun, a Geissele trigger pack would be a good investment, but for a HD gun, the (newer) factory trigger works well.

horrible accuracy

I owned a 188-series mini-14 that exhibited horrible accuracy (greater than 5" groups at 100 yards, with match ammo). The Tavor is much better than that. Not at the same level as an AR, but not horrible; 2 MOA is probably a realistic expectation with good ammo. But a short PDW-style rifle isn't something you really put a precision optic on anyway; a red dot is a much better fit for it, IMO.

no redeeming features I can find

Ballistics of a 16" .223 in a package the same overall length as an AR SBR, yet non-NFA, with a CHF barrel, great ergonomics, and superb reliability. It's certainly not for everyone, and they are pricey, but for a HD carbine or fun plinker, it has a lot going for it.

 

[stinger 327]

I'd have to differ with that. I've shot both (Tavor SAR, not X95, and my Rock River AR), and I'd have to say the ergonomics of the Tavor *for me* are even better than the AR, which is not what I initially expected. The Tavor's safety is easier to manipulate, the mag release is even easier to use (and fully ambidextrous), and the balance is perfect. Swapping shoulders is easier, and it feels very light. It lifts more than a 16" AR under recoil, due to the shorter overall length, but feels stable and tracking the dot isn't a problem. Magazine changes are comparable to an AR, and the Tavor's bolt release location is far superior, IMO. The AR beats the Tavor in out-of-the-box trigger pull, though; the trigger pull on newer Tavors (both SAR and X95) isn't as heavy as the early SAR's, but it is still heavier than a typical AR. For a target gun, a Geissele trigger pack would be a good investment, but for a HD gun, the (newer) factory trigger works well.


I owned a 188-series mini-14 that exhibited horrible accuracy (greater than 5" groups at 100 yards, with match ammo). The Tavor is much better than that. Not at the same level as an AR, but not horrible; 2 MOA is probably a realistic expectation with good ammo. But a short PDW-style rifle isn't something you really put a precision optic on anyway; a red dot is a much better fit for it, IMO.


Ballistics of a 16" .223 in a package the same overall length as an AR SBR, yet non-NFA, with a CHF barrel, great ergonomics, and superb reliability. It's certainly not for everyone, and they are pricey, but for a HD carbine or fun plinker, it has a lot going for it.

The worst rifle I have owned was a Mini-14 I bought brand new in the 90's a Ranch model that I put a Nikon scope on. After a few shots the groupings would never pattern. Very inaccurate.

 

[arizona_cards_11]

I owned a Tavor for a while -- although the balance and general 'handiness' were pretty good, it's still an 8lb 223/556 that shoots 2-4MOA.

For $1700 you can hand-pick every piece of an AR build and end up with a rifle that's way more accurate, nearly as reliable, 30-40% lighter, and has an infinitely better trigger.

To me, it's a no-brainer unless you absolutely need a compact rifle. With that said, not every AR is equal and I'd rather have a Tavor than about 80% of the AR's that I've seen thrown together online.

 

[Welding Rod]

I had a Tavor for a while too. It was overall a nice gun, handy and compact. I shot it in a few high power matches just for fun and it held its own, no problem. It was on par accuracy wise with any of my LW or Gov profile barreled ARs.

Operating the controls and reloading were fast and easy enough. Field stripping and cleaning were also on par with an AR.

But, I found that I simply liked to shoot the ARs more, primarily due to their more roomy ergonomics. I am not hot on the cramped up, elbows in tight shooting style with the offhand farther rearward on the gun.

Other than that, my only complaint about the Tavor was that common optics didn't mount at an optimum height on its rail and it seemed all the riser on the market were too high. One piece AR scope mounts also were a little off elevation wise. Also, I was a little apprehensive about possible fragility of the plastic forearm guide in which the charging handle rode.

Seemed like a good gun though.

 

[stinger 327]

I had a Tavor for a while too. It was overall a nice gun, handy and compact. I shot it in a few high power matches just for fun and it held its own, no problem. It was on par accuracy wise with any of my LW or Gov profile barreled ARs.

Operating the controls and reloading were fast and easy enough. Field stripping and cleaning were also on par with an AR.

But, I found that I simply liked to shoot the ARs more, primarily due to their more roomy ergonomics. I am not hot on the cramped up, elbows in tight shooting style with the offhand farther rearward on the gun.

Other than that, my only complaint about the Tavor was that common optics didn't mount at an optimum height on its rail and it seemed all the riser on the market were too high. One piece AR scope mounts also were a little off elevation wise. Also, I was a little apprehensive about possible fragility of the plastic forearm guide in which the charging handle rode.

Seemed like a good gun though.

Did you try Aimpoint for the Tavor or even the AR?

 

[stinger 327]

I owned a Tavor for a while -- although the balance and general 'handiness' were pretty good, it's still an 8lb 223/556 that shoots 2-4MOA.

For $1700 you can hand-pick every piece of an AR build and end up with a rifle that's way more accurate, nearly as reliable, 30-40% lighter, and has an infinitely better trigger.

To me, it's a no-brainer unless you absolutely need a compact rifle. With that said, not every AR is equal and I'd rather have a Tavor than about 80% of the AR's that I've seen thrown together online.

The key thing is to get an AR ready out of the box from factory just like the Tavor and don't build the AR yourself.

 

[Welding Rod]

Did you try Aimpoint for the Tavor or even the AR?

Yep, I have T-1 and M4s models. I also tried an EOTech 512 with and without a 3/8" riser, and the one-piece scope mounts that I use on my ARs.

 

[22lr]

I'm weird, but id buy the Tavor (or X95) in this case. My main reasoning, everyone has an AR, and I like being just a little different. If money is an issue, buy a nice AR. But if the budget is not solely driving my decision, I like being a little unique.

Well, that and id love to have the X95 to go with my Galil...

 

[justice06rr]

The Tavor's mag release is in front of the mag, not on the side by your trigger finger in the AR15. How is the tavor just as fast than the AR if you have to move your hand to release the mag???

You can also add a Magpul BAD lever for easier bolt manipulations on the AR15. As much as I like Tavor's, these need to be clarified. The Tavor serves a good purpose for CQB and shorter OAL.

Read this if you don't think an M4 is not capable of long range:

1000 yards with a Colt M4A1 with a 14.5 inch barrel
https://looserounds.com/2013/08/05/what-will-the-m4-do-at-1000-yards/

The shooter is more important than the tool...

 

[briansmithwins]

The Tavor's mag release is in front of the mag, not on the side by your trigger finger in the AR15. How is the tavor just as fast than the AR if you have to move your hand to release the mag???

You can hit the Tavor's mag release with your strong hand's wrist if you have bigger hands. I have smaller hands and use my left hand to hit the release. For me it's faster as I can't reliably hit the AR's mag release without shifting my hand.

The Tavor's big mag and bolt release are much easier to hit when your hands are cold or wearing bulky gloves or mittens.

BSW

 

[stinger 327]

Yep, I have T-1 and M4s models. I also tried an EOTech 512 with and without a 3/8" riser, and the one-piece scope mounts that I use on my ARs.

So for the Tavor which sight do you like the best and why?

 

[benEzra]

The Tavor's mag release is in front of the mag, not on the side by your trigger finger in the AR15. How is the tavor just as fast than the AR if you have to move your hand to release the mag???

Like this:


You can hit the mag release with your shooting hand while reaching for the fresh mag with your off hand, which for me is faster than pressing the mag release on an AR. When the support hand comes up with the new mag, the magwell is very easy to hit if you roll the rifle a little to the right, and you hit the bolt release with the thumb as you seat the mag instead of having to slap the side of the rifle. I am at least half a second faster reloading a Tavor than an AR, though someone who is better on an AR than I am might not be.

A closer look at what's going on:



Speed reloads are fun, but reloads with retention are also straightforward. You can hit the mag release with the back of the firing hand, or with the index finger of the hand grabbing the magazine, then stow and proceed as above. And the release works equally well with either hand.

 

[Welding Rod]

So for the Tavor which sight do you like the best and why?

The T-1 is a good match as the Tavor is rather heavy and a light weight sight is appreciated.

 

[Browning]

Got amazing deal on new X 95, had to get it!

Is for my bug-out kit and hog hunting so will be perfect. These things are so rugged, reliable and easy to work on, breakdown and repalce everytrhing in the field with just a bullet! Def. worth the price.

Not sure why i was even considering another Ar 15. Sure, they be a bit more accurate longer range, but that's not this guns role. Thanks for help thinking this through!

That's what I would have done too. If self-loading mag fed rifles are banned in the near future by Pres. Clinton it would be a lot harder to get an X95 than an AR. Only drawback are parts, so you might want to stock up now on the parts most likely to break or eventually wear out.

Since AR's are so popular though you might want to add at least add one to the stable. You could just buy a lower and slowly add parts until you have a complete rifle.

I do a lot of hog hunting myself. Some shooters still poo poo the .223 Rem for hunting anything larger than a coyote. Those shooters just likely haven't kept up with ammunition development in the last 20 years or so. Check out the 70 grain Barnes TSX, it's awesome for hogs. Same thing with Hornady 75 gr. BTHP.

 

[rodspade]

The Tavor's mag release is in front of the mag, not on the side by your trigger finger in the AR15.

With the new X95 Tavor, you hit the mag release with your trigger finger.

 

[justice06rr]

BenEzra, thanks for the videos.

But its pretty clear in the vid that the guy with the Tavor is faster overall, which is an uneven comparison. You can clearly see that the guy with the AR was slower in reloading; he was even fumbling with the mag as he was inserting it.

Would be cool to see the one person do it on both rifles and compare. or have the Tavor guy compete with Jerry M.

Anyway, the time difference is minute and insignificant with proper training. Both rifles are great platforms.

 

[benEzra]

Certainly! Just pointing out that the Tavor isn't slower, and the mag release location of the Tavor SAR is no handicap relative to the X95 or AR; it's just different, and requires a different technique.

 

[briansmithwins]

Just pointing out that the Tavor isn't slower, and the mag release location of the Tavor SAR is no handicap relative to the X95 or AR; it's just different, and requires a different technique.

Exactly. Don't try to run things that aren't ARs like ARs. You'll get better results.

BSW

 

[stinger 327]

I like the Tavor. It just needs a laser red dot type of sight. Like maybe Aim Point?