Tell me about the 5.45 X 39 round

[MaterDei]

What is this cartridge good for? I'm impressed by the cost but don't know anything about the strengths and weaknesses of this round. Also, who manufactures rifles/uppers for this round?

As always, pictures are appreciated.

TIA

 

[buzz_knox]

It's the Soviet answer to the M193 5.56 round.

The strengthes are accuracy, low expense, low recoil and somewhat good effectiveness (roughly equivalent to M193 according to some) in "social encounters." The weaknesses are the limited designs available for it and the fact that the rounds should all be treated as corrosive.

Currently, the 5.45 is generally restricted to AK pattern rifles. Mine is very (almost scary) accurate even with open sights.

S&W apparently did a brief run of ARs and uppers but that seemed to be exclusive to one distributor. Other companies have been rumored to be considering making ARs in the caliber but I don't know if anything has or will come of that.

 

[Joe Demko]

The chief weakness of the round is that there is no domestic ammuntion maker. If for some reason (an executive order for example) importation ceases, you're kind of up the creek.

 

[rangerruck]

It is a fabulous round, it is typically a 70 grainer, and what happens is , the point of the bullet when it hits something soft , bends like a boomerang, and then continues on through. you can imagine the damage path of this. it is also accurate, and I personally believe it is way better than the 223.

 

[HorseSoldier]

It's a good small caliber assault rifle round, generally comparable to 5.56mm, though people can and do debate which is better than the other. It has a flatter trajectory than 7.62x39 -- that's not much of a big deal at real world assault rifle kind of ranges, but if for some reason you want to shoot one or the other past 250-300 meters or so, the 5.45 probably has the edge.

And it is very cheap these days.

 

[buzz_knox]

Some of the rounds are 70 grains, including apparently the product improved version with enhanced armor piercing capability. One of the Wolf loads is also 70 grain, as its apparently based on the longer product improved version.

The original is nominally 50 -53 grains (depending on who you ask), and that is what the majority of the surplus is.

 

[jlbraun]

Don't take it as some kind of wonder-round. Yes, they designed it to tumble, but Fackler found that tumbling really didn't do anything to enhance the wound profile.

It is, however, a flat-shooting low-recoil accurate little booger, and the tapered case means it is stone reliable (unlike the 5.56 whose straightwall case causes problems even in AKs designed for it).

 

[HorseSoldier]

Some of the rounds are 70 grains, including apparently the product improved version with enhanced armor piercing capability. One of the Wolf loads is also 70 grain, as its apparently based on the longer product improved version.

I thought the 70 grain ammo (or at least some of it) was the same bullet length as the original 50-ish grain load, just with a solid lead bullet instead of the steel core insert and all that.

 

[buzz_knox]

I thought the 70 grain ammo (or at least some of it) was the same bullet length as the original 50-ish grain load, just with a solid lead bullet instead of the steel core insert and all that.

That could very well be it and likely is. I'd heard that the change increased the length but haven't taken the rounds apart.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

There is a ton of cheap E Bloc ammo around w/steel (or partial tungsten) cores. It's all corrosive.

Wolf offers a non corrosive, lead core round that is still fairly cheap. Best price on ammo I've seen is from AIM in Ohio.

There are Polish tantal AK-74 varrients available, but they don't have chrome bores and (so I've heard) are not the most accurate of the type owing to the US made barrel not quite being up to par. GOOD Polish tatals w/ original barrels are said to be solid performers.

I've been looking for a Romanian WASR-2 but new stocks of this 'entry level' AK-74 don't seem to be around right now.

The example (of the WASR-2) I've been shooting is very accurate and a lot of fun-- to me it could really fill a niche not unlike the one that the mini-14 did before its price point grew well beyond what it should be.

 

[HB]

What is the round based off of? is it a necked down 7.92x39 or something totally different?

HB

 

[-v-]

Its a necked 7.62x39. Right now, the up-side is that the el-cheapo surplus ammo is going to be cheaper then the cheap 7.62x39, which makes it only slightly more expensive then 9mm ball, but unlike 9mm ball this has quite proven "stopping" potential.

 

[briansmithwins]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.45

Check the cited sources for more info.

BSW

 

[Jim Watson]

5.45x39 is not just a necked down 7.62x39, it has a different head diameter.
If you are rearming an army, you don't have to worry about small savings from using the same basic case, you make it like you want it.

 

[Funderb]

Don't take it as some kind of wonder-round. Yes, they designed it to tumble, but Fackler found that tumbling really didn't do anything to enhance the wound profile.

I wouldn't say that, I would say that tumbling take a stiff second seat to expansion and fragmenting. Tumbling was made to disrupt organs, fragmentation was good for fast energy release, as well as disrupting organs, thus fragmenting is much better.

But a tumbler does a far cry more than the zippy in and out highschool type round. :nenner:

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

Its a necked 7.62x39

No it is not it has nothing in common with 7.62x39 at all, not even the so called case length, it's 39.5 mm, perhaps you shold look at a drawing of the cartridges in question, or scale photos or something.

 

[RyanM]

The rounds do tumble, but pretty much none of the ammo out there expands or fragments worth beans.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/AK-74 .html

Wolf 60 gr JHP took 8.4" before it tumbled, Wolf 60 gr FMJ took 4", and steel core military surplus took only 2.5".

Even so, a decent .223 bonded softpoint, and even M855 ammo with a cannelure, totally blows that stuff away.

 

[JShirley]

It's an inexpensive round just slightly less powerful than .223, currently chambered in former Comblock-style rifles. Users claim better accuracy than 7.62x39mm. I bought one for my SO because she thought the AK pattern was cool, the price was right, ammo was cheap, and it has so little recoil that she should enjoy shooting it without getting beat up.

And my personal philosophy on "combat" rifles, is anything more powerful than a .22 Magnum is powerful enough.

I remember an East German bolt-action chambered for it, that sold some 12 years or so ago. Ah, it's an SSG-82. They were affordable back when, before easily available 5.45.

World.Guns.Ru;
Tamara had a thread here about the SSG. She got 2 MOA with cheap surplus ammo, but BHP9 claims less than MOA with handloads. Current price on these seems to be $1200-1600.

John

 

[PercyShelley]

Quite a lot of effort to handload that 5.45!

What sort of ballistic coefficient does that 70 grain stuff have? Should be quite long and skinny.

 

[JShirley]

Dunno...but the sectional density is .218. A 77 grain M262 bullet has a SD of .221...as does a 147 grain .308.

For comparison, M43 7.62x39mm has SD of .183.

J

 

[PercyShelley]

Probably roughly between mk262 and m855 then in BC and gross performance.

 

[Jim Watson]

Makes me wonder if the .223 is so "weak" why have the Russians and the Chinese both gone smallbore after watching us for several years?

 

[Bartkowski]

Makes me wonder if the .223 is so "weak" why have the Russians and the Chinese both gone smallbore after watching us for several years?

In comparison to what we used to use it is weak. But the other benefits of the cartridge out-weigh the difference in power.

 

[rangerruck]

I have a book around here somewhere, it is a hardcover, white, simple called , the ak 47, with one on the cover. What the russians did when testing for new ammo, was to look primarily for killing parameters, in accordance with wound channeling, and the like. They found out basically outside of 150 meters, the chance of serious injury or death occurred with the 545, at about twice the rate as with the 762, so that is why they switched.

 

[JShirley]

You gotta think- the Russians, instead of just copying the Germans as many military historians have suggested, actually started playing around with assault rifles before WWI. They used 6.5x50SR Arisaka rounds, but had initially planned on making their own 6.5mm round. The Arisaka fired a 139 grain round at 2500 fps. Considering this was from a 31" barrel, power was actually pretty close to the 7.62x39mm (123@2300 from 16" barrel).

My point is this: compared to the "battle rifle" class 7.62x54mm, the Arisaka is weak. The 7.62x25mm submachine guns the Russians made in the millions during WWII are weak. A small caliber bullet traveling faster is just a different way to go...but the 5.45x39mm is still more powerful than the 7.62x25mm.