'Terrorism' redefined?

[chris in va]

I had a thought today. For years after the initial WTC bombing and subsequent 2001 collapse, America has been on heightened alert for 'terrorists' attacking our homeland.

But that implies an outside threat from other countries, or imbedded cells. Just like the DC sniper, we were on the lookout for a white box truck, not a blue Caprice.

Maybe I'm on the wrong track with this, but it seems to me the real terrorist threat is from born and raised Americans doing horrible things. We've had *many* more attacks from people not even remotely affiliated with traditional 'terror cells'.

Thoughts?

 

[Standing Wolf]

I certainly don't mean to belittle the threat of Islamic terrorist savagry; as usual, however, the enemy within is far more dangerous than the enemy without.

America's home-grown socialist parasites stand a far greater chance of turning us into statist serfs, and seek to do so in the name of so-called "public safety."

Criminals kill a few of us now and then, whereas socialists seek to kill an entire nation.

 

[akattack]

I have a great idea,why don't we just declare anyone we don't like or disagrees with our politics to be terrorists,then we can kill everybody.I don't like roman catholics.

 

[RLsnow]

worked well the last time didnt it?

 

[El Tejon]

You mean are guys like Johnny Jihad, aka Suleyman al-Faris, aka Hamza Lindh, aka John Phillip Walker Lindh, a bigger threat than The Base sending operatives here?

No, while the modern permissive society (broken homes, lose of purpose, belief in government as God) that we live in has created a megasurplus of Johnny Lindhs, they are more like wandering mad dogs. To be dangerous they need a pack (The Base).

By himself Malvo could kill a couple of people at a time. With help Malvo could kill hundreds if not thousands.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The real threat is from our own government, using "terrorism" to shred the Constitution.

Do you read the news much? There's a whole new class of crime out there since 9/11, called "terroristic threatening." I have read numerous reports where ONE person who threatened ONE other person was charged with "terroristic threatening." Not good, old-fashioned threatening, mind you, but "teroristic" threatening. In a couple of those cases, IIRC, the alleged terrorist was a grammar school kid engaging in verbal sparring with a schoolmate.

I guess I'm not very smart, but it just seems to me we should reserve responses to "terrorism" for terrorists and stop misapplying anti-terrorism laws against ordinary, everyday bad behaviors.

 

[Wes Janson]

ter·ror·ism /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key [ter-uh-riz-uhm] –noun

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1785–95; terror + -ism]

The problem isn't that we need to redefine the term, it's that no one wants to admit to the obvious truth that there are many other forms of terrorism than just bombings, and that many in this country are guilty of the word as defined.

 

[Seancass]

Terrorists cant attack us without guns. if we make guns illegal, then what are they going to do? poke us with forks?


p.s. this is a locked thread that doesnt know its locked yet.

 

[Nightwing]

Terrorists cant attack us without guns. if we make guns illegal, then what are they going to do? poke us with forks?

you're kidding right? You're gonna come in here and talk about gun control being the answer? Really? :banghead:

 

[RNB65]

It's not terrorism that I fear. I fear the loss of freedoms and civil liberties in the name of fighting terrorism.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -- Author unknown (contrary to popular belief, neither this quote nor any of its paraphrased versions, were written by Ben Franklin).

 

[JohnBT]

No, but he published it. Possibly written by one Richard Jackson IIRC. JT

 

[RedLion]

I have to agree with RNB65. getting killed by a terrorist doesn't scare me as much as living in a police state. In fact that might make even more "terrorists" because one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

We also need to remember that terrorists can only control us if we let them. There is no possible way a guerilla type force can maintain control over anything except your emotions and choices.

 

[4v50 Gary]

You're right about folks born & bred here. I suspect that the greatest number of terrorist acts still being committed within our borders are by the PETA and Earth First! people. They, however, in committing their terrorist acts (like burning down laboratories) don't attempt to kill thousands of Americans.

 

[DogBonz]

Terrorists?

I would fear the Tyrants in office 100 times more than all of the terrorists combined.

The erosion of our constitutionally protected liberties. The perversion of words. The dumbing down in schools. Our "border". The impending extinction of the middle class. Americans in more debt than ever. Jobs and industry fleeing the USA like rats from a sinking ship....


BUT EVERYONE.... LOOK OUT FOR "TERRORISTS"!!!

 

[DogBonz]

Double Tap

Sorry... Double Tap

 

[Autolycus]

I would agree. We still have terrorist organizations like The KKK running around, the World Church of the Creator, The Aryan Nations, and other so called "Patriot" groups running around which threaten us. Islamic terrorism, while it has been responsible for the most devastating attack on our country, is not as threatening as these groups.

We still have ELF and ALF running around. We still allow the KKK and many Neo-Nazi groups to recruit in our country, unhindered at that.

I agree that the US government is the greatest terrorist threat to us. It has been to many other nations such as Palestine and Iraq. Not to mention Afghanistan and others. Let us not forget Cuba and China. At one point they, along with Vietnam, turned to the US for help but we turned them down. Then they turned to the USSR for help and we get pissed.

Seems we should fear our government more than any other.

 

[Zoogster]

I would fear the Tyrants in office 100 times more than all of the terrorists combined.

Exactly.

I would agree. We still have terrorist organizations like The KKK running around, the World Church of the Creator, The Aryan Nations, and other so called "Patriot" groups running around which threaten us. Islamic terrorism, while it has been responsible for the most devastating attack on our country, is not as threatening as these groups.

We still have ELF and ALF running around. We still allow the KKK and many Neo-Nazi groups to recruit in our country, unhindered at that.

Starting to sip the kool-aid I see.
You do realize groups organizing and being capable of self defense regardless of what we think of thier beliefs is a very American tradition.

Tolerating armed groups that have beliefs you do not agree with is also an American tradition. In fact the very reason to be armed is so that people that do not agree with thier beliefs have more trouble squashing them like a bug without opposition.

In fact all US citizens should be armed and capable of defending themselves as a group when attacked for any economic, social, racial, or political reason. How they band together will depend on the reason they are being discriminated against.

You work to challenge the beliefs of the people or groups of people you do not agree with, not disarm them due to not agreeing with them.

In fact that is the entire purpose of the 2nd to begin with. To thwart tyranny. Well punishing people, and treating them differently because of thier beliefs, however wrong we find them is tyranny. Urging our legislators and government to pass laws doing so is enabling and encouraging tyranny.
It is thier actions they must be judged on.

That does not mean profiling based on beliefs is not a smart tactic. However that should be the extent of it. To assist in accurate gathering of intelligence.

"Good" tyranny is as dangerous as "bad" tyranny. Julius Caesar was very popular, and acted with the support of the people. Yet he brought an end to the Roman Republic. Sometimes great things are ended with applause. Lets not allow the Constitution and American freedoms to be added to the list of such things.

Do not support the reduction of freedoms of any group regardless of thier beliefs, only the punishment of individuals for actions taken.
If you do it is only a matter of time before that precedent is used against you.



Terrorism is a buzz word. It can be applied to anyone and everyone at will for any offense commited. Since some people will be scared from most offenses, they will have been terrorized. Open carrying could be considered terrorism. Supporting radical pro gun ideals could be considered supporting terrorism. Believing in the purpose of the Second Amendment definately makes you a conspirator of terrorism, as it means you believe in the violent overthrow of the government if necessary.
Giving funds to pro gun organizations could be considered supporting terrorism. All it takes is the stroke of a pen to label such a group extremists or a terrorist organization.

In fact the willingness to use a firearm or other weapon to defend your beliefs makes you a terrorist.
"Terrorism" as defined by the government is a natural political process. Rebels in some third world nation acting to overthrow an oppressive regime can quickly find themselves labeled a terrorist organization by the US government simply because our government has good trade relations with the regime.
In fact that is what a terrorist is as defined by the governments of the world all unifying to "fight terrorism". Any group willing to challenge the status quo, and capable of doing so with armed resistance, regardless of what the status quo is.That is why so many governments around the world love this new war on terrorism. It is the new term for legaly oppressing dissent, and getting international cooperation in doing so.

 

[asknight]

I would agree. We still have terrorist organizations like The KKK running around, the World Church of the Creator, The Aryan Nations, and other so called "Patriot" groups running around which threaten us. Islamic terrorism, while it has been responsible for the most devastating attack on our country, is not as threatening as these groups.

As is the Black Panthers, NAACP, IRS, Greenpeace, etc.

Until ALL of those groups (as listed by both of us) are abolished, the problems will continue.

 

[Roswell 1847]

In fact the willingness to use a firearm or other weapon to defend your beliefs makes you a terrorist.

Nope. If you use any weapon of any kind to attack the defenseless in order to force your agenda on a populace by means of inciting fear, you'd be a Terrorist.
Terrorists aren't defending themselves or their beliefs, they are trying to impose their beliefs, or crush resistence to them while they impose their beliefs.
Governments can also be terrorist in nature.

I agree that the US government is the greatest terrorist threat to us. It has been to many other nations such as Palestine and Iraq. Not to mention Afghanistan and others. Let us not forget Cuba and China. At one point they, along with Vietnam, turned to the US for help but we turned them down. Then they turned to the USSR for help and we get pissed.

Seems we should fear our government more than any other.

Its difficult to respond to that without seeming to attack the messenger, but here goes.

We aided China in ousting the Japanese invader.
We aided South Vietnam in resisting communist invasion for many years.
The US all but openly backed Castro and he revealed his Communist ties after he came to power not before.
We aided the majority of the people of Afghanistan in ousting a tyranical minority, and helped Afghanistan to establish a new form of Democratic representative Government.
Before that we aided these same Afghani in ousting the Soviet Invaders. Don't even start of the bogus CIA trained Bin Laden mantra. The Taleban didn't exist as a political enity or fighting force until long after the Soviets were driven out.
The US has never invaded Palestine, in fact every political move we've made has been in the Palestinians favor.

Now that Iraq has begun to wind down a bit perhaps we can look at the conditions that lead to ousting the Saddam Crime family in a clearer light.
The Long range missiles and longer range missile programs uncovered and the proven attempts to obtain Korean no Dong missiles indicate that Saddam intended to once again try to close off the Persian Gulf.
Iraq experimentation in converting old stock Mustard gases into easily portable rifle grenades and aerisol containers for covert operations went on until days before the invasion. Just the sort of Chemical weapons most useful for terrorist attacks and assassinations.

Your claim that our own government is your greatest fear, puts you more in line with the claims of the nut groups which you say are more of a threat than Islamic Terrorism. Sounds like something Rosie O'donell would say.

Honestly I don't see how you can have lived in the US for any length of time without having a better grasp of historical facts.
I guess what they say about our school systems is at least partly true afterall.

PS
Are you spoofing Liberals for laughs?

 

[1911Tuner]

Maybe I'm on the wrong track with this, but it seems to me the real terrorist threat is from born and raised Americans doing horrible things.

Hi Chris,

While I agree that things like the recent carnage at the shopping mall and other places like that are indeed terrifying for the people who endured it...
I don't think that it fits into the category of "Terrorism" in the literal sense.
Although the shooter probably thought about his act and planned it for several days or weeks...it was a random act without a real reason.

It would seem...to me at least...that an act of terrorism as we have come to understand it is done with some sort of political, religious, or socio-economical
agenda behind it.

A lone rifleman picking random targets on a busy freeway at rush hour probably isn't an act of terrorism. The actions of the Unabomber probably were...and both are likely coupled with a deranged thought process.

While radical Muslim terrorists may indeed be of doubtful mental capacity, their actions are religiously and politcally motivated, with an end game as a result. Even though the line between simple random violence and true terrorism tend to blur at times, there does seem to be one. They don't kill just for the sake of killing, but rather kill as part of a plan to dominate and control.

 

[Wes Janson]

As is the Black Panthers, NAACP, IRS, Greenpeace, etc.

Until ALL of those groups (as listed by both of us) are abolished, the problems will continue.

On the contrary...the day the last of those groups are abolished, our real troubles will have just begun.

 

[chris in va]

political, religious, or socio-economical
agenda behind it.

That makes sense, and really is the reason why I posted for a better clarification of the word. We all know how frustrating it is having these random killings going on.

 

[RNB65]

On the contrary...the day the last of those groups are abolished, our real troubles will have just begun.

Well said. I could not agree more.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall, from The Friends of Voltaire, 1906.
-

 

[Seancass]

you're kidding right? You're gonna come in here and talk about gun control being the answer? Really?

yeah, i thought that was rather obvious. especially since terrorist have shied away from firearms in the US because they dont need them. bullets kill about 1 person at a time. thats WAY too slow for terrorism.

and clearly i was wrong about this thread getting locked. I guess talking about certain fun subjects closely related to guns isnt ok, but we can always discuss more terrorism to keep the foil hats in place.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Seems to me that the concept of the various nutcases and racist organizations are looked on as more of a threat than Islamic Terrorism by some only because our military and Law enforcement have managed to make a significant Islamic terrorist operation in the US almost impossible for the last six years.

The nutcase next door will always been more of a danger to you on a personal level than the mass muderer you only read about, but its rather self centered to believe that people who plot the deaths of thousands and perhaps millions of Americans and the civilian populations of our allies are not a major threat to our citizens only because you personally aren't likely to be in one of the targeted zones.

Like they say, if you do the job properly sometimes no one knows that you've done anything at all. That goes double for protecting the citizenry.
The Soviets never dropped any A Bombs on the US but that doesn't mean they were not a threat. They sent long range bombers on missions to probe our air defenses on a regular basis and tried to construct hidden airfields in South America for the express purpose of destroying our nation.
They failed but they were always a threat.


Iran still ends its government functions with a prayer for the death of "the Great Satan" which they believe to be The United States of America.