Teen Jailed for Burning Flag

[beerslurpy]

The right of property is so simple even a child should be capable of understanding it. In fact, most do, as they will throw a fit if you try to take their candies or their toys.

What is so difficult to comprehend about a flag being a physical thing that must be made (since it does not occur naturally) and is then owned by whoever made it, or whoever they freely sold it to? And if you do not own something, what right have you to determine its disposition?

How much education did you have to receive before you lost the ability to reason at the level of a child?

 

[Marshall]

Have you ever heard of the phrase "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the deatht that you have the right to say it"?

Gee, no, never heard of that.

Why not say it then, why burn a flag instead? Seems like an act of an imbecile to me. Oh yea, deaf, dumb and blind I guess? If people have to stoop to such a low form of "expression" by defacing and degrading the symbol of which this country operates under, one that brave men die to protect, you deserve, at the least, an ass kicking anyway. Hundreds of thousands of men and women have died to protect the freedom of which the flag symbolizes and burning it, to me, is nothing toward free speech. Why not embrace the flag and say, thanks to all that have have fought and died for my freedom, which this flag symbolizes, I have the right to civilly speak my mind and express myself under the first amendment?

I think flag burning is about as anti-American as you can get. If you can't find another way, a civil way, to express yourself today in the United States of America, you're too damn stupid and ignorant to be heard! I believe that an American citizen whom performs the act of flag burning while hiding behind the first amendment, puts the one burning it on a level lower than the uncivilized idiots you see on TV in the middle east setting themselves on fire while burning the American flag. They might as well attemt pouring gasoline on a US veteran and light him on fire, it take about the same level of intelligence and most veterans would rather you attempt that anyway so they can kick your ass. IMO, they should be penalized for it in some way or form.

 

[Flyboy]

I was very proud to vote for this amendment that will enable Congress to prosecute individuals that desecrate the very symbol of the country that gives them the freedom to make such statements.
--US Rep. Tom Cole, R-OK (4th District)
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/ok04_cole/americanflag.html

Somewhere along the line, his train of logic derailed, killing all aboard.

 

[Art Eatman]

More thought, less emotion, please. And watch the language; Grammaw's up from her nap.

Art

 

[Reno]

You anti-burning folk, you need to remember that a flag is a piece of cloth. It's a symbol. The freedoms it represents are infinitely more important than the cloth itself. It's too bad you people are more concerned with beating your chests threatening to beat people up on the internet for destroying a symbol instead of actually fighting for the freedoms themselves.

Brave men have not died for a fancy piece of cloth, they have fought and died for liberty.

 

[Marshall]

Reno, gee whiz, did you not understand what you read in my post?

I called it a symbol on more than one occasion, I pointed it out with a high degree of emphasis.

I didn't threaten to beat up anyone, where you got that from, I have no idea?

Reno, answer this for me........."Why not embrace the flag and say, thanks to all that have have fought and died for my freedom, which this flag symbolizes, I have the right to civilly speak my mind and express myself under the first amendment?"

After all, it's just a piece of cloth, what do you think you will accomplish by burning just a piece of cloth? Now, I'm sure you'll say well, it's because of what the cloth symbolizes, which brings me back to the question I asked you to answer.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I understand the emotions that burning a flag can stimulate. It offends me, too.

But I agree largely with what "peacefuljeffrey" wrote.

I also sometimes get upset when I hear folks making stupid statements about how we should resolve some of our country's political and social problems.

We are emotional creatures. Its easy for us to get upset.

The flag, as several have noted, is a symbol. The flag is not the things you think it represents. Burning the flag, however ugly it seems, is just a symbolic act. But for some reason that act makes many of us very emotional. Our imaginations run wild, and many of us lose control. That's often what "serious" flag burners want. (I'm not talking about immature drunks like the one who prompted this discussion.)

Keep in mind that the person who burns a flag as a political statement ALSO considers it a very powerful symbol -- else why else would he (or she) burn it?

Let them burn it. If the flag is their property let them do it. Turn your back on them and walk away. Don't give them an audience. That's what they want.

If its not their flag, remind the owner of the flag that his or her property was stolen and damaged, and prompt them to prosecute.

As was previoulsy noted, serious flag burners are often trying to make a point. Most of them, by burning the flag, are saying something is wrong with America. They might be right, or they might be wrong -- but if we beat them or attack them, we prove them at least partly right.

 

[R.H. Lee]

prosecutors said Andrew Elisha Staley (search) has yet to argue that he was exercising free speech rights.

"Bottom line is, the kid got drunk," said Lisa Lee, his mother.

There ya go. It's not a '1st Amendment' issue at all. It's just an act of vandalism or disturbing the peace.

The teenager was released from jail Thursday on his own recognizance while he awaits his Aug. 2 trial on charges of desecrating a venerated object, underage drinking, littering, evading arrest, burning personal property and theft.

No point in getting upset over someone who has no idea why they burned an American flag (which would be most flag burners IMO). Maybe some of 'em could repeat some leftist drivel they'd heard somewhere, but very few, if any, have any idea of the history of this country. Most would not be able to tell you approximate dates of significant events, nor would they recognize names of prominent Americans down through history. They wouldn't know James Madison from Theodore Roosevelt from Dwight Eisenhower.

 

[Jammer Six]

If someone burns their flag, that's between them and their flag. (When someone burns someone else's flag, there's going to be a problem, but it's a small problem.)

It's when a third party tries to stop someone from burning their flag that that third party is going to have a problem with me.

The flag symbolizes, in part, the very right to set it on fire.

It's why many veterans chose to serve.

That said, you want to be careful when you start mucking about with someone else's symbol, regardless of who owns the piece of pretty cloth in question. They might not be as stable as your own bad ass, or they might not be as bright, or they simply might not realize that you're within your rights to burn your flag.

You probably want to have a line of retreat that can't be blocked, because there's rarely a sure-fire way of telling just by looking at someone whether or not they're nearing the end of their rope, and something that carries the emotional weight of flag burning could be just the thing that sends them over the edge, and I hate being down range when that happens.

And finally, if we ever reach a point low enough that I feel the appropriate act is to set our nation's colors on fire, you would be well advised to just stand aside, and let me proceed.

By that late date, I wouldn't be alone, I'd be surrounded by patriots, and it turns out that I can shoot through tears.

 

[Biker]

Well Jammer "Every time an immigrant crosses the border we get stronger" Six, it appears that you and I would have a serious disagreement.
Biker

 

[Art Eatman]

I'm against the idea of a Constitutional Amendment against flag burning. It just strikes me as some sort of slippery-slope deal. What's next?

Personally, I regard the burning of our flag as a provocation, no different from having some harsh, obscene pejorative spoken at me. Lotsa court precedents about one's behavior when provoked...

I doubt I'd go so far as a side kick to the knee, but I just might slap somebody up 'side the head a time or two. Some things just make me sorta cranky.

Art

 

[confed sailor]

well excuse the hell out of me, i suppose that im just a worthless piece of garbage when i express my opinion.

and everything you say is just damn peachy.

both of you rev and jeffery need to calm down, it was humorous hyperbole, and your overwhelming self rightiousness is just as sickening.

flag burning as a political statement is wrong in my eyes, and i fully intend to express my first amendment rights in a legal form of counterprotest.

furthermore, i am a petty officer in the USN i have disposed of flags before, or are you just so quick to assume im another dumb ?????-kicker out of SC furthermore i follow the flag code, punishment or not to the letter thank you very much.

im damn proud of that flag and what it symbolizes, but if you think that im simply going to violate anothers rights, or even worse the UCMJ, you are sorely mistaken.

to say im insulted by your remarks doesnt even begin to approach how i feel. they show a lack of respect for others characteristic of self-righteous A$$-holes.

if you want to attack me i request that you do it in pm form, and show the couth that the HIGHROAD forum is about.

 

[c_yeager]

When the state pays for and supplies me with a flag THEN and ONLY THEN will they get to make any kind of decision regarding its treatment. The American flag as a SYMBOL belongs to everyone, the piece of cloth bearing the stars and stripes is an OBJECT that belongs to the purchaser, period.

THe very IDEA that the government can pass a law regarding what you do with your own property goes against everything that the flag symbolizes in the first place.

 

[308win]

If the principle under which holding gun manufacturers liable for the use of their product is valid then Anheuser Bush should be on trial as well.

 

[Javelin Man]

About 15 years ago when flag burning first became an issue, a person went to the courthouse steps in Findlay, Ohio and burned a flag. A police officer stood quietly by as it happened, then pulled out his book and started writing the man a ticket. The man replied indignately that it was his "right" to burn a flag! The police officer reponded that he was, indeed, correct; the ticket was for open burning inside the city limits!

The short story aside, I agree with many of the posters. The flag represent the right and freedom to do exactly what we detest; the desecration of the flag. If we pass an amendment forbiding it, we'll have to go out and take all the flag t-shirts off the beer-bellied Nascar guys and the tank tops with flags on them off the lovely ladies. (I'm starting to like this idea!)

Let the boy be jailed on the theft and other charges. Or at least have him attend an American Legion proper flag burning ceremony.

 

[Asian Guy]

Since the flag is supposed to represent the freedoms of the Bill of Rights, laws banning flag-burning to preserve "respect for the flag" would be hypocritical.

Cheers!

 

[RevDisk]

well excuse the hell out of me, i suppose that im just a worthless piece of garbage when i express my opinion.

and everything you say is just damn peachy.

both of you rev and jeffery need to calm down, it was humorous hyperbole, and your overwhelming self rightiousness is just as sickening.

You are indeed entitled to the freedom to believe whatever you wish to believe, as well as being entitled to an opinion. You are not entitled to everyone agreeing with that opinion. Advocating turning people into human torches for expressing freedom doesn't always inspire an overwhelming desire for agreement.

We had no way of knowing if you were trying to express humorous hyperbole, but I have actually met a good number of folks that have expressed such wishes and very much meant it. Sarcasm and hyperbole these days is sometimes hard to pick up when extremism runs rampant.

If you think I was un-necessarily harsh, I apologize. I honestly thought you were being sincere. I was actually attempting to be sincere in my responce. I wasn't trying to be "overwhelming self righteous" nor insulting.

 

[21H40]

Burning the flag is only powerful because it is upsetting. If it were valued as only a piece of cloth, then there'd be no point in the burning, would there?

I like the 1A fine, and it me off to see protesters burn my flag. There's nothing wrong with being .

To you that say it's just cloth... I've got 2 lbs of steel I'll trade for your 1911, they ought to be the same, right?

I think we ought to encourage more burning in effigy instead. It looks great on TV , and concentrates on known individuals instead of this conceptual America.

 

[slowworm]

I think we ought to encourage more burning in effigy instead. It looks great on TV , and concentrates on known individuals instead of this conceptual America.

In revolutionary times burning an effigy of the King was a treasonable offense, for which the penalty was "to be taken to a place of execution and be hanged by the neck until you are dead" in olde englishe.

I can quite easily see the parallel between an effigy of the King and the flag as being an effigy of the country.

Do we really want to treat the burning of the flag in the same way as the burning of an effigy of the King was to be treated?

Is that the kind of freedom the founding fathers staked their lives, land and possesions to create? For the state to become akin to a Royal Prerogative? For a symbol to be inviolate and beyond reproach regardless of the thoughts and emotions of the individual?

I think not. The amendment on flag burning is not about the flag. It's abount control.

 

[Janitor]

Wouldn't want to let understanding get in the way of idolatry, would we? Because that's what you're doing. You're putting the symbol (the flag) far ahead of what it stands for. "

+1

I'm delighted that I'm not the only one that finds it ironic that there are laws in how to deal with a symbol of freedom.

 

[No_Brakes23]

"Peaceful" Jefferey wrote:

That's an ignorant statement...For you to say that he has no right to do so is the same as saying that the flag DOESN'T stand for freedom, and in that case, why are you so protective of it? If it doesn't stand for freedom, it's not WORTH protecting...Wouldn't want to let understanding get in the way of idolatry, would we? Because that's what you're doing. You're putting the symbol (the flag) far ahead of what it stands for...

Dude. *** is your malfunction?

Pull your head out and quit frothing at the keyboard long enough to actually read my post and you would realize you are preaching to the choir.

Jeez, my sigline alone should have clued you in to where I stand on the legality of the issue. I find it ironic that someone who rants about freedom of expression is so quick to turn their brain off at the first sign of a dissenting view.

Guess I should have bolded my text or something. Here it is again, since you missed it the first time:

"That being said, criminalizing flagburning goes against what the flag should stand for. I would rather deal with the hypocritical flagburners than with fascist laws."

 

[pax]

And this one is done.

sigh.

pax