Texas Law May Ban One-handed Folders
- Thread starter Lone Star
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MacPelto
Member
OK, you fine legal eagles, help me read this right...
I read...leaving out the seemingly irrelevant parts
§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
and 46.02 says
§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person
commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under
this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or
issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.
Now, the statutes seem to say that if you have your CHL on you, and a handgun of the appropriate type, that you can carry an "illegal knife" and/or "club" as well, since if you have both license and firearm, then the entire section (46.02) doesn't apply. Note that 46.15 doesn't say that only the handgun part of 46.02 doesn't apply, but that the entire section doesn't apply.
Am I close, or reading wishfully?
Mac
I read...leaving out the seemingly irrelevant parts
§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
and 46.02 says
§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person
commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under
this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or
issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.
Now, the statutes seem to say that if you have your CHL on you, and a handgun of the appropriate type, that you can carry an "illegal knife" and/or "club" as well, since if you have both license and firearm, then the entire section (46.02) doesn't apply. Note that 46.15 doesn't say that only the handgun part of 46.02 doesn't apply, but that the entire section doesn't apply.
Am I close, or reading wishfully?
Mac
MacPelto
Member
Oh nononononono....I don't want to be any kind of case, let alone the test kind!
Besides, I don't even own an auto - played with one at the gunstore once, and the thing nearly went flying when I opened it! Not interested, legal or not - I'm looking at this in a purely academic light.OK, then switchblades are out since they aren't "illegal knives", but does this mean that bowie knives, swords and spears(?!) are still on the table?
Mac
Any of the following are considered "Illegal knives" in Texas:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.
Good luck trying to conceal a sword or spear.
So is this just another "Jose Crow" law to keep knives away from mexicans? I think it is, Virginia has the same thing, apparently a Glock 17 two revolvers and about 40 spare rounds is A-okay, but if I top it off with a four inch fixed blade double edged knife then i'm BAAAAD! Oh, the horror. In the least these states need to exempt CCW holders, at the most, how about criminalize the act and not worry about switchblades until someone gets cut?
A lot of state laws seem to say stuff about "dirks", by which I'm thinking they mean a double-edged knife designed for stabbing.
Interestingly enough, the original verbiage seems to have been copied from some of the first gun control legislation- the Mississippi "Black Codes", which prohibits "fire-arms of any kind, or any ammunition, dirk or bowie knife"*.
*"Certain Offenses of Freedmen" (29 Nov 1865)
John
Interestingly enough, the original verbiage seems to have been copied from some of the first gun control legislation- the Mississippi "Black Codes", which prohibits "fire-arms of any kind, or any ammunition, dirk or bowie knife"*.
*"Certain Offenses of Freedmen" (29 Nov 1865)
John
wally
Member
Go to the Texas Renaissance Festival in Oct/Nov. You'll see lots of folks carrying knives with over 5" blades, along with dirks, swords, clubs, maces, spears, pikes, etc. Lots of LEO walking around, alcohol served and consumed and as far as I know nobody hassled for "carrying illeagal weapons".
--wally.
Edit: as to switchblades being "prohibited weapons", again its a rare gun show where I don't see a variety of switch blades for sale (and being sold). LEO in uniform walking around abound, I've even seen a few actually buy knives.
I have seen Hispanics hassled on the Galveston seawall for having a machette in the back of the truck. Jose Crow seems to about sum it up.
--wally.
Edit: as to switchblades being "prohibited weapons", again its a rare gun show where I don't see a variety of switch blades for sale (and being sold). LEO in uniform walking around abound, I've even seen a few actually buy knives.
I have seen Hispanics hassled on the Galveston seawall for having a machette in the back of the truck. Jose Crow seems to about sum it up.
That's because of this provision:
Texas Penal Code § 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
...
(e) The provisions of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of an illegal knife do not apply to an individual carrying a bowie knife or a sword used in a historical demonstration or in a ceremony in which the knife or sword is significant to the performance of the ceremony.
That's because of this provision:
Texas Penal Code § 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(5) a switchblade knife;
...
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an antique or curio; or
...
Don't get caught carrying a switchblade on the street though.
I HAVE seen cops at gun shows go up to people selling switchblades and brass knuckles and shut them down. I think they were also arrested, although I wasn't about to go over and ask.
As for Jose Crow, I think blacks are an even greater concern where edged weapons are concerned. But that doesn't mean that the laws won't be enforced against whites, and MANY cops are now non-white, especially in the DPS highway patrol. That's been the case since Democrat Ann Richards was governor. And a lot of these black cops work off-duty in stores, where they might well want to examine any knife they see clipped to a pocket or worn in a belt pouch. By and large, I think they are brought up thinking of guns and knives purely in a negative sense, which is reflective of how such items are used in their culture. Schools also encourage this image about all "weapons", and we have a generation of kids now becoming adults who have had this indoctrination.
Lone Star
As for Jose Crow, I think blacks are an even greater concern where edged weapons are concerned. But that doesn't mean that the laws won't be enforced against whites, and MANY cops are now non-white, especially in the DPS highway patrol. That's been the case since Democrat Ann Richards was governor. And a lot of these black cops work off-duty in stores, where they might well want to examine any knife they see clipped to a pocket or worn in a belt pouch. By and large, I think they are brought up thinking of guns and knives purely in a negative sense, which is reflective of how such items are used in their culture. Schools also encourage this image about all "weapons", and we have a generation of kids now becoming adults who have had this indoctrination.
Lone Star
Hello Everyone and MacPelto,
I telephoned the legal department of the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) and asked about the legality of carrying of "clubs" and "illegal knives" if one was carrying a licensed concealed handgun. The woman said, "I can see where you are seeing that in the statute, but I think you would have a very hard time convince a DPS officer of that interpretation."
Once I explained that I trained in the Filipino martial arts and wanted to carry a expandable baton to avoid the use of the handgun she understood the question.
I'm thinking about gathing some support and pursuing a change in the law for the next legislative session so we can have the same freedoms as Florida CCW holders enjoy.
I telephoned the legal department of the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) and asked about the legality of carrying of "clubs" and "illegal knives" if one was carrying a licensed concealed handgun. The woman said, "I can see where you are seeing that in the statute, but I think you would have a very hard time convince a DPS officer of that interpretation."
Once I explained that I trained in the Filipino martial arts and wanted to carry a expandable baton to avoid the use of the handgun she understood the question.
I'm thinking about gathing some support and pursuing a change in the law for the next legislative session so we can have the same freedoms as Florida CCW holders enjoy.
MudPuppy
Member
While I have no intention of being a test case, that's exactly what the law seems to indicate to me as well (regardless of how DPS cares to intrepret it!) 
As for concealing a spear in the case that it is legale with CCW and Pistol, I don't see where it says the spear actually must be concealed? Sure you have to conceal your pistol, but it just says the spear is illegal...unless you're CCW'ed.
As for concealing a spear in the case that it is legale with CCW and Pistol, I don't see where it says the spear actually must be concealed? Sure you have to conceal your pistol, but it just says the spear is illegal...unless you're CCW'ed.
Chargar
Member
These Texas laws about these knives being prohibited weapons are , very old.
There is allot of discretion in law enforcement and it is not likely anybody will get busted at some kind of reenactor thingy.
The common thinking among Texas law enforcement people is that having a Texas CHL DOES NOT mean you can carry any other kind of prohibited weapon. It is a Concealed Handgun License and the laws are entitled as such and not a concealed prohibited weapon license. Trying to construe the license otherwise is crawling out on very thin ice.
There is allot of discretion in law enforcement and it is not likely anybody will get busted at some kind of reenactor thingy.
The common thinking among Texas law enforcement people is that having a Texas CHL DOES NOT mean you can carry any other kind of prohibited weapon. It is a Concealed Handgun License and the laws are entitled as such and not a concealed prohibited weapon license. Trying to construe the license otherwise is crawling out on very thin ice.
jason10mm
Member
My understanding is that San Antonio has it's own law prohibiting ANY locking folding knife, but after 4 years and many, many encounters with LEOs (rarely the unfriendly kind I've never been hassled about an obvious "tactical" knife clipped to my pocket. So I would suspect that this type of stuff would only come into play if the LEOs were looking to hit you with "probable cause" for a car search or a wall of charges so you couldn't plea bargin your way out of everything.
That said, it is still a dumb law (who worries about switchblades [much less locking folders] nowadays??) that needs to be struck from the books.
I've never been hassled about an obvious "tactical" knife clipped to my pocket. So I would suspect that this type of stuff would only come into play if the LEOs were looking to hit you with "probable cause" for a car search or a wall of charges so you couldn't plea bargin your way out of everything.That said, it is still a dumb law (who worries about switchblades [much less locking folders] nowadays??) that needs to be struck from the books.
MacPelto
Member
Hi Anthony,
I really did just mean that as an academic exercise, but thanks for putting out the effort to call and ask. Also, if you're serious about getting our legislators to change it, lemme know how I can help.
Mac
I really did just mean that as an academic exercise, but thanks for putting out the effort to call and ask. Also, if you're serious about getting our legislators to change it, lemme know how I can help.
Mac
thorn726
Member
WOW. crazy law. one of my friends in a major knife idiot- (has too many he doesnt need, cheapos, always flicking them open again and again, not to offend actual collectors).
i don't think there is a folding knife he can't flick open.
what a scary law. sounds like jim crow.
i don't think there is a folding knife he can't flick open.
what a scary law. sounds like jim crow.
Pawcatch
Member
I bet my reputation that he couldn't flick open an Okapi #907E racheting folder.www.ragweedforge.com/okapi.jpg
Sadly,these are not the most common of knives in Texas.
thorn726
Member
ha ha. that would make a good bar bet, that knife. i dont think he could open it either
Jason10mm, you're right about the SA ordinance. It's pretty stupid. I probably violated it every day I lived there. Of course, there's nothing wrong with carrying a 5 1/2" fixed blade hunting knife (unless it violates the state statutory definition re: dirk, dagger, bowie, etc.). For those who have never seen it:
Sec. 21-17. Certain knives prohibited generally; exceptions; penalty for violation.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to intentionally or knowingly carry on or about his person a knife with a blade less than five and one-half (5 1/2) inches in length, which knife is equipped with a lock mechanism so that upon opening, it becomes a fixed blade knife.
(b) The above prohibition set forth in subsection (a) shall not be applicable to a person carrying such a knife:
(1) In the actual discharge of his duties as a peace officer, a member of the armed forces or national guard, or a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) On his own premises or premises under his control;
(3) Traveling;
(4) Engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or other lawful sporting activity; or
(5) Using such a knife in connection with a lawful occupation, during such utilization.
Sec. 21-17. Certain knives prohibited generally; exceptions; penalty for violation.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to intentionally or knowingly carry on or about his person a knife with a blade less than five and one-half (5 1/2) inches in length, which knife is equipped with a lock mechanism so that upon opening, it becomes a fixed blade knife.
(b) The above prohibition set forth in subsection (a) shall not be applicable to a person carrying such a knife:
(1) In the actual discharge of his duties as a peace officer, a member of the armed forces or national guard, or a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) On his own premises or premises under his control;
(3) Traveling;
(4) Engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or other lawful sporting activity; or
(5) Using such a knife in connection with a lawful occupation, during such utilization.
Daniel T
Member
I wonder if this is covered by the newly legislated definition of traveling.
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