Defining group size

[Soupy44]

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but I've come across something bothering me from a thread on here:

When you say your rifle shoots Xin groups at X yards, how often do you get groups like that?

I have shot smallbore comparatively 18 of my 25 years of life. At 100y, the X ring is 1in, 10 ring 2 in. I don't have much trouble getting all 20 shots for record in the 10 ring on even a mildly windy day. On calm days, I usually clean the target with at least 15 Xs. But in 18 years, I have only once shot a perfect 20X (20 straight shots in the 1in X ring in 20min in competition).

There was a thread on here recently about shooting .22lr at 100 yards. A few people claimed to have 10/22's and other nonmatch rifles that group 1in at 100 yards. Does 1in mean you once had that group, twice, three times? I ask because I would say my rifle groups about 1.5-2in at 100 using ammo that's up to $0.25 per shot. I've had groups of 5-7 shots that could have been covered with a dime, but those are accompanied by shots that make the group bigger than one inch.

I'm guessing this is subjective, and this may be more of a rant than anything. Just want to see what everyone thinks about this.

 

[KodiakBeer]

A few people claimed to have 10/22's and other nonmatch rifles that group 1in at 100 yards.

People make stuff up.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

You dont think anyone is going to tell about their bad groups do you?

 

[taliv]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415997

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=557414

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=521577

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=271846

 

[unwise11]

Hehe, I made that second link...
don't get mad because someone shot a nice group, get mad because they lie about the bad ones.

 

[Float Pilot]

I occasionally get some very nice groups after 40 years of hand-loading experiments.

But for the 50 or so super groups I have cut-out in my hand-load logbook, there were thousands and thousands of crappy groups.

But just like having to bail mom out of jail on a vice charge, it is not something one brings up at the Gentlemen's Club.

 

[happygeek]

Yeah, I've got a few pics like this one:


but the whole reason I took the pic is that it's unusual for me and I was proud of it. I mean, the 50 yard 5 shot group from my 22LR fit inside a quarter, roughly 1/2 inch, but I've only done that once (probably wasn't any wind that day either).

I took the 25m simulate range target that someone posted in PDF form on here awhile back and re-worked it in MS Word to be a 2 page 25m qual target with 100m standing, 200m kneeling, 300m sitting, and 3x 400m prone silhouettes so I could work on my fundamentals, which honestly aren't that great. I'm definitely the limiting factor, not the rifle.

By the way, I've got a lot of respect for whoever originally made that 25m qual target; scoring over 85 out of 100 on that thing [from the listed positions] is no mean feat. I had to shoot the whole thing prone with a bipod to do that.

 

[Bill B.]

There was a thread on here recently about shooting .22lr at 100 yards. A few people claimed to have 10/22's and other nonmatch rifles that group 1in at 100 yards.

They shoot those groups with American Eagle & Remington Golden Bullet Bulk, 4x scopes, Marlin M60's that they have done super duper trigger jobs on and some of the targets posted they don't count their flyers as part of the group. I would like to see some scores from these same posters on a BR50 target scored by a witness. I don't think you will see these targets ever posted................

 

[wanderinwalker]

Soupy, I'm with you on the difference between "braggin' groups" and long-run average. The true long-run average of most shooters is multiple times the size of the bragging groups.

I've just started shooting smallbore this winter for practice to keep me in shape for summer Highpower. There is only one .22 rifle I have ever played with that could match the loaner Winchester 52 I have, and it didn't say "Ruger" or "Savage" or "Marlin" on the side...

 

[padd54]

To me the groups that I have posted and seen from others are showing the "rifles" capability with a given load, NOT my ability to shoot the groups consistently. I try to take me out of the equation as much as possible during development. Once I find a good load, then I begin to practice in "field" conditions.

 

[GCBurner]

I KNOW I'm a great shot. It's just, sometimes, the gun, or the ammo, or the wind, or some factor beyond my control does something to keep me from showing it.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Just want to see what everyone thinks about this.

I think lying about group size is right up there with lying about how big the fish was, ie. so prevalent that it's practically a given.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

One day, when I grow up, I want to be able to shoot the eyes off a flea at 2500 yards with a souped up 10/22 from a standing, offhand, position like some of these mall ninjas we see here sometimes

Personally, the only time I worry about "grouping" is for load development or when I re-barrel or re-stock a weapon. I, like any other hunter that really gives a crap, truly care about one shot and one shot only. THE FIRST ONE. Granted I like to know that if for some unknown reason I actually screwed up and missed, such as an unseen twig or I blinked or something equally retarded, I'd like to know my second shot will be at least where it is supposed to be as long as I do what I am supposed to. So basically I go with 3 shot grouping strings.

Now on my bench rifles, I definitely go with 10 shot strings in a span of 5 minutes (on 500 to 800 meter range). This gives me more than enough information on my loadings as well as the performance level of my weapon.

 

[mshootnit]

I think that a 4 or 5 shot group is about as representative as it gets and a range of groups on a range of days should be taken to get true performance. I have a rifle that can shoot sub moa but is really closer to 1.5-1.75 moa. BUT the fact that on some days it shoots that good shouldn't be overlooked, especially if you are a deer on the receiving end. 3 shot groups are ok but maybe not quite representative enough of true grouping potential. Any more than five shots and human error comes more into play...then you are testing the man not the rifle. Thats my 2 cents. 3 shots are ok for zeroing. I had a friend that kept every group shot in a 3 ring binder and each target was identical with data written in the same way on each sheet. You could look through at least 50 pages of groups with that exact same rifle. Pretty cool for comparing ammo.

 

[TonyAngel]

When someone says that they shoot consistent 1" groups at 100 yards with a 10/22, I kind of just pass the statement by. If I were to say something, it would be to call BS on them. Personally, when I post groups its only to show what the equipment is capable of, not my shooting skills. When I'm developing a load, I shoot from a sandbag at the front and a squeeze bag at the back, so it isn't as much shooting as it is testing the equipment.

I will say this though, when I post groups, I do like to do a little bit of bragging by showing my best group, but I usually post all of the groups that I shot in that session. I believe it shows consistency, or lack thereof.

On the other side of the spectrum, not all posts of good groups are BS. There are some guys that can really shoot and others that have really good equipment and some that are/have both. I know that both of my precision rifles are good shooters. My AR will shoot sub MOA all day long, when I'm up to it, with it's favorite ammunition. Then again, I have a lot of time, money, blood, sweat and tears in that build. I also have a bolt gun in .308 and sub half MOA groups are the norm. When I shoot one bigger than that it ticks me off. Again, these are examples of what the equipment is capable of.

When I practice, I use a bipod and squeeze bag and all I'm doing is trying to hit the X-ring, not measuring groups.

 

[ElToro]

i have a carbon fiber lined bull barrel and volquartsen internals on my 10/22. cost maybe ~200$ over the price of admission 10-15 years ago. federal gold medal match is the best ive shot out of it and honestly i never measured the groups but they are tight enough for small animals. i also have a 60's vintage savage -anschutz sporter that will drive tacks and lastly a kimber HS bull barel with leupold 6-20 set up for silhoute shooting.. now that gun.. almost boring how good the groups are with federal gold medal match. set up weighs like 10+ pounds.. never shot competively . just fun plinking on BLM land.

 

[Coal Dragger]

There is a big difference in achievable accuracy from a bench rest, and from say prone with a heavy shooting jacket and shooting sling. One of them also requires a lot more skill, requires a lot more shots for record on the target for a "group" size, and is generally a game of shooter skill. The other is a crutch for those that like to brag about little groups.

 

[JDGray]

I will say this though, when I post groups, I do like to do a little bit of bragging by showing my best group, but I usually post all of the groups that I shot in that session. I believe it shows consistency, or lack thereof.

I think along these lines......Nothing wrong with bragging about your good ones, but show the days groups along with them. The post that started this thread is a contest, of course your only gonna see the good Saying that sub moa factory rifles don't exist is BS, I own two of them, and don't feel I just got lucky either. If you can consistantly shoot .5moa with a certain load, why isn't that a .5moa shooter for you? I'm not gonna count the bad groups while load development, the 1.5" ones that are only seen on a bad componet combo, cause it wasn't the guns fault. The rifle is gonna shoot better than us most of the time, but when we do it right, and a bug hole group appears, its worth a pic and some braggin

 

[Offfhand]

Mr. Soupy44, I know exactly where you're coming from. I shot smallbore prone for many years (Including Nats. and many regionals, where I competed against the best.) and in recent times rim-fire bench rest tournaments. So I have a pretty good idea of what rim-fire accuracy is and isn't. And like you, when I see these ridiculous claims of fine accuracy with ordinary rifles and ammo I have to wonder "where do these people get such outlandish notions." Mostly I think it comes simply from spending too much time at the computer and actually believing the claims they read. Such as "My AR shoots 5 in 1/4 MOA -if I do my part." (sound familiar?) And there is the matter of innocent ignorance, like the time I was shooting at a public range and put up a target at 100 yards. A nearby shooter was impressed that I was going to shoot at "200 yards." When I told him it was only 100 yards he disagreed because as he then pointed out, he had his target at 100 yards. In fact he had his target on the 50 yard line, but was fully convinced he was shooting one inch groups at 100.
And that's pretty much how it goes with the surrealistic accuracy of the cyber fantasy world. And pretty much explains why we read about all this fantastic accuracy on shooting sites, but almost never see it for real at a shooting range.

 

[browningguy]

One of them also requires a lot more skill, requires a lot more shots for record on the target for a "group" size, and is generally a game of shooter skill. The other is a crutch for those that like to brag about little groups.

It's still hard for me to fathom why some so called sportsmen want to spend all their time belittling the shooting games other people prefer. Shoot what you want, but why not lay off the other people that like to shoot something different.

 

[d2wing]

LOL. It's had to seperate the wheat for the chaf on the internet. I doubt any claims of acccuracy or posted targets unless the guy shoots in competition with lots of witnesses.

 

[joed]

Lots of people won't tell you about their bad groups. I have my bad days too but for the most part I work on my rifles till they are close to 1/2" at 100 yards. If I can't get a group that small I get rid of the rifle. I do have a .300 Mag and used to have a 7mm that were 3/4" and felt that was acceptable with those cartridges the way they kick. Every rifle I have is consistent, wish I was.

I once owned a heavy barreled Savage 12VSS in .22-250 that would shoot a decent group but the more you shot it the poi looked like the right side of a V. That rifle was sold after 2 months, I couldn't get it to settle down.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I don't neccessarily think people are lying about their good groups. I just think they keep mum about the bad ones. I've shot a sub moa group or two (not with a Marlin 60 or a 10/22) but it's certainly not an everyday occurence. It feels good when you shoot a group like that. Why? Because it doesn't happen very often. At least it doesn't for me.

 

[clutch]

If you shoot 10 rounds and get a decent group, then you can brag on it.

Clutch

 

[BrocLuno]

Sure, but ...

Set up a target at 50 yds out the back door. Once a day for a week, shot one cold shot and put the rifle away behind the kitchen door. That's 7 first shots. Show me that target?

I'd be lucky if they were all under 2" with my Remington TargetMaster, and it will drive tacks from a rest. But in that scenario, I won't

Do the same for an 06 at 100 yds. Let's see that one too? Now you know what the "intruder" is actually facing