That Washington State alien crap again !

[allserene]

I am a legal permanent resident and live in Washington State.

2 years ago, the NRA took a case to court and said that under the 14th amendment, legal residents and citizens were equal under the law and so Washington State's 'alien firearms license' was illegal for permanent residents.

Washington amended their law so it only applied to non resident aliens, I bought my AR-15 and my CZ rifle and my 2 Lee enfields and my Ruger 22 pistol

Today I went to collect my new glock 26

Yesterday I produced my Legal Resident Card and my Washington driver's license and my Washington Concealed Carry license

Now the shop tell me I have to produce 3 months Utility bills. I asked if that would be so for citizens and they said no - only aliens. I trailed all the way home and all the way back - I have my Glock but I am so steaming angry that this discrimination persists, that I am posting this before opening the box

I think it's the first time I have been angry since 1974 and I am surprised at myself. I made a fool of myself getting steamed up in the shop but jeez the NRA went to all that trouble to change the law and this shop is still imposing arbitrary conditions.

Does anyone have any info on whether this discrimination should still be legal in Washington State - was the NRA's win in court all for nothing ? Not all the gun shops operate this rule.

 

[jnyork]

It may very well be that the clerk simply did not understand the law. It is not at all unusual for this situation to arise, and before we bash clerks who appear to be ignorant, we need to acknowledge that our gun laws are highly complex and in some cases incomprehensible and subject to interpretation. In this case, additional training for the clerk(s) might be in order.

I run into this frequently with my C&R license, frequently I find a firearm for sale online that very obviously is C&R qualified but the seller simply will not ship to a C&R license because they dont understand the system. Very frustrating.

 

[allserene]

Yes if the clerk had been just a little under schooled it would not have bothered me.. I would have carefully explained the story about the NRA and the Supreme Court of Washington

Both she is pretty strident and gave me a hard time 2 years ago when I got my first gun there

She insists its an ATF requirement - they ask her to do this to permanent aliens she says

Funny that the other shops don't do it - so I detect some BS about this ATF stuff


Anyway I suppose the answer is to go 400 yards down the road and use the other shop who operate under different laws apparently..

 

[NavyLCDR]

Before you get your panties in a knot with the gun shop, you might want to learn the applicable laws yourself, my friend.

First 27 CFR 478.11:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm.

and then 27 CFR 478.124:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.8.1.4&idno=27

(3) After the transferee has executed the Form 4473, the licensee:

(ii) Shall, in the case of a transferee who is an alien legally in the United States, cause the transferee to present documentation establishing that the transferee is a resident of the State (as defined in §478.11) in which the licensee's business premises is located, and shall note on the form the documentation used. Examples of acceptable documentation include utility bills or a lease agreement which show that the transferee has resided in the State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the firearm;

What you are complaining about, my friend, is a gun dealer that is COMPLYING WITH FEDERAL LAW so that they do not lose their Federal Firearms License and/or fined. You should complain to Congress and the ATF, not hassle the dealer.

 

[tkopp]

What shop was this?

 

[NavyLCDR]

What shop was this?

The more relevent question would be which shop did not require the documentation. It is the shop not requiring the documentation which is in violation.

 

[Echo9]

It's the same way in all 50 states. Permanent residents need to prove residency. So the guy was 100% right.

I don't think the NRA's fight over the "alien firearms license" had anything to do with proof of residence for non-citizens.

 

[saturno_v]

I did not want to deal with the alien firearms registration permi process in WA, which at the time was badly screwed.

I just waited to become citizen and tghe next day I bought my first firearm in America.

Get your citizenship and resolve all of your problems....

 

[allserene]

I stand corrected.

It may be that the other shops I used already have proof of my residency..

It still seems weird that Federal Law can treat a legal permanent resident different to a citizen, but Washington Law was overturned for doing exactly that.

It was held that the 14th made Washington's discrimination unlawful, but presumably the federal law was not challenged and must stand for now.

Anyway, I do stand corrected and better informed as to what the current Federal Law says about utility bills, and I thank you kindly for that. THR is a mine of good info - thank you.

When I become a citizen, I know that I will be lawfully discriminated against if I want to be President (or el presidente as he will then be known), but it should ease the burden at the gun shop. I already produce my driver's license, Legal Resident card and concealed carry license, so it's a burden I will be happy to lighten.

The danger seems to be from both natural and naturalized citizens at the moment, so perhaps the regs will be tougher on them in the future - just my luck when I become one ..

 

[Zoogster]

Where are you from?
If you were previously a resident of Canada, and have no proof of residing in the US, and the shop in the border state believes you to be a Canadian, and you actually were a Canadian who then smuggled the guns into Canada, it could cause the shop trouble.
Law or no law, sometimes an FFL may decide that a situation is just not something they are comfortable with or want something extra to ease their mind. You would be free to take your business elsewhere if you felt it was wrong.
But potentially losing a sale may be worth it to that individual to not deal with the ATF while they investigate gun smuggling into Canada from his shop.


Some FFLs on the southern border have had a lot of trouble, and have the ATF looking over them with a microscope trying to find typos in their paperwork when some of their guns end up found south of the border.
That extra attention is extra stress and risk.

 

[KodiakBeer]

It's been ten years since I ran a little gun store, but it looks like things haven't changed. It's a stupid law. If you're a resident alien, it took a lot longer than 3 months to get your green card, so why should the seller have to demand utility bills in addition to other proof, like the green card itself?

I don't think the intent is discriminatory, it's just the usual stupid federal bureaucracy.

 

[allserene]

My driver's license proves I am a Washington resident and a legal US resident - but only at the time it was issued.

Similarly my Concealed weapons permit only proves I was resident in Washington at the time it was issued and I passed FBI / CIA /USCIS screening

My Residents Registration card proves I am a legal permanent resident of the USA

I suppose my 3 utility bills (which is the issue here), proves I was billed at my Washington address - even though I may ACTUALLY have been resident in Florida for the last 2 years or spent the last year in a Pakistani training camp - in other words what do the three electric bills PROVE ? - not a lot

Actually, I am a totally 100% legally clean English gimmer and I am permanently resident in Washington State - I only leave to see my children and grandchildren in England. Being retired, I visit the various gun shops most weeks and ALL the staff know me by my first name and they shoot with me at the gun glub.

It is a sad fact that this idiot in Time Square had gone right through the process and was a citizen. He was not required to produce his 3 electric bills any more - and a fat lot of difference it made.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Similarly my Concealed weapons permit only proves I was resident in Washington at the time it was issued and I passed FBI / CIA /USCIS screening

Washington issues CPLs to non-residents as well.

Yes, the utility bill thing is a totally stupid Federal requirement.

 

[KodiakBeer]

To put things in perspective, for most purposes in my state, I have to reside here 180 days a year. However, I don't have to prove that, I just have to state that on forms used for various reasons.

As far as I'm concerned, it should be the same for resident aliens. A green card, a drivers license and a background check should be sufficiently redundant to satisfy any federal bureaucrat in the purchase of a firearm. Since you've got the CCW, the background check is already done.

When I sold guns, I was always careful to apologize in advance, explain it was a federal law and have the appropriate rules in writing should they want to see them, though I don't recall anyone ever asking for further evidence.

 

[allserene]

Well at least it's better than the UK - when I was 17 and I got my first Police Firearms Certificate (Martini International .22 single shot target rifle weighing a ton) , the Police had to interview me in my home, and then they went down the street knocking on doors and asked everyone about me..

Good job it isn't now or they would say - yes that's him shooting his mouth off in the guns shop about electric bills and getting all aerated about nothing. I would be denied I reckon.

That was in the 60's and it's a lot worse now

I suppose a handful of electricity bills is a small price to pay in the big picture.

 

[BP Hunter]

I have been very strict in following the rules of purchasing a firearm for non-US citizens/Green card holder. I am one myself. There are some stores which require you to present your 90 day proof of STate residency. I always go in with those papers. One store which I buy form regularly does not require you to present your papers.

I have purchased more than 20 firearms since April 2009, when it became a law for non-US citizens to alllow legal possession on firearms in the WA State. There was only ONE STORE that asked me to show my Green card!!! That store was Big 5. Yes it was upseting. Hey c'mon, I have a Concealed Pistol License for crying out loud!! Anyway, I went home and showed it to them and walked away with a Mauser.

 

[KodiakBeer]

As an aside, it's interesting how many immigrants (of the very best sort) jump right into the gun culture when they move to the US. I've had a lot of Russian immigrant friends over the years and they're almost uniformly pro-gun. The same with Brits, Germans, Mexicans, etc, that I've known. My view may be myopic - perhaps Alaska just attracts that kind of person - but, in my experience one of the first things an immigrant wants to do (when they get settled and financially stable), is own a gun.

 

[allserene]

I think if legislators knew what someone has to go through to get a green card, then they would accept it. With an additional ccl and a driver's license and a SS card and credit card they should relax. It took me years and I had to produce Police Data from the UK and go to London and give blood samples and have a detailed stripped naked exam and psychological review - fingerprints very many times - eye iris, photographed, weighed, info on children and where they lived and all my jobs going right back - father, mother - where they were born and all about them - bank accounts with all transactions - it went on and on and on. The final stage had me working on it almost every day for a year and it took me a while to get over the stress which everyone says is awful.

Also a lot of folks don't know that getting citizenship is not 'on demand' and that years of probabationery time is needed. I have spent many years and many, many thousands getting this far - if I got in a slapping match with my wife once or got a DUI , I would be in handcuffs and thrown on a plane in Seattle and deported - and they monitor you for years and years. Any GC holder is totally checked out and more reliable than the average stranger citizen who walks in.

Of course there are no absolutes - The Officer who shot his own people in Texas and who was a natural born citizen and qualified to be President, or this goofy nitwit in New York who had been a GC holder and then progressed on to being a citizen before deciding to blow the joint up.
Jeez I feel sorry for the security services - it must be a nightmare responsiblity - which is all the more reason to keep it real and get rid of the BS stuff

 

[Gungnir]

My driver's license proves I am a Washington resident and a legal US resident - but only at the time it was issued.

Not exactly, your drivers license proves you applied for a drivers license and obtained one, indeed having a drivers license from the state is normally a cornerstone in beginning to establish residency all you need is a physical address and a mailing address (both of these may be the same).

Where does it state on your WA drivers license that you're a legal permanent resident? It never did on mine when I had one, when I went from non-resident to resident I did not need to have a new drivers license issued, nor did I need a new license issued when I went from resident to citizen in fact I don't remember telling them anything about my immigration status except for the initial application where I showed my UK drivers license and passport.

Similarly my Concealed weapons permit only proves I was resident in Washington at the time it was issued and I passed FBI / CIA /USCIS screening

Your concealed handgun license proves that you met Washington State's requirements for residency at that time, not necessarily Federal requirements they can differ. It also confirmed you were not here illegally, not necessarily that you were here legally, and that there was no record of a criminal history. Washington state does a NICS check (which includes III, NCIC, and ICE information) an FBI background check and also runs a local state background check (which is probably redundant, since the FBI will have a record of outstanding warrants from other states, and Washington, and any criminal activity from Washington will also likely be sent to the FBI except for ongoing investigations).

My Residents Registration card proves I am a legal permanent resident of the USA

No you're unexpired LPR card proves that at the time of issue you were a legal permanent resident, it can be withdrawn at any time for many reasons, and they will not necessarily retrieve the card; they will however try to inform you but mistakes do happen (I knew one person who only learned his green card was withdrawn when he tried to re-enter the US). The only way to prove your legal is for someone to contact USCIS and ask.

I suppose my 3 utility bills (which is the issue here), proves I was billed at my Washington address - even though I may ACTUALLY have been resident in Florida for the last 2 years or spent the last year in a Pakistani training camp - in other words what do the three electric bills PROVE ? - not a lot

The issue is that for the ATF residency means something different to what we commonly think of as residency. For instance you live in Baltimore 5 days a week and have a weekend home in Pennsylvania, according to the ATF you are resident of Baltimore when you're in Baltimore, and you're a resident of Pennsylvania when you're in Pennsylvania. Therefore buying a gun in Pennsylvania you'll supply utility bills from Pennsylvania, and buying a gun in Baltimore you'd supply utility bills from Maryland.

Actually, I am a totally 100% legally clean English gimmer and I am permanently resident in Washington State - I only leave to see my children and grandchildren in England. Being retired, I visit the various gun shops most weeks and ALL the staff know me by my first name and they shoot with me at the gun club.

Great, good for you that you know all the staff at your local gun stores and club, however it would be better to know all the staff at the local ATF, since they're dictating what the people you know can and cannot do.

Sure the situation sucks. It's the same for every LPR across the US, and 5 minutes with Google would have turned up that you need utility bills going back 3 months. Ultimately the resolution is to naturalize as a citizen, or alternatively lobby DC to change these rules. However since you cannot vote in a federal election your voice is not carrying much weight. The issue I imagine you're dealing with is confusion about "levels of government" city/state/federal laws can differ, I'm a naturalized ex-pat brit myself and getting your head around it can be confusing.

However as Zoogster correctly states any FFL can refuse to sell you a firearm for any reason (citizen, resident alien, non-resident alien, HR Giger alien or whatever), at the end of the day they are legally liable if the transfer is in breach of federal or state law.

 

[allserene]

Good points there gungnir
I did get my original Wisconsin driver's license from Wisconsin when I was not a LPR (pronounced 'leper'), so I should have said that it proves you are legally in the country - I remember I had to have a SS number (Pronounced 'SS') and they sent off for USCIS confirmation. Then I had a Florida license and they checked it all again before swapping the Wisconsin out. Same in Washington.
The utility bills don't prove much - as all the Members of parliament who have been claiming double housing allowances have now found out. I guess I could have a trailer in every State of the Union and have bills from em all at the same time.

But they have to start somewhere I guess....

 

[Roccobro]

My hat is off to you Allserene for being so gracious in being corrected. I still get upset when I provide multiple identifications and still get asked for auto registration or utility bill for the last month.

I am glad you are on "our" side. In all meanings of the phrase.

Justin

 

[allserene]

As an aside, it's interesting how many immigrants (of the very best sort) jump right into the gun culture when they move to the US. I've had a lot of Russian immigrant friends over the years and they're almost uniformly pro-gun. The same with Brits, Germans, Mexicans, etc, that I've known. My view may be myopic - perhaps Alaska just attracts that kind of person - but, in my experience one of the first things an immigrant wants to do (when they get settled and financially stable), is own a gun.

It's like being a kid in a sweet (candy) shop.

It must be like this with the totty in a Bangkok pick up bar

My gun closet is filling up rapidly !!

Why do you do it ? Because I can !

 

[KodiakBeer]

Why do you do it ? Because I can !

What do your friends and family back home say, when you discuss this or show them pictures?

My experience with Brits is they always say they don't want them, need them, like them, etc - while they're in the UK. Yet, the ones I've known here, start buying as soon as they can. My take is that it's a case of "The fox that lost his brush..." (if you're familiar with that metaphor?).

When I worked in the gun store here in Kodiak, it was very common for European tourists to wander in and look around furtively like it was a porn shop. They were always surprised when I offered to let them handle the firearms - I knew they couldn't buy, but I was just passing the time. The Brits always seemed to favor the AK's and AR's, the Germans wanted to see the cowboy stuff...