Texas 30.06 Sign legality?

[captainofiron]

So I was with the Wife at a Kay Jewelers in the outlet mall in El Paso, Texas. They had both of the entrances open with the doors chocked open.

We walked in, I was carrying as usual, we proceeded to look around. I got tired of being in there, and I walked out toward the food court, and I decided to wait a little for my Wife and my mother in law to come out so I stood next to the entrance, and I see this sign



I got really irritated, both that they would put up this sign, as well as take a stance against gun rights.

BUT is this sign legal?

I am going to write Kay and tell them that I will no longer do business with them, I use to always go to them for presents for my wife, but no more.

 

[jbkebert]

It's actually the 30.06 code. Only in TX would they make a penal code named after one of the most popular cartridges ever.

 

[brboyer]

In all respects, execpt for Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(B)(iii)

is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

looks OK to me.

 

[DJW]

I believe it fullfills all the necessary requirements...............i.e. size of print, proper wording, etc. You can be asked to leave it found carrying but not arrested. I don't agree with their stance either but it is their establishment, their wishes, their rules.

 

[Flintknapper]

It is a technicality...but the official 30.06 sign has a contrasting background color (to the lettering). It might be argued that the clear glass background does not provide the same. Although...I would certainly consider their efforts to be following the spirit of the law...and treat it as binding.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/signposting.htm

Concealed Handgun Licensing

Sign Posting

PROHIBITING HANDGUNS IN A BUSINESS OR OTHER ENTITY
In order to provide notice that entry on property by a license holder with a concealed handgun is forbidden, Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(A) requires that a written communication contain the following language:

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."
"CONFORME A LA SECCIÓN 30.06 DEL CÔDIGO PENAL (TRASPASAR PORTANDO ARMAS DE FUEGO) PERSONAS CON LICENCIA BAJO DEL SUB-CAPITULO H, CAPITULO 411, CODIGO DE GOBIERNO (LEY DE PORTAR ARMAS), NO DEBEN ENTRAR A ESTA PROPIEDAD PORTANDO UN ARMA DE FUEGO."

Download language

Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(B) further states that a sign must meet the following requirements:

includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

Please note that while the language provided above may be downloaded for convenience, it does not meet the requirements of Section 30.06(c)(3)(B) and may not be used as a sign.


You can contact the Concealed Handgun Licensing at :

REGULATORY SERVICES DIVISION MSC 0245
TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
PO BOX 4087
AUSTIN TX 78773-0245
Phone: (512) 424-7293 or (512) 424-7294
Helpline: (800) 224-5744

 

[blutarsky]

They had both of the entrances open with the doors chocked open.

i think the above is the main problem here -- if the doors were propped open such that you couldn't see what was on them when normally entering the store then it's a bit unfair. you're not meant to have to play detective to search for any possible signage, it's supposed to be obvious. but i agree with the above, it seems legit and if i saw it then i'd stay clear. the problem you had, of course, was that you couldn't see it in the manner they had it hidden so you got fooled into entering. shame on them

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Only applies to Handguns, can you open carry a Rifle in Texas? Won't that be fun to walk into Kays with one!

 

[Guillermo]

that looks like textbook legal...the propped doors made for a defense

 

[IBEWBULL]

I think I would inform them of my choice to do business elsewhere.
I would also ask them if they thought the sign would deter robery of encourage it.
I also would let them know the fact that advertising to the criminal that he need not worry about armed citizens in that specific place of business.
They don't really want money from a gun toter so pass it by.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You can be asked to leave it found carrying but not arrested.

I don't believe this is correct. The legal 30.06 sign serves in place of direct verbal communication. So you are carrying despite being informed that you are not allowed to carry in that business which means you are trespassing.

If a sign is not posted, you can be asked to leave or at least remove the gun from the business. Refusal to do so can result in legal consequences.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I don't believe this is correct. The legal 30.06 sign serves in place of direct verbal communication. So you are carrying despite being informed that you are not allowed to carry in that business which means you are trespassing.

Right. The sign is your notice, carry anyway and you are subject to arrest immediately.

As for this sign, I don't believe I'd put my permit at risk by counting on the propped open door defense.

And honestly, I don't spend money with businesses that don't want me anyway.

Only applies to Handguns, can you open carry a Rifle in Texas?

Yes actually. It would be perfectly legal to open carry a long gun into the mall. You can even concealed carry a long gun if you can figure out how.

However, you're almost certain to run up against PC42.01, Disorderly Conduct which says in part:

displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

You're going to have a very difficult time convincing a jury that carrying a rifle into a jewelry store a week before Christmas wasn't calculated to alarm

 

[captainofiron]

I was figuring it to be a legal sign, the parts that bothered me were that they were taking an anti gun stance, as well as the sign not being visible upon entering, as well as it being hard to read with the white letters on top of mirror tinted glass.

But you guys are right, if they dont want my money ill go somewhere else.

 

[daorhgih]

Great! First it's "Toys-Я-Us", and now ...

... yet another, national, anti-2A establishment for RKBA believers to shun.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Great! First it's "Toys-Я-Us", and now ...

Right, if you look closely at most of the major manufacturing or sales corporations, they limit 2nd amendment rights at either the employee and/or public level. So depending on your level of RKBA emphasis, you can be sort of stuck.

Heck, there are even gun stores that won't allow customers to conceal carry loaded guns. Go figure.

 

[Ron James]

I think it is a non issue, It's their business, they can do what ever is legal. They are not infringing on your rights, they are giving you a choice. If you do not agree with them, good grief, don't eat there. You have the freedom of speech, does that give you the right to yell fire in a crowed theater? or is that infringing on your rights also. And before you start, I've been a NRA life member for 45 years. I had my own business for quite a few years, I paid the rent,my office. I made the rules. That the way the world turns. If you didn't like my office or my rules, then leave and don't let the door hit in the butt when you leave. BTW, I don't even let those signs bother me, I carry a pocket gun and I am a believer in " concealed means concealed ", no one ever knows I'm armed ( most times not even my wife ) and I just go my merry way.no fuss, no muss and no whining. Am I breaking the law, maybe, but no on ever knows about it. That's just my humble opinion and others may not agree with it, I really think some of these posters sound like high school kids that have been kicked out of the school dance for drinking beer in the boysroom.

 

[Quoheleth]

Captainofiron, if you travel to Texas again, a great resource of places that post 30.06 signage is http://texas3006.com/. The on negative to the site is that people post and then crawfish with "Well, I'm not sure if it's legal or not." But, at least you have a hint of forwarning before you travel.

And it's not just ToysRUs, folks. You'll note that in Texas, the AMC movie theater chain is tops on the Wall of Shame. Many of us chose to go to other movie theaters than AMC for that very reason.

Q

 

[BarkingSquirrel]

Stupid question: Would the fact that the door contained atleast one spelling error "TH S" instead of "THIS" invalidate it since its not what the law says has to be displayed?

 

[jfrey]

M. D. Anderson hospital in Houston has same sign and color scheme. The problem is that it is on a sliding door at the entrance and when the door is open, as it is a lot with patients coming and going, you can't see it because it is covered up by other signs on the stationary door. When I took in-laws for checkups, I figured they would have a sign so I left my pistol well hidden in the car. The security guard inside did a double take on my safari vest and I was just waiting for him to say something, but he didn't. I guess they just refuse to admit there are no sacred places where crime doesn't happen.

 

[HankB]

Stupid question: Would the fact that the door contained atleast one spelling error "TH S" instead of "THIS" invalidate it since its not what the law says has to be displayed?

In my opinion, yes . . . but I'm not the judge who'll be making that ruling should you be accused of violating the letter of the law.

Note that Kay Jewelers is owned by the same parent company that owns Jared Galleria of Jewelry, another notoriously anti-CHL jewelry . . . two companies to avoid.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Stupid question: Would the fact that the door contained atleast one spelling error "TH S" instead of "THIS" invalidate it since its not what the law says has to be displayed?

What do YOU think your average jury member would say to that?

I think you would be toast for using that as a defense.

 

[gatopardo]

Private property

As long as it is their property ( even if they rent), they have the right to state whether or not they allow firearms in their property.

So the sign is legal, in fact all they have to do is to post a no guns allowed sign:


So for starters, a trespassing charge, the gun taken away probably.

We have to remember we have the same right to allow or not guns in our own property.

 

[TexasRifleman]

So the sign is legal, in fact all they have to do is to post a no guns allowed sign:

The OP specifically asked about Texas. The law in Texas is such that the sign you posted would have NO weight of law behind it.

The law here is very specific on what the sign must say, and how it must be displayed.

In many states yes, the generic gun buster signs mean something, but not in Texas.

 

[brboyer]

As long as it is their property ( even if they rent), they have the right to state whether or not they allow firearms in their property.

So the sign is legal, in fact all they have to do is to post a no guns allowed sign:


So for starters, a trespassing charge, the gun taken away probably.

We have to remember we have the same right to allow or not guns in our own property.

You do not understand either the 30-06 law or trespass law in Texas.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

My lawyer says Kays sign will not hold up in court due to the lack of a Contrast color as required by Law. But I am not willing to be a test case so I just shop else where.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

My lawyer says Kays sign will not hold up in court due to the lack of a Contrast color as required by Law. But I am not willing to be a test case so I just shop else where.

Assuming that was the only sign, I would be more inclined to go with the fact that it is not readily visible (display not conspicuous with door open) than I would want to argue the contrasting colors. Like you, I would not want to be the test case for it. In looking closely at the letters, I am curious if they are actually the required 1" in height. They probably are, but if so, just barely as near as I can tell

The glass of the door is part of the sign. The glass will have some color to it and that color won't be white and since the white letters stand out, they do contrast with the color of the glass. The windows also appear to be tinted and the letters contrast with the tint which also isn't white. The law does not say that the colors of the sign must be vibrant nor does it stay by how much difference in color constitutes being "contrast."

If the issue of color and contrast are to be argued in court, I would bet that the question will come down to whether or not there is enough of a contrast with the letters and the colors in the glass/tinting for the wording be "conspicuous and clearly visible." If the door isn't turned where you can't see the sign, then the lettering is conspicuous and clearly visible.

Of course, this may not be their only sign.