Texas CHL question?

[DWS1117]

My wife works as a bank teller. Last week they had a customer who attempted to use his CHL his primary ID. She said that the DL number is printed on the card. Neither her or her manager were sure as to the law with reguards to this. She asked me and I didn't have an answer. I just took my CHL class last weekend but this never came upand I don't have my book handy. Can someone offer some assistance on this matter?

 

[Smoke]

The law with regards to what specifically?

It is a legal photo I.D. Good enough to cash a check.

(Although I wouldn't flash mine around if I had any other I.D.)

 

[Matt G]

It is a State-issued official identification card, issued by the EXACT SAME AGENCY that issues Texas Drivers' Licenses and Texas Identification Cards. Note that Drivers' Licenses have a primary purpose of licensing the bearer to drive a car on a public roadway. The use of the card as a form of personal identification is secondary, and purely incidental. Consider the title of the two cards: "Driver License" (not 'Driver's License', though we all say it that way), and "Concealed Handgun License".

Given that they are both qualified for, issued by, and reviewed by the Texas Department Of Public Safety, I would have to say, yes, the Texas C.H.L. would have to be considered an official form of identification. As a L.E.O., if I were presented with one, I would treat it as such.

--M.G.

 

[DWS1117]

Thanks for the information.

Smoke

I agree. When I finally get mine, It will presented along with my DL when asked to do so by a LEO, but it will not be used as my primary ID. The fewer people that know that I might or might not be packing the better.

 

[Bily Lovec]

I agree it should be, just because of the items you have to submit to receive it...
a couple of years ago, I used mine at my credit union, the teller refused to accept it saying it wasnt a valid form of ID, I asked for the manager, who told me the same thing, said they didnt accept it, my response was, "his ignorance obviously knows no bounds"...

 

[Art Eatman]

I get a kick out of using my CHL as ID. Every now and then, I find someone who actually reads what it says. Sometimes I have to point out that the DL # is also on it.

I love to watch the play of expressions, particularly when I point out that just having it means the FBI says I'm as good a Good Guy as any policeman. There's usually a grin when I ask if the teller's boss can make that statement.

Art

 

[westex]

Art
I'm with you. I love using mine for ID purposes. Only once out of about 6 or 7 times have I had anyone question using it as a photo ID. It gave me the opportunity to educate the "assistant night manager in charge of check cashing operations".

 

[JohnKSa]

Why you might not want to use a CHL as an ID...

My wife's CHL instructor told this story as related by a previous student.

In TX, when carrying, one must present the CHL along with the DL when an LEO asks for the DL.

To make sure she didn't forget, one CHL holder taped her CHL to the back of her DL using double-sided tape.

A few weeks after the class, she was in an upscale mall (North Park, I think) and wrote a check in a shop. When asked for her ID, she handed over the DL/CHL combo without thinking much about it. It got into the clerk's hand with the CHL side up.

The clerk had never seen a CHL before and all she saw was the word "HANDGUN". Being of the clueless sort, all she could figure out was that this must be some sort of odd hold-up note so she screamed that they were being robbed.

The CHL holder immediately ducked behind the counter and drew her pistol while looking around for the robber. This, naturally enough, contributed GREATLY to the consternation of the clerk.

Things eventually got straightened out, but not before a lot of adrenalin was wasted all the way around...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

CHL is NOT legal photo identification!

When I checked with DPS last year on this issue, I was told that the CHL does NOT count as a form of legal identification even though it is issued by the same folks who do the DLs and IDs for the state. Why is it you think that you must present your DL or Texas ID with your CHL? It is because the CHL is not actual identification.

In fact, DPS does not consider a CHL as either a primary or even a secondary form of identification at all! A CHL only is considered as 'supporting identification' along with other such notable documents as these others...
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/IdRequirements.htm

1. school records;
2. insurance policy (at least two years old);
3. vehicle title;
4. military records;
5. unexpired military dependant identification card;
6. original or certified copy of marriage license or divorce decree;
7. voter registration card;
8. Social Security card;
9. pilot's license;
10. concealed handgun license;
11. Texas driver license temporary receipt;
12. expired driver license or identification certificate issued by another state, territory, District of Columbia, or Canadian province that is within two years of the expiration date.
13. a foreign passport (with or without a United States Visa); or
14. a consular document issued by a state or national government.

So DWS1117 and others, if you are willing to take a report card, insurance policy, etc. as identification, then sure, it is great.

A CHL is NOT a legal picture identification in Texas as per the department that issues DLs, IDs, and CHLs.

Legally, maybe a note from your mother would carry more weight? Close, but probably not.

 

[Harrison]

So, now I'm confused. Is there any such thing as LEGAL identification? If you don't have a DL or a state (Texas-non DL) issued ID, then what do you need? Anything?

I've just read a post on another forum where a social security card wasn't sufficient as ID, but a major credit card was!

Seems that what is sufficient is whatever the business or agency is willing to accept as identification. If I were still an LEO (they didn't have CHL in Texas then) I would accept the CHL as an ID. I have used my CHL at the airline ticket counter (pre 9/11) to ID myself.

I doubt that his LT would have approved, but I watched a security officer at the nuclear station where I work accept a lady's Sam's card, because it had her picture on it.

Double naught, I did note that number 10 on your list was "concealed handgun license."

 

[Blackhawk]

Great story, John.

But

The CHL holder immediately ducked behind the counter and drew her pistol while looking around for the robber.

That's not a good thing to do. In fact, she brought lethal force into the scenario without knowledge that she or anybody else was in danger which would justify it.

Glad she ducked that "bullet"....

 

[Art Eatman]

Aw, well. I've always been enamoured of a line from Edward Abbey's "The Brave Cowboy", where he has the protagonist say, "ID card? I don't need an ID card. I know who I am."

, Art

 

[DigMe]

The CHL holder immediately ducked behind the counter and drew her pistol while looking around for the robber. This, naturally enough, contributed GREATLY to the consternation of the clerk.

Yeah, and Proctor and Gamble is owned by Satanists, Bill Gates will pay you cash if you forward this email and Pepsi is putting out a new can with the pledge of allegiance minus the words "under God."

What's my point? Sounds like an urban legend. We hear a lot of silly things that people tell as if they are truth but this particular story, although possibly true, sounds like urban legend to me.

brad cook

 

[Johnny Guest]

Art Eatman wrote:

I've always been enamoured of a line from Edward Abbey's "The Brave Cowboy", . . .

DingDingDingDing It's BONUS QUESTION TIME, Boys and Girls! Who can tell us the title of the motion picture adaptation of that novel?

AND - - -For the double throwdown EXTRA CREDIT award, who was the star?



Johnny

 

[Thumper]

Lonely are the Brave starring Spartacus.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Harrison,
Is there such a thing as legal identification? Sure. It is the identification that provides proof of identity.

Don't confuse what some businesses do, such as accepting a credit card, social security card, etc. as being representative of legal identification. That are simply cards with names and numbers on them. There is nothing on the card that ties it directly to the carrier of the card.

It is not sufficient to have some sort of card with your picture on it either. Remember trying to get a false ID back in high school? There are places that will make picture ID cards for you, in pretty much any name you want.

There are a varietyof transactions that require a legal form of identification and these are what are needed to PROVE identity.

From the same DPS web site...

There are three categories of documents that may be presented to establish proof of identity. Every original applicant must present:
one piece of primary identification; or
one piece of secondary identification plus two pieces of support identification; or
two pieces of secondary identification.

Check the web site yourself and you can read up on exactly what primary identification is versus secondary, versus supporting.

The reason why a CHL does not constitute an actual proof of identity is that part of the materials required in the application process are not contolled by DPS. You do not get fingerprinted and photographed at a DPS office where they then take your materials and submit them to Austin for approval. In other words, there is no verifiable continuity between your CHL class, finger prints, and photos and the arrival of the information in Austin. It would not be a terriby difficult matter to switch out pictures or maybe the finger print card.

Texas CHLs are simply licenses with pictures and are not recognized by the agency granting CHLs (DPS) as being primary identification that proves identity.

 

[AZ Husker]

DNS (or anyone)...Just curious. Why does Texas put your Driver License number on your carry permits? They have nothing in common. What if you don't drive? Here in Arizona it's a fairly easy task to get driving records. Do you folks worry about all your "priviledges" being linked together?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't know the specific reason why, but I will guess. The DL or ID number is put on the CHL as further proof/connection that the CHL is actually meant to be connected with the person presenting it and the CHL itself is not primary identification. You are required by law to present the CHL and DL or ID with the CHL when dealing in a formal capacity with officers, such as when they pull you over for a traffic infraction. If you are carrying concealed and only have your CHL with no ID, then you are not operating within the stipulations of the CHL. If you are not carrying, it does not matter if you have your CHL with your DL or ID.

What if you don't drive? This got handled a long time ago since so many businesses require identification for things like cashing checks, buying guns, etc. So, Texas has an ID card that is just like the DL with the except that it does not grant any rights to drive. It is legal identification that is 'primary' like the DL and so it serves as proof of identity. The same credentials needed to substantiate who you are to the DPS when you go to get a DL are needed to get an ID from DPS.

 

[AZ Husker]

What if I don't drive and don't want a state ID card? A passport is universal identification. A US Military ID is certainly legal identification. I wonder if Texas would put those numbers on a permit if that's what is used for ID. It just concerns me to numerically link two separate and unrelated legal forms, both with certain access through public records.

 

[DigMe]

What if I don't drive and don't want a state ID card?

Then no CHL for you. Gotta have one or the other. It's probably strictly for their convenience.

brad cook

 

[JohnKSa]

Yeah, and Proctor and Gamble is owned by Satanists, Bill Gates will pay you cash if you forward this email and Pepsi is putting out a new can with the pledge of allegiance minus the words "under God."

http://chltraining.com/

One of the instructors at the above facility told the story if you want to try to verify it.

There are three instructors listed. Roma Skinner is the constable of the district. Ray Allen is the Texas Legislature Representative who drafted the initial CHL bill. I don't know the third person.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

.....I was told that the CHL does NOT count as a form of legal identification even though it is issued by the same folks who do the DLs and IDs for the state.

Ok, then I guess I'll have to use my Sam's Club membership card with my pixelated likeness on it. Of course, it's anyone's guess whether it's a photo of a monkey or a hairy '55 Buick.

That'll sure confuse them when I cash checks at a strange bank.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[DigMe]

One of the instructors at the above facility told the story if you want to try to verify it.

Why would I care to do that?

brad cook

 

[tiberius]

Roma Skinner is the constable of the district. Ray Allen is the Texas Legislature Representative who drafted the initial CHL bill. I don't know the third person.

These are the guys I got my CHL training (and renewal) from. It was probably Skinner He's a real goofball with lots of funny stories. He tells a lot of stories used as parables that IMHO may or may NOT be true.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

After spending considerable time, Swamp Bunny, I believe my SAMs card show a picture of a monkey, or maybe some other non-human primate, but definitely not a Buick.

AZ Husker, what if you don't want a Tx DL or ID? I don't know. Maybe you do have to have one or the other, but I don't recall any specifics. Passports and military IDs may be proof of identity, but they may not be the proof required under Texas law to accompany the CHL. Maybe somebody can track down that information by going to the Texas DPS web site and searching through all the information they have there?

(hint, hint)

Keep in mind that the CHL and your DL or ID from Texas are not all that unrelated as they are all administered by the Texas Department of Public Safety and involve background checks (although very cursory for current wants or warrants when it comes to getting or renewing you DL).

Not to worry, sir, you won't be getting a Texas CHL anyway if you are living in Arizona. Texas does not grant out of state CHLs to people in states that have their own concealed handgun licensing except under extremely rare circumstances.