Texas Law May Ban One-handed Folders

[Lone Star]

I have been told that Texas statute Chapter S46.01 (b) may allow police to take a typical one-handed pivot -open knife, like an Applegate -Fairbairn folder or Benchmade No. 710, and see if they can partly open it and sling the blade open with a heavy flick of the wrist. If they can, they may arrest.

This is evidently the part of the law that defines "switchblades".

I am NOT referring here to Kershaw's "assisted opening" models which are spring powered open once the blade has been opened partially.

If this is true, even a Buck No. 110 with a worn joint could be slung open by some cop looking to make an arrest for someone carrying a switchblade. The law uses the term opened "by the application of centrifugal force". But I've heard that police will especially try the test to see if they can connive to arrest for carrying any knife that can be opened by one hand, whether the intent of the design is to be opened by gravity or not.

This is very dangerous to the ordinary consumer carrying such a knife, if a cop decides to try to "get" him, when the citizen had no idea that he was carrying a legal "switchblade".

Can anyone, especially a Texas police officer, comment?

Lone Star

 

[JShirley]

Police always have the option of loose interpretation.

Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom...talk to your politicos re badly worded law.

John

 

[strambo]

Almost any folding knife of a decent size can be opened with a hard flick of the wrist. The limiting factors are (in no particlular order) blade weight, friction at the joint and technique. If you are an otherwise law abiding citizen, I wouldn't wory about it. If your being arrested for drug posession and they tack this on...oh, well.

What would be really interesting is what if the officer couldn't flick it open on the first try? How many chances does he get to "prove" it's a "swichblade" as defined by that silly law? "No, wait, I've almost got it, see it almost locked out that time as soon as it does, book him!"

Lonestar, you need to read the exact language of the statute for yourself and not go by what someone told you...laws are confusing and officers mis-interpret often. I have read the pertinent self-defense laws and weapons laws for my State many times just to be sure and still reference them on occasion. The wording is usually vague and sometimes silly.

In Oregon, possession of "armor piercing" ammo is illegal. However, the definition of "armor piercing ammo" in the statute is any HANDGUN ammunition coated with teflon, or a simular substance designed to defeat an armored vest. (The wording may not be exact, I'm in Iraq, my ORS book isn't) The point is real-world AP rifle ammo is perfectly legal in this State and fantasy-world teflon handgun "cop-killer" bullets aren't.

 

[Lone Star]

I did read the statute, and it seems vague. What I was hoping to learn is how courts and police interpret the law in regard to that bit about opening the knife via centrifugal force.

I'm sure it was written vaguely to "allow police discretion". This can be a dangerous thing, if an officer doesn't like knives, even on respectable people. Many ordinary people in this state carry those one-handed opening folders, and they may be at legal risk. Quite a few use pocket clips, exposing the knives to public view, which can attract a cop's attention.

Many modern officers ARE minorities, and students are often taught in school as they're raised these days that all "weapons" are bad. This can lead to unfortunate circumstances...

Lone Star

 

[LawDog]

Actually, a lot of us are working to un-do the switchblade law.

Ever seen a 'Biker Flick'?

Take any folding knife. In the closed position, hold it by the back of the blade, pivot down. Now, with a firm grip, flick your wrist down. Voila! You have just opened your pocket knife by the application of centrifugal force.

In other words, any folding knife is a switchblade in Texas. :banghead:

Bad law. Bad, bad law.

LawDog

 

[JShirley]

The law doesn't say "designed" to be opened by cent. force?

J

 

[pete f]

so does that mean a spyderco is illegal in tx?

I mean that is why the hole is there, isn;t it?

 

[R.H. Lee]

How about those boxcutters with the replaceable razor blades that slide in and out of the handle??? They're nearly as quick to deploy, aren't they?

 

[Lone Star]

Law Dog-

No, I don't watch biker films, but the technique you describe was also used by fictional spy Matt Helm in Donald Hamilton's books some years back, when he carried a Buck No. 110. (He employed several types of folding knives in that series.) I tried it once or twice, and concluded that it was too risky. One might get cut or lose the knife. Doubtless, others have practiced more at their own risk, and may well have become proficient at this.

JShirley-

No, the statute, in the printing that I have, doesn't mention the crucial matter of design. It just refers to whether centrifugal force can be used.

Pete-

YES! That would impact a Spyderco. Because the portion of the blade with the hole stands up so high above the handle, that knife is relatively easy to open that way. Much depends on how "easy" the joint works on a particular knife, though.

It does indeed seem to be a very bad law, if enforced. I'm sure that many decent policemen just use it when they see a valid need, but it does put the public at legal risk if an officer on a power trip (and there are some, on every force) gets carried away.

Lone Star

 

[dev_null]

That's whack. My Kershaw Leek is legal in a nanny state like MD or CA but not in Texas? Whiskey Tango Fargo, over?

 

[LawDog]

The law doesn't say "designed" to be opened by cent. force?

Nope.

(11) "Switchblade knife" means any knife that has a
blade that folds, closes, or retracts into the handle or sheath, and
that:
(A) opens automatically by pressure applied to a
button or other device located on the handle; or
(B) opens or releases a blade from the handle or
sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of centrifugal
force.

Actually, the Kershaw is kind of a gray area. You may notice that there is a spring that prevents a Kershaw from opening, so it's bloody difficult to open with a biker flick, and since there's nothing 'located on the handle' to open the Kershaw, in the technical spirit of the law it's totally legal.

I'd check with your local D.A., though.

LawDog

 

[dev_null]

Actually, the Kershaw is kind of a gray area. You may notice that there is a spring that prevents a Kershaw from opening, so it's bloody difficult to open with a biker flick, and since there's nothing 'located on the handle' to open the Kershaw, in the technical spirit of the law it's totally legal.

Except that it can be opened by a simple press of the assist.

Now, about that Lawdog Files book... *drums fingers impatiently*

 

[LawDog]

Yes, but the assist is mounted on the blade. The law specifically states a button or other device located on the handle.

Like I said, though, check with your local prosecutor.

LawDog

 

[hso]

While it looks like the law would make any of the liner/frame/axis/etc. lock folders into "switchblades" (because almost any lock other than the traditional back lock can be flung open under centrifugal force with enough technique and strength) the specific question asked was would it make a knife a switchblade if "they can partly open it and sling the blade open". Since the statute says, "opens or releases a blade from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of centrifugal
force.", the specific act of opening the knife manually and then completing the opening by centrifugal force wouldn't fit. It was "opened" manually, but was completed by centrifugal force.

Regardless, the TX law is written so that the person carrying any knife could be made to be guilty of breaking the law just by having any folder that would open.

BTW, I can open the various assisted openers by centrifugal force without touching the blade.

 

[pete f]

I agree, a lousy law, I just went through my whole collection and only two of the knives (one a buck stockman and the other a gerber from the old brass and wood generation) that would not open that way. IE grab the blade and give the knife a firm snap of the wrist, in fact, seeing a Hells Angel (many years ago) do this with his old buck 110 was what got me into carrying a buck folding hunter.

 

[c_yeager]

(because almost any lock other than the traditional back lock can be flung open under centrifugal force with enough technique and strength)

You can actually do this with a lock back too, the trick is that you grab the blade and flick the handle in a downwards direction, this works an virtually any knife that provides enough purchase for you to grip the exposed portion of the blade between thumb and forefinger. So, i guess that leaves us with swiss army knives from now on.

 

[Lone Star]

This scared me so much that I checked my knives, too. The Puma 921 and the No. 943, a traditional German lockblade "hunter" with a spear blade and a saw blade, plus corkscrew, don't seem to have enough blade exposed above the handle to let a cop swing them open. The Repro Remington 1306 is difficult.

I'm hoping that a traditional folder with a nail nick and conventional lock won't tempt the officer to try too hard if the person with the knife isn't in trouble for something else and looks clean-cut. I'm thinking that initial contact for most of us would be if we had a traffic accident or were stopped for a minor traffic violation, and the cop started looking for anything else he could cause trouble over. Some like to "fish"... Many stores hire off duty officers, too, and if one saw a knife sticking out of a pocket and checked a customer, it could get grim.

Worrying about this sort of thing doesn't help citizen-police relations much.

Lone Star

 

[hifi]

Tyranny will come in the form of badly worded laws. Look where we are already.

 

[mec]

I believe the centrifical (sp) force thing came in with the revision of 1979. Before that, lock blades were illegal. I used to carry a Buck 110 that would break your wrist before it would fling open by centripedal acceleration. It was easy to side-thumb it open very quickly and with practice, you could avoid slicing away a portion of thumb.

The older texas laws were worded to give total authority to the police who could call just about anything a dirk, dagger, poniard or bowie knife. Presently, the mainstream is not a "knife culture" and it is considered very yucky to cut somebody up- shooting is probably more acceptible-at least to whatever degree any sort of mayhem wins the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.

 

[raz-0]

Well, that pretty much covers every locking folder I have run into with the exception of my leatherman.

For a while I thought the spyderco kerambit might be immune to being flicked open, but once it is broken in a little, it can be done with practice. If I get the bonus of being able to open it slightly, then all bets are off.

The main reason my leatherman wave is undoable is because of the mass of the grip. Imparting enough momentum to the blade imparts enough momentum to the grip that I can't hold on.

Most quality folders are "flickable" with very little effort.

 

[GuyMontag]

.talk to your politicos re badly worded law.

IMHO, the problem is not that the law is 'badly worded'. The problem is that a law regulating the possession or carry of knives exists at all. If you can regulate or ban or whatever - switchblades - then why not kitchen knives?

My variant:

Talk to you politicians re: totally silliy law.

Am I talking out of my hat here, as usual?

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I'm with LawDog. We need to ditch the archaic laws regarding knives in this state. We can't even 'legally' carry a Bowie knife (or a dirk) here...and it specifically names it as such in the statute. Heresy!

Me, I stay out of trouble and carry a Benchmade automatic...but I didn't tell you that.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[stealthmode]

centrifugal force

is that not an imaginary force?

 

[BryanP]

is that not an imaginary force?

For the pedantic substitute "angular acceleration" in place of "centrifugal force."

 

[CatsDieNow]

Does it really say "centrifugal"?

I always thought that "centrifugal" force was the ficticious force, and "centripetal" is the one where the force is pulling an object toward the center of a circular path?

Edit: Well, dang it. I was beat to the punch.