Tell me about the 30-30 cartridge.

[Nom de Forum]

The support for the .30-30 I am reading in this thread is really great to see! Sometimes a design is just about perfect for what it is intended to do and it is very difficult to find a sufficiently improved replacement. The .30-30 reminds me of the 1935 vintage Douglas DC-3 airliner in that it just fits a niche so well it is difficult to justify replacement. DC-3s are still in use around the World just like the old .30-30. There is an anecdote in aviation that the best replacement for a DC-3 is another DC-3. The same is probably true about the .30-30 for the niche it fills.

 

[rromeo]

I don't think a Marlin .30-30 lever action rifle is the be all, end all. It do know that it works for me. I have a Weatherby Vanguard .25-06, a Remington 700 7 Rem Mag, and a Ruger No 1 .300 Weatherby. All of those will kill deer, but they're not great to carry around while hunting deer in a densely wooded area.

 

[Swampman]

I had some questions...

Originally posted by burk
I said in my post, that I would use lever revolutions, there is no doubt that they bump the 30/30 to .308 territory in performance.

There's a whole lotta doubt right here!

Putting a bullet with a ballistic coefficient of .330 in a 30-30 does about as much to put the .30 WCF into .308 Win territory as putting boxing gloves on Madonna would turn her into a WBA heavyweight contender!

#1 - .330 is NOT really that great a BC when compared to hunting bullets available for use in the .308. For instance,the Berger 190 grain VLD has a BC of .570.

#2 - The 30-30 has a SAAMI maximum pressure of 42,000 PSI, only 2,000 PSI higher than the .30 US Carbine.
The .308 has a SAAMI maximum pressure of 62,000 PSI, 1,000 PSI higher than the 7mm Remington Magnum.

#3 - The 30-30 has a usable case capacity of 45 grains of water, the .308 will hold 53 grains.

Quit buying into the hype put out by people trying to sell things. The 30-30 is an excellent cartridge for its intended use, short to medium range use against medium sized game such as deer. If people wound deer with it, it's not the fault of the cartridge. A hit in the hoof with a .378 Weatherby won't put a deer down any better than hitting 'em there with a 30-30.

It is also so superior ballistically to the 20 gauge slug that no sensible person with any knowledge of shooting or ballistics would even attempt the comparison, particularly at 200 YARDS!

And claiming that its in the same league as a cartridge that dominated the 1000 yard line in Service Rifle competition for 40 years just makes you sound ridiculous.

And since you apparently believe that the 30-30 is incapable of penetrating the tough hide of a deer deeply enough to cause a fatel wound and that the 25-06 is only a "varmint load", I've got a few questions for you.

1 - Which model of Barrett .50 BMG rifle do you use when you go into the deer woods?

2 - When you go out after elk does your gun have tracks?

3 - Can we expect a mushroom cloud if you ever decide to go after brown bear in Alaska?

Also, calling my .257 Bob a "varmint load" is gettin' mighty close to fightin' words!

 

[The Bushmaster]

Thank you Swampman. Well put!!

I have both a Browning .30-06 and an old Jackhandle .30 WCF. My go to rifle is the venerable Model 94 .30 WCF.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I always thought the 30-30 was a tad on the small side so my 94 carbine is in 32 Winchester Special...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I always thought the 30-30 was a tad on the small side so my 94 carbine is in 32 Winchester Special...

Used to have one of those myself -- .32 Special HAD to be better than .30-30, because the ammo cost so much more.

 

[burk]

Modern bolt action rifles have been around almost as long as the levergun and the 30-30 still isn't obsolete. You may think so but like said above, the 30-30 is still in the top 5 every year. You don't have to like it and I'm guessing you are fairly young so you are of the mind speed is everything.

You keep comparing the 30-30 to Varmint cartridges but the 30-30 isn't in competition with light Varmint rounds. The 30-30 in a levergun is perfectly suited as a deer cartridge in the heavy woods and that Sir will not change.


"Much more likely to to wound a deer with a 30-30", I'm calling you on that one! Of course good shot placement is necessary and with all cartridges, we don't hunt spray-n-pray. Wounded game is not the cartridges fault, it's the hunter. Have you ever taken a deer? They are not hard to kill, not harder than a man. My grandfather in the 1920's hunted for deer with a Winchester 94 chambered in 30-30 and he thought that was a big rifle for the job. There were plenty of leverguns chambered in 25-35 that killed deer too and they didn't worry about wounding deer, they knew how to shoot. Remember, back then if you lost a deer your family didn't eat.

The 30-30 is no more likely to wound an animal than other cartridges used on deer because of the 30-30 itself. Don't blame poor shooting skills on the cartridge. I would love to see credible proof a 30-30 is more likely to wound deer more than those Varmint cartridges you keep comparing it to.

You can believe what you want, I gave my opinion and I'm done here...

At retail right now in new weapons, the Ruger American and Savage Axis are selling circles around Marlin 336C's and that's in MI the heart of 30/30 country. When I was talking about Modern bolt actions I was referring to guns like them. The reality is back in the 80's (and I've been the around the gun business in MI since then) a 336C w/scope combo sold for $150, a good bolt action went for about $499 Rem 700, Win 70. Now the lower priced bolts are kicking their buts in sales.

The 30/30 is OK deer catridge inside 100 yards, again a good single shot H&R with a with a 20 ga SST will outperform it. A 243 Will out perform it and kick less. And both can be had for far less money. Lever guns are cool for nostalgia sakes and a 45/70 guide gun is a nice compact rifle in dangerous bear country. But the reality is you can buy a Ruger American in .270 with a good scope for the price of a Marlin 336C without the scope, and you'll have a far better deer gun and a great Elk, mule deer, antelope, and Black bear gun too.

Part of the poor chooting skills issue is the fact that they were cheap and a lot of novice hunters bought them. In the 80's I was the hunting manager in a large chain store and I can't tell you how many Marlin 336C scope combos went out the door the day before the opener without bore sighting much less sighting in. And those customers expected those guns to shoot good.

And I'm not a young guy "who is of the mind speed is everything". My AARP card is right around the corner, and I love my slow .45 bullets for SD.

And I've said it before so I'm tiered of the insults on the subject. I have no problem with someone buying and hunting with a lever 30-30 as long as they know it's limitations. There is something to be said for connecting to traditions and using the same tools dad used.

I fish with Bamboo Fly Rods, but I've not kidding myself that I'm getting superior performance on bigger waters in technical situations with boo over a modern well designed graphite rod.

30/30 is a great nostalgia gun, but in terms of power it's the bare minimum I'd recommend for Whitetail deer. And the bare minimum is not the best tool of choice im most situations.

 

[midland man]

wow I hate to see people selling the 30-30 short this is sad I've been running a 30-30 for years and its never let me down killed everything I put in front of it. well I hope this doesn't kill the sales of the 30-30 with people selling it short out here on the market?

 

[Jason_W]

. But the reality is you can buy a Ruger American in .270 with a good scope for the price of a Marlin 336C without the scope, and you'll have a far better deer gun and a great Elk, mule deer, antelope, and Black bear gun too.

Until it breaks, of course. I've seen a lot of negative reviews on the American.

Before the freedom group ruined the quality, Marlins were nice, robust pieces made of walnut and steel that would last generations under regular use if proper care was given. The budget bolts just feel cheap and about to break or fail at any given moment.

As for ballistics, no, the .30-30 will never be a 400 yard gun. I would argue, however, that a majority of hunters in the woods don't put in enough range time to ethically take a 400 or even 250 yard shot, so the ballistics point is moot in some ways.

Also, modern ammo technology has done amazing things for all manner of cartridges, even those invented more than 100 years ago. Yes, the el-cheapo .30-30 ammo from Wal Mart is mostly good to 125-ish yards, but some of the flex tip rounds are good to 200.

This stuff, for instance, shoots falt out to 200 yards where it is still packing more than the traditional 1000 ft/lbs of energy considered necessary for an ethical whitetail kill.

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-140-gr-monoflex-Leverevolution/

Yeah, they're more expensive than budget ammo, but few shots are typically fired during the course of most deer seasons.

If you're a handloader, the .30-30 is an awesome variable power weapon. You can load inexpensive hard cast bullets at a low velocity and take small game without evaporating them, or you can ramp up the power level to take deer out to 200 yards. The pointy barn burners just aren't that versatile.

So, if you have $400 to spend on a rifle, you could buy a new Ruger American with scope that may or may not last more than a few seasons, or you could buy a used, pre-Freedom group marlin in good condition that's made of strong wood and metal that will last several lifetimes and be good for deer out to 200 yards.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The hornady FTX leverevolution loads do absolutely NOTHING

They bring nothing new to the table and don't allow 30-30 to do anything it wasn't completely capable of doing before. They are pure placebo with a soft tip


As a handloader I can load ANY cartridge to any extent of cheap or downloaded I can my 30-30's. They just have capability above what my 94 and 840 can give. 30-30 doesn't have some sort of monopoly on downloading or cast

 

[R.W.Dale]

wow I hate to see people selling the 30-30 short this is sad I've been running a 30-30 for years and its never let me down killed everything I put in front of it. well I hope this doesn't kill the sales of the 30-30 with people selling it short out here on the market?

Nobody I see is selling the cartridge short.

I have two some to be THREE rifles so chambered and even owned a revolver.

It's just some of us don't see the need to make up a bunch of fantasies and fairy tales to try to justify the 30-30 as being better at something to enjoy it

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The hornady FTX leverevolution loads do absolutely NOTHING

They bring nothing new to the table and don't allow 30-30 to do anything it wasn't completely capable of doing before. They are pure placebo with a soft tip

Shhh! Don't say that where the children can hear. They still believe in Sandy Claws.

 

[back40]

higher BC bullets do nothing? what bullets could you use prior to these to get the same trajectory and downrage velocity ( given the same powder, charge, primer, etc.)?

 

[R.W.Dale]

higher BC bullets do nothing? what bullets could you use prior to these to get the sme trajectory ( given the same powder, charge, primer, etc.)?

NOTHING inside the range that 30-30 carries the energy to be effective. In other words inside 200 yards ballistic coifecient simply doesn't matter. Much like auto aerodynamics don't matter till speeds exceed 50mph

See my post from earlier

Even so. Inside 200 yards and claimed ballistic advantage in either spitzers or new fangled gummy bullets is largely smoke and mirrors anyways

Assuming a 200 yard target from a 150 yard ZERO using manufacturer ballistics

150g Federal Fusion 3.71"

160g hornady leverevolution 3.41


Substituting the federal fusion bullet for a nosler ballistic tip 3.20

 

[Vern Humphrey]

higher BC bullets do nothing? what bullets could you use prior to these to get the sme trajectory ( given the same powder, charge, primer, etc.)?

Nothing that makes a significant difference.

High BC bullets will not make the .30-30 into a 500 yard cartridge. They will not make it powerful enough to be the top pick for elk, moose, or grizzly.

A half inch less trajectory, a couple of hundred pounds more energy just don't change the basic limitations of the cartridge.

 

[Jason_W]

Am I the only person who thinks of 200 yards as a long way? Granted, I've hunted exclusively in Northern New England so far where unless you're watching farm land or a power line (which absolutely every other hunter in the region will be doing come opening morning) You can't usually even see a guy in blaze orange at 200 yards. Most of the deer I saw in Vermont were pretty much at spitting distance.

We recently moved from Maine to California and I can say that if I lived in one of the largely tree-less plains states, a 30-30 would not be my go to gun. I'm not sure how people hunt there at all given how the game could easily spot you from miles away.

Here in northern California, it seems to be a mix of open grass land and very thick brush. If I hunt here at all (doubtful) I'd take to those brushy patches because I know most would rather glass the fields and I don't like a crowd. The .30-30 seems like it would be just fine in that case.

 

[olafhardtB]

30-30

Some people study all these theories, bc's, sd's, etc and some people get a box of Core Locks or Power Points etc and go shoot a deer. Big deal.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Am I the only person who thinks of 200 yards as a long way?

You are not. It is not a long way on a rifle range but it sure is in the woods. I always take stories from hunters about the distance they shot a deer and figure that more than half the time they are, if not exaggerating, greatly over-estimating the distance. Kinda like fisherman and the size of the fish that gotta way. I wish more hunters would limit their shots to not how far away they can hit a deer but to how far away they cannot miss hitting a deer in the right spot. For most I think 200 yards is about max.

 

[The Bushmaster]

L O L...So true, olafhardtB.

 

[ldlfh7]

30-30 kills deer easily.
End of story.

 

[Swampman]

30-30 kills deer easily.
End of story.

NOPE!
I've never seen a 30-30 kill a single deer!
Hunters that know how to use the tools they have at hand kill deer, sometimes easily, sometimes after a helluva lot of hard work...

 

[saturno_v]

The hornady FTX leverevolution loads do absolutely NOTHING ...

Nothing that makes a significant difference.

High BC bullets will not make the .30-30 into a 500 yard cartridge. They will not make it powerful enough to be the top pick for elk, moose, or grizzly.

A half inch less trajectory, a couple of hundred pounds more energy just don't change the basic limitations of the cartridge.

I have to completely disagree on that...the point of the Leverevolution is not turning a 30-30 into a 500y cartridge or a grizzly stopper but to let the round do its job a bit better within reasonable range...to extend a bit its limitations.

In we have to believe the published ballistic info, compared to your regular 150 gr. SP Remchesteral ammo, the 160 gr. Leverevolution Hornady 30-30 ammo will retain almost 40% more energy at 300 yards (making it a decent 300y deer round where the standard 150 SP really isn't)

Difference in drop at 300y (both zeroed at 200 yards) is almost 4 inches.

Granted, figures for both (the regular 150 Soft Point and the Hornady LR) are assumed out of a 24" pipe.

Any way you want to look at it, is not small change.


Reloaders have been working with 30-30 rounds loaded with spitzer bullets in a 2 shot lever rifle setup for decades....and for a reason.

 

[saturno_v]

It is true that it is hard to separate the popularity of the 30-30 round from the success of its "natural" rifle platform, the lever action.

Why the 30-30 is still so successful?? Plenty of power to do the job at distances the vast majority of hunters will never exceed (and some should never exceed) without the excessive noise and recoil, a very handy, light rifle with a fast repeating action....hard to argue with that.

I own the magnums but the 30-30 lever is one of the favorite pieces in my collection.

 

[king cobra]

I found that the 30-30 to be a great brush gun, I hunt with a 270 & 30-06 but my back up is a M94 open sights for a close shot in wooded areas. 200 yrds. no problem. Once you own one you'll keep it for life.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I have to completely disagree on that...the point of the Leverevolution is not turning a 30-30 into a 500y cartridge or a grizzly stopper but to let the round do its job a bit better within reasonable range...to extend a bit its limitations.

In we have to believe the published ballistic info, compared to your regular 150 gr. SP Remchesteral ammo, the 160 gr. Leverevolution Hornady 30-30 ammo will retain almost 40% more energy at 300 yards (making it a decent 300y deer round where the standard 150 SP really isn't)

Difference in drop at 300y (both zeroed at 200 yards) is almost 4 inches.

Granted, figures for both (the regular 150 Soft Point and the Hornady LR) are assumed out of a 24" pipe.

Any way you want to look at it, is not small change.

Depends on how you define "small change."

First of all, who zeroes a .30-30 at 200 yards? And WHY?

It could only be someone who plans to shoot deer at 200 yards or beyond. And why would you want to do that? The woods are full of better choices for shooting at that range.