TCP * P3AT * LCP.... Who Wins in My Book?

[legion3]

The above post iis, uh, misleading. I think the guy who wrote it is one of those single minded Taurus bashers. And there are many, some with good reason, no doubt.

Well that would be correct if I had actually written anything that bashed Taurus.

The Taurus TCP is made in the USA, not all Taurus handguns are, but this one is. Did you not know this, buddy, or did you want to mislead people into thinking it was a (OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!) "foreign made gun."

Well that would be correct if I had actually said anything about where a Taurus was made.

So I googled "Taurus TCP problems" and got 9660 hits.

Then I googled "Ruger LCP problems" and got 43,400 hits.

Why don't you try telling the whole story here, pal? So you googled about the Taurus TCP but not the Ruger LCP, is that it?

OR did you google both of them and just leave out the number of hits on the Ruger problems?

Utterly baffling and pointless to the thread.

But the guys who buy the LCP should not have been blind to the TCP just because Taurus makes it.

It's a much better little auto than the LCP. Much better

i just found it curious that the other guy either didn't google "Ruger LCP problems" OR he did and did not reveal the results because it hurt his already distorted and misleading claims about the TCP.

Distorted and misleading claims??? What were my claims? I simply passed on that the TCP has detractors.

 

[mick53]

Absolutely correct. However, if you want your money going to a USA company, the TCP is out.

True enough. But this non-USA company is paying people who live in the USA to make the TCP.

A lot of USA companies are exporting the jobs we used to have right out of our country.

And when you call Taurus customer service, you speak to an American too, not someone in India or the Phillipines or God knows where.

 

[orionengnr]

Wow.
My experience is about 180 out from some of the posters here.

I had two K-T P3ATs--one First Gen and one Second Gen. Neither ever made it into the category of "reliable enough to carry".

I finally got the First Gen to go through a mag...maybe...without a failure. The Second Gen...not a chance. Spent a lot of money on mags and ammo, time on the KT Range and F&B'ing and phone time with Cocoa Beach...and they sent me a lot of free parts that mostly didn't do anything. I eventually gave up on K-Ts (after these two and a P32 and a P11, which suffered similar maladies). I am soooo done with K-T.

I bought an early LCP, put about 200 rounds through it, and then the recall came out. Although I had experienced zero problems, I sent it in. It was back in a week (over Thanksgiving Holiday, no less). Put another 200 through it, no problems at all. Since then, another 100 or so. No visible wear whatsoever.

I'm not saying I would never buy a Taurus, but I would have some serious reservations....just my .02 worth.

 

[rhoggman]

Just to follow up and get the thread back on track......

My LCP was very RELIABLE, but it showed signs of excessive wear.

Not saying the guy who had 1,000 rounds down the pipe, and showed no signs of wear was lying, but holy crap... if that is true then Ruger has some serious metallurgy issues. Mine had a groove below the ejection port where the empty cases were chipping away the frame, and under the feed ramp was getting chewed up as well.

I inspected the TCP I own tonight. I did notice that the black coloring on the frame is wearing in the same places, but no metal has been chipped. In a previous post I noted that the TCP delivers the next round higher the LCP does minimizing the wear below the feedramp, and I stand by that statement, but I will admit I do notice that there is a slight DISCOLORATION in that area, so obviously there is some abrasion happening there.

Keep in mind I am the 3rd owner, and I only have 100 rounds down the pipe. I do not know the previous round count, but I suspect it is minimal due to the state of the pistol when I purchased it. So far it seems to me that the TCP is of superior quality because the metal frame is not chipping.

I plan on continuing to shoot this little bugger to find out more. I did not expect this thread to get so heated

I would like to note I have found something I do not like about the TCP.... The slide is kind of cut at an angle in the front, and the barrel is slightly longer than the LCP & P3AT. This causes the barrel to stick out from the end of the slide. Not cool on a gun that you are going to throw in a pocket because the barrel turns into a shovel for dust and debri. This also opens up the chance to damage the crown, and scar the end of the barrel.

Also I am noticing some extremely minute rust spots on the barrel. It could be that one of the previous owners did not clean and oil it. I don't think this sets it apart from any of the others. I got my LCP wet, and sweaty a few times and some surface rust appeared. I caught it quickly though and it wiped right off.

 

[legion3]

Not saying the guy who had 1,000 rounds down the pipe, and showed no signs of wear was lying, but holy crap... if that is true then Ruger has some serious metallurgy issues

Well I was not lying when I posted this;

June 11, 2008, 02:42 PM #56
legion3
Member
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Posts: 585 50 more rounds down range today, Rem golden saber got the test today.
This now puts my count at over 600 flawless rounds downrange and the following ammo tested;
Fiocchi FMJ
Fiocchi JHP
Winchester WB
Winchester SXT
Speer Gold dots
Corbon DPX
PMC Bronze
Remington golden Saber
Santa Barbara JSP - this packs quite a wallop!!!

or this;

June 27, 2008, 08:34 PM #2
legion3
Member
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Posts: 585 700 rounds down range no issues very pleased.

or this

August 10, 2008, 06:02 AM #9
legion3
Member
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Posts: 585 I got mine at the Lakeland show a while back, private sale, for $280 OTD with an extra mag. The gun has been flawless for over 800 rounds.
Fired and functioned with all sorts of different types of ammo, Speer GD, Winchester SXT, Corbon PP and DPX, Fiocchi FMJ and HP, PMC, WWB and Rem GS and others.
After reading tests, and "unoffical tests"
I went with Remington Golden sabers, the heaviest bullet, functions well and has decent penetration and expansion.
My second choice would be Corbon PP rounds (not DPX).

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=29742

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1209241627

I had no reason to lie then and if you are trusting that's 800 rounds by August 2008 - back when .380 was plentiful and $ not so dear.

I could go and find a post with the 1K mark but it would only say the same thing. A couple of the 100 round boxes of WWB and off I went.

I will admit I don't shoot the LCP much now but I have no appreciable wear beyond what anygun should have at 1000 rounds. And certainly no chipping.

 

[legion3]

And to show I hold no ill will or feelings toward Taurus or any of its products, I would expect the TCP to wear about the same as my LCP did at 1K rounds.

If the TCP had been out when I was in the market for this type of .380 I would have given it a look but I don't need multiple pocket pistols.

The KT had been out for years but I was not in the market then and preferred the Ruger when I compared them.

 

[MachIVshooter]

True enough. But this non-USA company is paying people who live in the USA to make the TCP.

And to me, that is actually more important. I'd rather have a USA made product sold by foreign-owned company than an imported product with a USA-based company.

However, if I can buy one that is both USA made and sold by a USA-based company, I will. In the case of these micro-pistols, we have multiple choices that are just this. The fact that all KT employees are NRA members and the company has about the best CS in the industry makes the choice even easier, IMO. I have 5 KT's, no complaints with any of them. YMMV.

A lot of USA companies are exporting the jobs we used to have right out of our country.

Disgusting, isn't it? Been going on for decades. People were too busy price-shopping to consider the long-term ramifications of large scale outsourcing of our manufacturing industry. It sure is evident now, though. And too late to fix.

 

[kokapelli]

And to me, that is actually more important. I'd rather have a USA made product sold by foreign-owned company than an imported product with a USA-based company.

However, if I can buy one that is both USA made and sold by a USA-based company, I will. In the case of these micro-pistols, we have multiple choices that are just this. The fact that all KT employees are NRA members and the company has about the best CS in the industry makes the choice even easier, IMO. I have 5 KT's, no complaints with any of them. YMMV.




Disgusting, isn't it? Been going on for decades. People were too busy price-shopping to consider the long-term ramifications of large scale outsourcing of our manufacturing industry. It sure is evident now, though. And too late to fix.

You can also buy a Kahr P380 which is made by Americans at an American co and I expect most if not all of Kahr's employees are NRA members as well.

Don't forget that it took foreign competition to get the American car companies to stop screwing us with the crap they were building in the 70s and 80s.

Competition is good for the consumer even when it's foreign.

 

[benzy2]

I would like to hear from someone who knows they have 500+ rounds through their LCP, and can tell me that it is wearing at the same rate as they would expect from any pistol.....

While not quite to 500 I have put right at 400 rounds through mine. Here is what mine looks like currently. A little wear in the finish where metal moves on metal, but its wear all firearms I have owned have shown.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Don't forget that it took foreign competition to get the American car companies to stop screwing us with the crap they were building in the 70s and 80s.

You're talking to a guy who owns several of those "70's and 80's crap vehicles". In point of fact, my primary driver is a '78 Dodge Aspen. How many imports of that vintage do you see on the road today?

 

[CZguy]

You're talking to a guy who owns several of those "70's and 80's crap vehicles". In point of fact, my primary driver is a '78 Dodge Aspen. How many imports of that vintage do you see on the road today?

Oh, I guess that I see around three times more vintage imports than 78 Dodge Aspens.

It does make me wonder what happened to all the Vega's, and Pinto's. I see about the same number of them that I see of Hugo's.

Completion really is good for the consumer.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Oh, I guess that I see around three times more vintage imports than 78 Dodge Aspens.

So you see only 3 times as many total 70's imports as you do of one, low production domestic model? That would be proving my point in the extreme.

It does make me wonder what happened to all the Vega's, and Pinto's. I see about the same number of them that I see of Hugo's.

Yugo, dude, Yugo. And, umm, yeah..........they were the epitome of junk import.

Completion really is good for the consumer.

I agree. Who wants to buy an unfinished product?


Anyway, not to derail this thread

I expect most if not all of Kahr's employees are NRA members as well.

I'd like to see a source on that.

Here's mine:

http://kel-tec-cnc.com/aboutus.htm

Second to last sentence of the last paragraph.

 

[kokapelli]

I'd like to see a source on that.

Here's mine:

http://kel-tec-cnc.com/aboutus.htm

Second to last sentence of the last paragraph.

I don't need a source because I'm not bothered about how other people live there lives as long as it doesn't hurt or effect me and my family.

It might be of interest that Justin Moon who was interviewed at the last NRA annual meeting said "One thing about NRA members—they give feedback. And we listen. That's how we are able to make the products that make them happy, that's how we stay in business."

Oh and you might also be interested to know that in addition to Kahr owning Auto Ordinance, the maker of Thompson, Kahr purchased Magnum Research if I remember correctly on June 10 of this year.

Kahr is an American co and has proven itself to be a real asset to the American gun culture.

In an interview with Massad Ayoob Justin Moon said "I proudly participate and support my church and my community. This is, after all, a free country. I cherish my First Amendment rights as well as my Second Amendment rights."

This is what this country is all about, isn't it?

 

[Fastcast]

Owning an LCP, I'd have to say Ruger......It seems to me not much has changed at Taurus.

My brother purchased the Taurus 709 Slim last year and quite frankly (sorry Slim owners) the 709 Slim is a flimsy, cheap, unreliable POS!

Every time we go shooting it's something new with that POS.

FTE
Light primer strikes
Premature slide lock
Now yesterday the Slim just decides to disassemble itself after the last shot in the mag.

That gun is an udder failure and dangerous piece of garbage that should be at the bottom of the sea. I've been telling him to send it back but hell there's been so many different malfunctions, where would they even begin to fix such a piss poor example of pistol.

I thought maybe things were changing at Taurus but apparently not. Most every Taurus (semi auto) I've had the displeasure to shoot, has been a sub standard example of what a quality pistol is and it looks like their reputation is still intact.

I wouldn't touch a Taurus with a 10 foot poll.

 

[kokapelli]

Oh come on, tell us what you really think!

 

[CZguy]

I wouldn't touch a Taurus with a 10 foot poll

You can't hold all that emotion in like that, you'll get it all bottled up inside.......you have to express yourself.

Also I wouldn't touch anything with a 10 foot poll, but I just might with a 10 foot pole.

Don't take that the wrong way, I'm a product of public education myself.

 

[Fastcast]

Also I wouldn't touch anything with a 10 foot poll, but I just might with a 10 foot pole.

Don't take that the wrong way, I'm a product of public education myself.

LOL ...... I do know better than that!.....Dohhhhh.

Anyway, from my experiences with Taurus, I won't be spending any of my money with those fine folks!

 

[MachIVshooter]

Kahr is an American co and has proven itself to be a real asset to the American gun culture.

Didn't say they weren't.

I have no problems with Kahr whatsoever, and I've recommended them to a lot of our customers.

My point is that it was a mere assumption that Kahr's employees are all (or mostly all) NRA members. It's a fact that KT's are.

That said, it doesn't seem the OP is in the market for a $500+ gun anyway. That leaves the guns originally mentioned, plus a couple others, like the Diamond back.

 

[kokapelli]

My point is that it was a mere assumption that Kahr's employees are all (or mostly all) NRA members. It's a fact that KT's are.

It sounded like a
criticism of Kahr and that you were Implying that the employees at Kahr do not support the NRA otherwise why did you feel you had to point it out or maybe I did not understand what you meant.

 

[MachIVshooter]

It sounded like a
criticism of Kahr and that you were Implying that the employees at Kahr do not support the NRA otherwise why did you feel you had to point it out or maybe I did not understand what you meant.

Bingo.

There was no criticism of Kahr (or any other maker) on the premise of their not mandating NRA membership as a condition of employment. I didn't even mention other makers; It was you who singled out Kahr arms.

I brought it up as, IMO, it earns bonus brownie points for Kel-Tec, being strong supporters of the amendment that ensures their being able to continue marketing their product, as well as being a USA-based, USA manufacturing company. These are qualities that myself and many others hold in high regard.

And yes, there are, in fact, gun makers (Fudd owned, it seems) who stand in stark contrast to that **cough**Cooper**cough**

Unfortunately, politics is heavily intertwined in all aspects of business, and no where is this more true than with firearm manufacturers.

 

[harmon rabb]

My brother purchased the Taurus 709 Slim last year and quite frankly (sorry Slim owners) the 709 Slim is a flimsy, cheap, unreliable POS!

Every time we go shooting it's something new with that POS.

FTE
Light primer strikes
Premature slide lock
Now yesterday the Slim just decides to disassemble itself after the last shot in the mag.

That gun is an udder failure and dangerous piece of garbage that should be at the bottom of the sea. I've been telling him to send it back but hell there's been so many different malfunctions, where would they even begin to fix such a piss poor example of pistol.

I thought maybe things were changing at Taurus but apparently not. Most every Taurus (semi auto) I've had the displeasure to shoot, has been a sub standard example of what a quality pistol is and it looks like their reputation is still intact.

I wouldn't touch a Taurus with a 10 foot poll.

my 709 has been 100% flawless since day 1. your bro got a lemon.

 

[pockets]

That gun is an udder failure

Absolutely!
The Taurus 709 does not make a very good udder.
Most cows would utterly agree on that.
.

 

[Fastcast]

my 709 has been 100% flawless since day 1. your bro got a lemon.

He sure did!.....Is that little black plastic insert at the back of your frame (that notches up into the slide) all chewed up?

Absolutely!
The Taurus 709 does not make a very good udder.
Most cows would utterly agree on that.
.

LOL ..... I see these mistakes all the time and never say but boy you guys hammered me this time!

 

[kokapelli]

Bingo.

There was no criticism of Kahr (or any other maker) on the premise of their not mandating NRA membership as a condition of employment. I didn't even mention other makers; It was you who singled out Kahr arms.

I brought it up as, IMO, it earns bonus brownie points for Kel-Tec, being strong supporters of the amendment that ensures their being able to continue marketing their product, as well as being a USA-based, USA manufacturing company. These are qualities that myself and many others hold in high regard.

And yes, there are, in fact, gun makers (Fudd owned, it seems) who stand in stark contrast to that **cough**Cooper**cough**

Unfortunately, politics is heavily intertwined in all aspects of business, and no where is this more true than with firearm manufacturers.

Ok that's your point of view but not mine. I'm not buying a pistol based on who the companies' employees contribute to.

If the company makes a good pistol I'll purchase, but if their product is a POS I don't care who the employees support, I'm not purchasing their product.

 

[rhoggman]

Thanks to the individual above for posting photos. Would be nice to see the area below the feedramp, and the inside of the frame below the ejection port. Other than that your firearm looks great.

.380 is plentiful in my area now. No reason not to shoot em up except for time and money. Picked up some PDX1 for the TCP. Will be the first hollow point rounds I'll throw down the tube.

I have since put another 100 or so rounds down the pipe. The minute rust spots I was seeing on the barrel have dissipated. They were likely due to the previous owner not cleaning. With these small guns I am kind of meticulous with cleaning. Especially after shooting PMC. PMC .380 has got to be one of the dirtiest rounds I have ever used.... but it is cheap and widely available so I shoot it.

So far I am still sticking to all my claims with the TCP...

Funny enough I have read some of this thread and have a few things to add.... I can never blame some one for wanting to buy American, but I am not an avid doogooder in that area so I'll shut my mouth.

Only other Taurus I have owned is a 85SS UltraLight which I have always been pleased with, and it has a better stock trigger than my S&W M 60-15. The TCP impresses by so I bought a 709 SLIM. I will submit that a lot of people complain about reliability, and that does not make me feel good, but the one I have has been 100% reliable. All 3 of the small guns are believe it or not my most often carried guns.

I Own many firearms, and I can't say I like these Tauri the most by any means.... but they are the ones I end up toting around for the most part.

I must be one of the lucky ones...... I will say that most of there semi-autos don't really appeal to me at all. I was looking for a smaller semi-auto in 9mm for CC, so the 709 Slim fit the bill. I have handled the PF9 & PF11, and the triggers are god awful.

The Kahr guns have nice triggers, but they are a little too short and stubby to be very comfortable for me.

Once again these Tuarus guns have done me well. I'm no big cheerleader, but I think they will sell a lot of these guns. Good product for what I paid anyways. I buy almost all my guns used as well, so all of these were used when I bought them..... pretty amazing they were not lemons unloaded on me.