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Teacher ND in high school gun safety class

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by SSN Vet, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    This article details the events...

    Interesting points...
    > The teacher was a reserve police officer (so apparently all LEOs are not gun experts)
    > Sounds like typical semi-auto AD... dropped the mag but didn't clear the chamber... then pulled the trigger. That violates 2 of Col. Cooper's 4 rules in my book. But obviously, he was the only one in the room professional enough to handle a hand gun.

    In all honesty, I have serious misgivings about having teachers pack heat in schools. This guy was trained and was an LEO, and he still managed to F it up.

    What about little miss teacher who has her snubby taken from her purse?

    Uniformed SROs is a much better option, but even in FL, we see how much good that did.

    Our country needs to seriously reassess the way we handle mental illness and monitor individuals on psychiatric drugs. I read an article which leaked the testimony of the CT state police chief in which their research showed that nearly all school shooters have been on psychiatric drugs and that Satan worship has also been prevalent. Yet we continue to allow the head shrinkers to be the "experts" who tell us what to do (and cover their own arses).
     
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  2. GarySTL

    GarySTL Member

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    It wasn't that famous ATF guy who was "the only one professional enough" to handle the Glock forty was it? At least he managed to shoot himself in the foot.

    Depending on locale, many LEOs are not gun guys or gals. They only shoot enough to qualify.
     
  3. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    Exactly my point.... and just what percentage of teachers are going to be competent gun guys or gals?

    If the pro 2A crowd endorses this policy, we're going to own it .... and likely have egg on our faces. IMHO, it is not a good idea for gun rights advocates to get behind the policy of arming teachers.
     
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  4. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    Unfortunately very few LEOs qualify as "highly trained". As Gary pointed out, most only shoot enough to qualify and then don't shoot until the next qualification. I would much rather be around a gun guy who was handling guns than a random cop.

    Correlation does not equal causation. Maybe they were prescribed psychiatric drugs because somebody saw that they were having problems and was trying to help them. There is no evidentiary basis to say that any of these events were CAUSED by the drugs prescribed to the actor. Usually when bad things start happening, it's because the person has decided to stop taking the prescribed drugs against the physician's advice, and without the physician's assistance.

    Many MANY people are prescribed those drugs and don't go on to shoot up schools. Should we deny them an effective means of treatment because a few people who were evil enough to commit violent actions also happened to be on drugs?
    That sounds an awful like banning ARs because a few people used those same types of guns to commit murder.



    I don't think anyone is saying that every teacher should be forced to carry a gun. If we make it legal for teachers to carry, what will likely happen is most of the people carrying WILL be gun guys and will know how to handle weapons.
     
  5. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    I fear at some point we're going to have to confront the fact that if we don't arm some people inside the school, then a classroom will find itself confronted with a shooter and the question will be does the adult in class possess a gun to stop him, or only a #2 pencil?
    Human beings are not perfect. People have accidents in cars but we still drive them and maintain the roadways. Police officers have NDs but we don't disarm entire departments as a result.
    The incident in the OP's post was a training failure. It represents a failure I have heard of over and over; failure to check the breech of a semiauto handgun after removing the magazine, and assuming the gun was thus unloaded. This SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.
    I'm not exactly ..."at ease" with the idea of allowing teachers to ccw, but the fact is, it is already being done some places in this country.
    What risk are we more ready to accept? A ND, or an unopposed school shooter?
    America ... man up and choose!
     
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  6. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    What a complete and total blinkered moron.

    1) Impromptu firearms safety demonstrations are never a good idea. Safety comes from proper planning, preparation and adherence to rules. Pulling out ones gun to show people how it works is how accidents happen.

    2) Teacher, city councilman and cop? Does that town have a population of 20 or something?

    3) No live ammunition allowed in the classroom during the instruction portion of a firearms training or safety class. BECAUSE THIS! You are not the only one professional enough to break the rules. The rules are for everyone.

    4) Always have at least one other instructor or student verify the firearm is unloaded every time it is handled. BECAUSE THIS!

    Fire this idiot from all three of his jobs.
     
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  7. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    In other news, countless stupid teachers were injured doing other stupid things that could kill a student and no one gave them national news attention.

    Stupid happens. That's still not an argument to disarm everyone
     
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  8. stonebuster

    stonebuster Member

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    If teachers are going to be armed to protect schools they're going to need a lot more training than a one day class and a pistol permit. Specialized training is going to be needed. I doubt many teachers would be willing to go through the training necessary and the responsibility/liability that goes with it. In a school with 1000-2000 kids you're going to need several qualified people spread out throughout the school. The more I think about arming teachers the less I think it will work.
     
  9. drband

    drband Member

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    The only way it might work is for teacher/volunteers with proper training. You will never get a conscripted carrier who is careful enough to have a loaded weapon in a school setting.

    Volunteers should have to qualify at least 2x per year or even quarterly. Random safety checks. Etc...

    There are a lot of barriers to success but I think arming a few qualified teachers would be good.
     
  10. tluxtele

    tluxtele Member

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    I hear this line of thinking every now and then and I don't understand it. I would love to be able to shoot half as well as Hickok45 and he was a public school teacher. I would assume he'd be pretty competent with a gun. And he's not the only teacher around the country that is into firearms. I find it interesting that we trust teachers with our kids to teach them during these formative years, but we question if they are able to learn the basics of firearms safety and protect themselves... or those around them. Are some of them idiots? Yes. That's the case with the general population. But many are very competent. My wife was a first grade teacher before we had our kids. I'd absolutely trust her to carry. But I wouldn't want to teacher across the hall from her carrying. I also wouldn't want her teaching my kids.

    Personally, I want us to just remove the gun free zoning. I think this idea of picking a few teachers is not the route to go... not because I don't trust them. If they're not interested in carrying in everyday life, I don't want them to grab a gun because they're off to school. But if they bear arms regularly, let them continue to exercise that right when they go to work.

    I work on a college campus and every day I go to work I have to lock up my firearm and step onto a campus with no protection. If I can protect myself a block away from campus, I don't turn into an idiot once I step foot onto campus. I'm the same person with the same abilities regardless of the ground I'm standing on. Let's just allow people to keep their rights.
     
  11. boom boom

    boom boom Member

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    Folks, there is no PERFECT policy. The Israelis made armed teachers work and we are no less competent than them.

    It is just a question of what tradeoffs that one is willing to accept and Murphy's law will guarantee that some things will go wrong. Everyone agrees that school shootings are a problem just like hi-jacking airplanes was in the 1970's and 1980's and then 9/11. We disagree about solutions. A layered solution that decreases the likelihood of the event that you are trying to prevent helps--e.g. sealed cockpit doors, arming some flight crew, increase in screening protocols, presence of federal air marshals increased, no fly lists, and so forth. Will each step have drawbacks--certainly. A pilot had a ND in a plane recently--no one was hurt. Does a failure mean that no pilots should have guns? Tests on screening indicate that people could be getting through with weapons--does that mean we end screening? No fly lists have errors--does that mean we end using those. Through the magic of statistics, each additional step toward addressing the problem through joint probabilities (despite errors-even fairly large ones) reduces (not eliminates) the risk of the bad event.

    My personal policy recommendation is this--allow local districts and their voters the flexibility to make school safety decisions on a local basis. Create alternatives for students who are not there to learn--distance education is one such. Remove mandatory federal and state laws that impose one size fits all such as gun-free zones. If a local district wants to arm teachers as a solution, let them do so as does the states of Texas or Ohio. Do not mandate it nor dictate that all teachers must carry etc. Use state DOE's and the Federal DOE to provide resources including studies of what works and what doesn't work for school boards and parents. Have in-person inspections of schools somewhat like military inspections with a state or local Inspector Generals to check school safety in general.

    We are so used to the Feds or States swooping down to "fix" things that we are forgetting the basics of self-governance. It begins at home and our community for a lot of issues. Fix those before you try to fix the country and the world.

    The failures in Florida come primarily from the school system, the local mental health establishment, and local law enforcement. The state can't fix that but local voters can remove the school board, kill their bad policies, fire the superintendent, fire the sheriff, and so forth.

    The individual apparently committed all sorts of crimes inside school and outside in the community and repeatedly threatened to do more. His own adopted mother was apparently scared of him. He should have been arrested, charged, and reported to NICS as ineligible to own a firearm. Arresting him would have also required him to be diagnosed at the jail as I suspect mentally ill. Local government failure now means that every potential firearm owner in the state has to be collectively punished via new state legislation that will not solve the failure of local government. Only the voters in that location can fix the problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  12. Infidel

    Infidel Member

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    Exactly! This self-selection is the right mechanism, but it doesn't sit well with controller types.
     
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  13. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    In Texas, and in the provisions of the new Florida law, any school staff member who volunteers to be armed undergoes the same training required by the state for law enforcement officers. The Florida law only applies to staff members who are not primarily classroom teachers; classroom teachers will not be permitted to be a part of the "armed resistance."

    So, enough with the chicken-little crying about "little miss teacher" who "gets her snubby taken" and who only had "a one day class and a pistol permit." Those are not what the better model programs are involving.

    Police officers are human. We castigate those who put LEOs up on some sort of higher level, depending on them to protect the masses, then complain about the cops when it turns out they're not. Each individual officer (or civilian) deserves the criticism coming to them when they screw up like this one did. No one should be applying their judgement of those individuals to the entire profession, be it teaching, law enforcement, or whatever.

    No one has the perfect solution to school safety from armed attack, but the "school marshal" program (as it's called in Texas) seems to be a damn good start.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
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  14. Klint Beastwood

    Klint Beastwood member

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    I agree. Shame and humiliation is always been the way to be checked.
    How it is around the infantry and in the teams. I rather proably do 4 months in county then get heckled and hazed by my peers.
    Per the incident, perhaps the take away is don’t be a show and the five safety rules.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  15. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    Underscores the Four Rules.

    Mind altering prescription drugs are a common denominator of school shootings. Attempting to compare this with a common denominator of guns does not apply as the drugs are mind altering, guns are not. A cursory look at the published side effects of these drugs often include some really bad stuff.

    I do not see a need for extra training for teachers to carry firearms. Rather establishing SOPs in schools to minimize casualties incorporating armed teachers, uniformed security teams etc.

    A shooting in a school is not that different from a shooting in a crowded shopping mall, movie theatre complex, supermarket etc. I do not see many calling for extra training for people that can legally carry in those environments. And the track record of average folk carrying in those places and others is quite good.
     
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  16. telomerase

    telomerase Member

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    In New Hampshire, most of the population can handle guns safely. This incident was caused by a "trained" LEO, so restricting functional adults from carrying doesn't seem to be the solution... maybe just building a society with fewer (and more selected for IQ) police is the answer. Maybe start by dropping the "victimless" crime laws... then we would not only have fewer police, but no drug gangs for them to deal with.
     
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  17. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Another teacher decided it was a good idea to feed a lie puppy to a snapping turtle in class. They are far from being perfect when it comes to making good decisions.
     
  18. DPris

    DPris Member

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    I see no projected plan REQUIRING ALL TEACHERS to be armed.
    That would be ridiculous.
    Allowing those who felt motivated & who passed at least some sort of training class would be the eventual out come of armed teacher programs.

    There will always be accidents.
    Bill Jordan had one, it killed a co-worker.
    It can happen to anybody.
    Denis
     
  19. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    How is an average teacher any less competent than the average person who carries with a permit? I don't think anyone is advocating for mandatory weapon carry by teachers but those who volunteer and demonstrate competence with a firearm should be allowed to do so. When you concealed carry in the mall, the park, on the street or Walmart, you are around teenagers, pre-teens and toddlers, old and young, so should we adopt the attitude that because there are children around we shouldn't be allowed to carry. What would have happened if that male teacher that shielded kids with his body and was killed had been carrying? Maybe a dead or wounded gunman stopped before he could kill any more people. Teachers could be paid for the training time and supplemental pay for being armed. I've know some teachers that were quite competent with a firearm and some that shouldn't be allowed near a weapon, just like non-teachers who carry.
     
  20. TomJ
    • Contributing Member

    TomJ Member

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    The suggestion to arm teachers seems to have been misconstrued by a lot of people. My ex is a substitute teacher and she was a little upset as she was under the impression that she'd be forced to carry a gun if this becomes policy. Apparently the rumor mill at her school was in full swing after President Trump's roundtable meeting when this was discussed. She is not a gun person, does not want to carry a gun and should not do so as she's not qualified. I explained to her that President Trump did not suggest that all teachers carry, only those who are qualified to do so and want to. I watched that meeting and he stressed that numerous times, but the left entered into their dishonesty and hysterics and took it out of context. This is a prime example of what we're up against. A common sense suggestion, that a person who's qualified to do so carry a concealed handgun to offer our kids the same protection we provide so many other people gets twisted into something that was never said.
     
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  21. somethingbenign

    somethingbenign Member

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    Is that what is going on? I was wondering why my sister damn near disowned me over the phone for suggesting support for teachers being able to carry at work per that districts discretion. I didn't get past "teachers carrying" before she was going up and down with "there'd be no teachers left, they'd all quit." If this is truly the misinformation out there then that explains her reaction more. I expected more from the general population but I'm old enough I should know better.
     
  22. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    Here is a sure-fire way to secure our school , as well as other public places , from would-be murderers:

    1) Send a qualified delegation to Israel , learn from our allies there. The Israelis are realists ; they are not in denial regarding their security threats.

    2) Do what they do.
     
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  23. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    This attitude probably varies greatly according to demographics and geographical location. I suspect the more left-leaning, and more metropolitan the place, the greater the aversion and phobia.
     
  24. TomJ
    • Contributing Member

    TomJ Member

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    This ^ , and remember that it's a common tactic to either lie or ignore the issue and resort to personal attacks when they can't win an argument on it's merits. The best we can do is continue to calmly explain the truth.
     
  25. somethingbenign

    somethingbenign Member

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    Funny thing is I currently live in a much more urban environment than she ever has. She isn't really left leaning either. She just doesn't have experience with firearms so she doesn't trust them.
     
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