Ten Shot Groups?

[Picher]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Good one CLP!

You might as well just shoot one shot and call it a group. Why waste the ammo to shoot two more shots?

I'll read the article before outright claiming for certain that the author is full of it, but my initial, knee-jerk reaction is; "What a waste of time, bullets, powder, primers and wear on cases."
By the way, speaking about wind, in this part of Idaho, we have a saying about the weather. It's, "If you don't like the weather, wait 10 minutes and it will change." However, the gusty wind is a constant. We don't have a real shooting "range" around here, but because of our constant, gusty wind I know what you mean about how long it would take to shoot 10-shot groups that provide any more information than our 3 or 4 shot groups. We'd be spending all day at the county gravel pit. Which is okay since we're both retired. But talk about boring!

I'd like to have about 1/10 the number of rounds I've fired in gravel pits over the years. They're deep enough around here that wind was never much of a problem.

 

[Varminterror]

I typically shoot 6 round groups for my primary ladder/OCW, then 10 for my secondary.

If you start with a known/proven combination of powder, case capacity, pressure, and bullet, life is very simple. I might test two powders in a new rifle, maybe 3, have 60 rounds in my first run, maybe 50 rounds in my second run, then punch about 2 dozen to get 0-800yrds DOPE... 135 rounds and I’m ready for anything 0-800. For some loads/cartridges where I know the ONE bullet and powder combination I’ll end up shooting, I might have 50 rounds to find the node and then the seating depth...

I’d rather shoot one 10 shot group than four 3 shot groups. I learn a hell of a lot more about the load.

 

[mshootnit]

I usually shoot a 2 or 4 shot group. 2 shots to check zero on a well established rifle/ load.
4 shots with a new rifle or load.
Shooting a ten shot string is testing the shooter not the rifle.

 

[mshootnit]

I usually shoot a 2 or 4 shot group. 2 shots to check zero on a well established rifle/ load.
4 shots with a new rifle or load.
Shooting a ten shot string is testing the shooter not the rifle.

My objectives are to get hunting rifles ready.

 

[Pete D.]

Virtually all of my rifle shooting is target shooting and is shot from prone position at 100-200 yards. That is the way I test loads and develop them. These are always 10 shot groups.

 

[Varminterror]

One of my shooting coaches used to use an analogy about shooting few shot groups and stopping at third base with a buxom blonde...

 

[denton]

Here is an article that I did for Varmint Hunter a few years ago. It addresses some of the questions that have been raised here.

One other comment: If you're using a range type measurement (extreme spread or group size for example), you lose statistical power as the number of items in the group increases. The range of a group of 2 has 100% of the available information about variation. The range of a group of 5 has 90%. The range of a group of 10 has only 60%. Switching from 5 to 10 shots per group doubles your round count, but does not even nearly double your information yield.

 

[Sniper66]

Group size for me depends on what I'm doing. If I am zeroing my squirrel rifle in preparation for a squirrel hunt after the gun has been sitting in the gun cabinet unfired for a few months, I will shoot differently than if I'm testing newly loaded ammo, When I'm developing loads for a new rifle or new bullets, I load 5 rounds each of 5 different loads, then go to the range to try them out. You can usually eliminate 2 or 3 and start fine tuning those that seem to shoot consistently: I load 5 more of the remaining rounds and head to the range again. I can't really say how many I eventually shoot. Sometimes, I've given up on a certain bullet, buy new bullets, and start again. Depends on what I trying to figure out. Groups of 3, 5, or 10 are meaningless to me. I just shoot until I've accomplished what I need to. Sometimes I quit in frustration and reassess the rifle. Sometimes I take a friend who consistently shoots better than I do to help me figure it out. I've had occasion to give up on a rifle and sell it. Group size? Who knows?

 

[CoalTrain49]

My #1 light barrel on my Howa will go south in 10 shots. It starts stringing left in 5 shots.

I think 10 shots might be appropriate for an heavy barrel rifle but not a sporter. 5 would be plenty. I test with 3 shot groups. Cold barrels always group better for me. Sometimes they touch.

 

[ontarget]

For a hunting rifle, the only shot that counts is the first shot from a cold barrel. Why shoot 10 after you have zeroed for your chosen load? For my target rifles I usually just staple new targets over the last one so at the end of the day the bottom target shows my total group. Maybe 20-100 rounds depending on which rifle. That exercise would be a real eye opener to SOME of the "MOA" shooters.

 

[joneb]

My Howa sporter in 308 win. will group three rounds in 3/4" at a 100 yds after that things go south. I figure for a hunting rifle that's good enough.
I guess it all depends on the purpose of the firearm.

 

[Ru4real]

If you're using a range type measurement (extreme spread or group size for example), you lose statistical power as the number of items in the group increases.

I learned in statistics that I need to shoot at least 32 times to be 95% confident I will know exactly where my 33rd shot will go. Also, 95% confidence is pretty darn confident. Six 5 round and one 3 round group should get you to that confidence level. Or one 33 round group. Your quote seems counter to the math.

 

[anymanusa]

Boy you guys must he a barrel of laughs when you get a drink in you.

 

[FL-NC]

I think its a waste of ammo. I generally use 5 shot groups, but if the first 3 are tight and on target, I call it good.

 

[Jim Watson]

My Howa sporter in 308 win. will group three rounds in 3/4" at a 100 yds after that things go south. I figure for a hunting rifle that's good enough.
I guess it all depends on the purpose of the firearm.

Yup.
If you are a target shooter, you need to know what 5, 10, or 20 shots will do, depending on your event.

 

[Legionnaire]

I'm not very sophisticated statistically. I shoot 3-shot groups to confirm a rifle's zero; if I have to adjust, I'll shoot three more.

When testing loads, I generally shoot five 5-shot groups. I could average across groups, but usually don't. I look for consistency. If they measure similarly, I look at the worst group and decide whether it is acceptable ("acceptable" varies by application). I don't call a "flyer" unless I know for certain it was me. If not acceptable, I'll keep working on it.

 

[Picher]

When I go to the range to check handloads (or rarely, a new type/brand of factory ammo), I fire a couple of 3-shot groups. If I feel that each shot is representative of the load's true character, but not within the rifle's normal performance with good loads, I might just shoot a few shots offhand at the 200 meter gong, for practice. If the load had represented the rifle's normal range of groups, I'll often mark the box as a good load.

When in the rare occurrence that the load seems to be exemplary, I'll shoot a 5-shot group or two for assurance the first groups weren't a fluke. If the 5-shot groups are still great, I'll so mark the box and reproduce the load.

A one MOA grouping ability isn't usually good enough for me to reproduce. A half-inch grouping is fine for deer or moose, but my varmint load groups need to be even smaller, 1/4" to 3/8" is okay for me with most of my varmint rifles, but if I wasn't such a fussy shooter, a 1 1/4" MOA group would not fail to kill most crows or woodchucks within 150 yards, since most shots would probably hit within .93" of the zero point at that distance (if shot from a solid rest).

Is that being anal? Yes, but isn't that what we're about when shooting our accurate rifle/scope varmint/range combinations? Anal-R-US and proud of it.

 

[old heeler]

I shoot 5 shot groups for my hunting rifles, course first shot is most important. I do shoot out to 300yds before I decide on a load. I do expect groups to be repeater when I got back to range.

I guess since we can get powder now they want you to start burning some.

 

[TN Outlaw]

The internet has once again shown me what an amature i am.

I havent took the law of avg, mathmatical probabilitys, and %'s with me to the range. I figure if a person wants to be that advanced on predictablity of the next shot they need to lock their rifle in a vise that allows no movement of the rifle, have an indoor range that allows no wind, and shoot in a mannor that doesent allow heat up to interfere with the bullets POI.

Any other way invites all sorts of variables into the mean of the groups. The shooter and wind being big factors, im not sure shooting massive round counts is really telling you that much more about the ability of the rifle/ammo alone. Not to mention the higher the round count, the more shooter fatigue plays a part.

If a person shoots the rifle in matches it would be benificial because all of those variables will be present in the match anyway. If they are shooting for the enjoyment, shoot ever how many rounds you enjoy. For hunting purposes, i feel 3-5 shot groups are enough to sight in and determine what load shoots to suit you. For that matter 4 or 6, dont have to be 3 or 5 just like 10 or 30 could very well be 11 or 19. We just use generic round counts.

Personally after getting dialed in i like to stop by my range a few diff days and fire a cold bore shot each day and see how close each cold shot is to each other and may fine tune if need be.

Maybe im not shooting enough, maybe i am. Seems to work pretty good for me although i dont compete. If i did i may very well have a diff opinion.

 

[someguy2800]

Sighting in a gun is a different thing than actually working out its accuracy potential with a certain load. If your just sighting in a deer rifle 3 shots is just fine. If you really want to get an idea of how precise a load is you need more data points either in the form of larger groups or more groups. Otherwise your just lying to yourself.

 

[someguy2800]

Personally after getting dialed in i like to stop by my range a few diff days and fire a cold bore shot each day and see how close each cold shot is to each other and may fine tune if need be.

This is what I do with my deer rifles. I take them all out on random days in different temperatures and shoot a cold bore shot and note its position. Mabey 1 or 2 more after that and move on the next gun. In the winter I also leave my guns and ammo out in the garage overnight to see what they will do when its cold. You find some very enlightening things at 25 degrees below zero. Loads and guns that you would have trusted your life too at normal temps sometimes fail to work completely.

 

[denton]

I learned in statistics that I need to shoot at least 32 times to be 95% confident I will know exactly where my 33rd shot will go. Also, 95% confidence is pretty darn confident. Six 5 round and one 3 round group should get you to that confidence level. Or one 33 round group. Your quote seems counter to the math.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that statement is far from being correct.

 

[Walkalong]

Here is an article that I did for Varmint Hunter a few years ago. It addresses some of the questions that have been raised here.

One other comment: If you're using a range type measurement (extreme spread or group size for example), you lose statistical power as the number of items in the group increases. The range of a group of 2 has 100% of the available information about variation. The range of a group of 5 has 90%. The range of a group of 10 has only 60%. Switching from 5 to 10 shots per group doubles your round count, but does not even nearly double your information yield.

That's a good article, and touches on a lot of stuff, but like most articles, it has some (IMHO) erroneous thoughts and doesn't really nail it down. No disrespect intended, I think that about all of them. Overall I like the article.

It really depends on what we want the rifle to do and what we will accept as proof to ourselves it will do that well enough to be personally satisfied.

My Bench gun is a 1/4 moa or better gun from a vise in a dead calm (Some would say smaller than that), but I can easily shoot groups bigger than that if I miss a pickup in the condition or even worse, a switch.

My .222 Mag heavy barrel varmint gun can shoot 1/4" groups, and has, but it isn't a 1/4" rifle, more like 1/2" in my mind, and again, I can shoot bigger groups with it in a heartbeat.

Some people blame everything on the gun, wind etc, no excuses, and then the other crowd claims all bad shots as fliers. Neither crowd is correct. In competition I always blamed everything on me and tried to focus better, while some people would blame scopes, barrels, actions, brass, anything but themselves, and then wondered why they didn't get better.

I have told this story before, but once the fellow next to me at Riverbend in a registered Benchrest match got mad and threw his brass in the trash. (We had bet a dollar a group and a dollar on the agg) I told him it wasn't the brass, got it out, loaded it, and beat him in the next group with his own brass. He got real mad then and screwed the barrel off. Looking back I should have just left well enough alone and encouraged him.

 

[Offfhand]

I'm thinking that the commentary on this thread would have been equally interesting - possibly even moreso - if the posters had included the time intervals between shots when firing for group.

 

[Varminterror]

I don't call a "flyer" unless I know for certain it was me.

For me, the only confirmed flyer is a "called" flyer, meaning it's "called" in flight because the sight picture is seen to be off target as the shot breaks. Not the game where we're talking about a low shot count group where one is hanging out by itself, and the guy stands in front of the target and says - "eh, I must have pulled that one..."