The 2nd Amendment,Two Radically Opposing Opinions of its Original Intent:VT vs VPC

Status
Not open for further replies.
`The right of the people to keep and bear Arms'
Posted on Mon, Dec. 17, 2007
Digg del.icio.us AIM reprint print email
By BRADFORD WILES

The Supreme Court recently agreed to rule on the specific meaning of the Second Amendment to the Constitution, which reads, ``A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.''

Many gun-control advocates claim that this grants a ''collective'' right, giving the government the authority to regulate the militia, such as the National Guard, and does not grant an ''individual'' right to gun ownership. The position that the Second Amendment only guarantees a collective right is wholly incorrect, especially when one examines the rest of the Bill of Rights.

The Founders chose the words ''the people''; the same as in the First, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth amendments. Constitutional scholars agree that there is absolutely no doubt these restrictions on government were designed to protect individuals.

Wise Founders

Justice Laurence Silberman of the District of Columbia Court of Appeals regarding the case under appeal to the Supreme Court noted in his majority opinion that the Founders were perfectly capable of distinguishing ''the people'' from ''the states'' and did so in the Tenth Amendment.

Had the drafters wanted to acknowledge the right to keep and bear arms for anyone other than individuals, they would have undoubtedly written that it is the right of ''the militia'' to keep and bear arms. With wisdom and conviction, they did not. It is also important to note the mind-set of the Framers when they were drafting the Constitution. They wanted to ensure that the people would have the means to protect themselves against an oppressive and tyrannical government and also against criminals.

The Founders would never have given the right to keep and bear arms to the very government, i.e., the National Guard, from whom they were protecting ''the people'' throughout the entire Bill of Rights.

Their mind-set was clear, rights exist without government interference, and the Constitution protects individuals from the government. What greater protection against the government can there possibly be than the right of the individual to keep and bear arms? Opponents have argued that the Founders could never have envisioned modern weapons, and thus the Second Amendment is outdated.

Applying that logic, the government should then be free to read all of your e-mail, listen to your phone conversations and bug your home using electronic equipment, as the Fourth Amendment was also drafted more than 200 years ago and thus must be outdated because the Founders could never have envisioned modern communication. In support of Washington's 1976 ban on handguns, the argument was presented that the ban is necessary for public safety. However, in the district the crime rate is such that people are not safe.

By virtue of the ban, only criminals have guns. Law-abiding citizens, the ones who brought this case against the district, are left defenseless against criminals. The police do everything they can, but they cannot be everywhere at once. Unfortunately, when split seconds count, the police are long minutes away.

Law-abiding citizens deserve the Supreme Court's recognition of their inherent right to self-defense with a gun, without infringement. Without the ability to protect my life, my other rights to peaceably assemble, be secure in my person, house, papers and effects, and any other rights enumerated in the Constitution are in jeopardy. The Second Amendment protects all of these.

It is essential that the Supreme Court recognize the fundamental right to keep and bear arms. Private individuals, the court should declare, have an inherent right to carry a gun in defense of themselves, their families and their country. The Supreme Court should come to the reasonable conclusion that the intent, spirit and language of the Founders convey an individual right, and thus strike down the district's strict gun ban.

Bradford Wiles is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.
 
`A well regulated Militia'
Posted on Mon, Dec. 17, 2007
Digg del.icio.us AIM reprint print email
By KRISTEN RAND
www.vpc.org

Sometime next year the Supreme Court will decide whether the District of Columbia's 30-year-old handgun ban is constitutional under the Second Amendment. The court should uphold the district's law banning handgun possession by its residents for both constitutional and public-safety reasons.

The overwhelming historical evidence and weight of judicial precedent support the position that the Second Amendment was intended and designed to protect a militia-based right.

The amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms only within the context of the constitutionally mandated militia, thus guaranteeing states armed militias to provide for their own security.

There is also strong scholarship to support the argument that James Madison wrote the amendment primarily to allay southern fears that Congress would undermine the slave system by disarming the militia -- thereby denying the southern states an effective means of slave control. Under this long-standing interpretation of the amendment, the district's handgun ban would survive.

The second reason the court should uphold the district's handgun ban is that it has saved countless lives. Repealing it will certainly result in increased gun death and injury.

Few know that Washington, D.C., has the lowest suicide rate in the nation. With guns in only 5 percent of its homes, the district has not only the lowest firearm suicide rate in the country but also the lowest overall suicide rate.

Nevertheless, in a nation that loses almost 30,000 citizens a year to gun violence, with hundreds of thousands more wounded, the district, like other jurisdictions with tough gun laws, is still held hostage by states with much weaker laws.

In 2006, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the majority of guns traced to crime in the district came from Maryland and Virginia. North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia also supplied significant numbers of illegally trafficked crime guns, usually handguns. None of these states' gun laws come close to the district's stringent regulations, which also ban assault weapons and tightly control ammunition.

Instead of facing repeal, the district's laws should be a model for the nation. How is it possible to think that Americans are free when they must fear being gunned down at their local mall, church, school or workplace because most of the U.S. refuses to implement effective gun laws?

The most recent installment of ''I can't believe it could happen here'' saw holiday shoppers running for cover when a troubled teenager opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle inside an Omaha, Neb., shopping mall, killing eight and wounding five.

A few days later, a heavily armed man used an assault rifle to kill four people at a missionary training center and a church in Colorado. Authorities said he had almost 1,000 rounds of ammunition and signaled his intention to kill more.

700,000 firearms destroyed

Proof that strong gun laws work is found in Great Britain and Australia. In response to a mass shooting of 16 schoolchildren and their teacher in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, Great Britain enacted a handgun ban not unlike the district's.

Since the ban's implementation, Great Britain has not experienced another mass shooting. Moreover, the British Home Office reports that ``there were 50 homicides involving firearms in 2005-06, down 36 percent from 78 on the previous year and the lowest recorded since 1998-99.''

Likewise, after 112 people were killed in 11 mass shootings in a decade, Australia collected and destroyed 700,000 firearms determined to be designed to kill many people quickly. Australia has not seen another mass shooting while its firearm homicide and firearm suicide rates have declined.

The Supreme Court should uphold the district's landmark gun law. It is hard to fathom that the Founders intended the Second Amendment to prohibit the implementation of laws that work to ''ensure domestic tranquility'' and ''promote the general welfare,'' two chief purposes for which the Constitution was conceived.

Kristen Rand is the legislative director of the Violence Policy Center.
 
Yep. Sure sounds like VPC cranio-rectally inverted logic, alright.

I love the implication that suicides are down because of a gun ban. Obvious question #1: is more value placed on a human's life when they end it themselves, or when it's taken from them violently? Obvious question #2: why aren't they taking pills instead, or any one of a hundred alternate ways of killing themselves?

This is what groups of intellectually-challenged elitists come up with when they're bored, I guess.
 
Few know that Washington, D.C., has the lowest suicide rate in the nation. With guns in only 5 percent of its homes, the district has not only the lowest firearm suicide rate in the country but also the lowest overall suicide rate.
Wow now thats desperation for your cause.

The student deserves a pat on the back, he wrote a letter about the actual subject of intent of the 2nd amendment. The VPC professional wrote a letter that largely neglected constitutional intent and was just an essay on "why I like gun control." I'm often surprised by how bad the gun control groups present their arguments in the media.
 
If you meet someone who (honesly) supports the "collective" right fr the Second Amendment, ask them Why a state would need a "right" to arm citizens for a state militia, when they routinely arm the police, who aren't part of a milita? After that, point out that "people" have rights, and governments have "powers". Actually most people who "believe" in the collective interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, believe so because it would justify gun control, not because it makes sense.
 
How is it possible to think that Americans are free when they must fear being gunned down at their local mall, church, school or workplace because most of the U.S. refuses to implement effective gun laws?
Funny they should say that. Most of those places are already gun-free zones, so how could anyone "fear being gunned down" in them?
Instead of facing repeal, the district's laws should be a model for the nation.
Oh, because THEY WORK SO WELL THERE?!?!?!
 
Few know that Washington, D.C., has the lowest suicide rate in the nation. With guns in only 5 percent of its homes, the district has not only the lowest firearm suicide rate in the country but also the lowest overall suicide rate.
Would it be wrong of me to ask why anyone should give an airborne rodent's posterior end what the suicide rate is in Washington, D.C. -- or, for that matter, anywhere else -- vis-a-vis firearms? If somebody wants to assume room temperature badly enough they're gonna do it with whatever means they can manage.
 
It's a logical fallacy. DC's suicide rate has no bearing onthe intent of the 2nd.


I don't care if they had a 95% suicide rate. Doesn't affect my RKBA one bit.
 
In 2006, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the majority of guns traced to crime in the district came from Maryland and Virginia. North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia also supplied significant numbers of illegally trafficked crime guns, usually handguns. None of these states' gun laws come close to the district's stringent regulations, which also ban assault weapons and tightly control ammunition.
How many FFLs are located in DC? None? So what percentage of "crime guns" would you expect to have been legally purchased in DC? Is there a point here?
 
What a Moron Kristen Rand must be.

Two points, first with regards to British attempts at gun control. I lived there in the early 70's actually lived on a farm and married a nice Scottish girl from a small fishing town north of Dundee. In those days every farmer had some sort of weapon, and it was not uncommon to have a shotgun or two in the trunk of your vehicle. Gun crime was non-existant. Today, it is just the opposite. Boobs like Karen do not understand that Criminals prey on un-armed citizens, they do not obey the law. My mother-in-law still lives there but is afraid to go to the corner store fearing the common muggings at gunpoint.

Constitutionally, she needs to read the Federalist Papers. Not that it would do any good. However, when I read the exchanges of the framers it is clear that the framers wanted private citizens to be armed so that they could protect themselves. These were staunch individualists that did not think the government should shoo away a bad guy. That was each persons responsibility. They even wanted the citizen to be able to form bands (Militia) that could protect themselves from adjacent state government or quasi government groups that might consider moving in or grabbing real estate orother property.

Too bad there isn't a time machine available where we could send Kristen back to 1760's and let her experience the government busting down her door with several Brown Bess's pointed at her and demanding to be put up for the night. Then she might understand the concerns.
KKKKFL
 
Few know that Washington, D.C., has the lowest suicide rate in the nation. With guns in only 5 percent of its homes, the district has not only the lowest firearm suicide rate in the country but also the lowest overall suicide rate.
Of course it does. That's because the muggers and gangbangers shoot you before you have a chance to shoot yourself.
 

Careful; the majority of those who'll read your post here would probably think the same way, but to "poison the well" as you did by introducing an argument as irrational before anyone gets to read it is a very dangerous thing to do. You have the right to think and to say what you want; that right is also shared by others, even if they disagree, and they are entitled to an unbiased hearing even among those who ultimately reject the argument. The guys in the Brady Bunch poison your arguments in similar ways if they mention them at all, and to stoop to their level is not The High Road. That's not to say I disagree with the sentiment, but if you disagree with an "irrational" argument, refute it; don't dismiss it.
 
Liko81

You are absolutely correct.About an hour after I started this thread yesterday,I said to myself "You shouldn't have interjected your opinion in the heading even though you're mainly talking to the choir."My distaste for Ms. Rand is such I knee-jerked the opening and did my well poisoning.
By the time I reflected on it ,too much time had gone by to change it and I wondered if a poster would loom up and point out the error.
And Liko showed up!Please accept my mea culpa and I will show more restraint the next time!
 
Opponents have argued that the Founders could never have envisioned modern weapons, and thus the Second Amendment is outdated.

Yup, that old time bastrd (intentional miss-spelling) step-child of an ammendment is so out dated...

I mean, who wants freedom in this day and age when we all have the government looking out for best interests?...
 
Hi all,

I may or may not be the author of the article :). I found her use of the suicide rate fascinating, but even more intriguing was the Madison and slavery argument. "There is also strong scholarship to support the argument that James Madison wrote the amendment primarily to allay southern fears that Congress would undermine the slave system by disarming the militia -- thereby denying the southern states an effective means of slave control. Under this long-standing interpretation of the amendment, the district's handgun ban would survive."

She would have us believe that Madison was concerned in the 1790's about slavery, which wasn't an issue until the 1850's? Ouch. It seems that she just fabricated that argument, as I have never seen any such dialog, anybody else?

Also, I did not get to see her article before I wrote mine, so I could not address the suicide v. crime rate. I wish I could have, as that would have been enjoyable. I think I get her on the "militia clause" with the "right of the militia to keep and bear arms" part. I just hope that the SCOTUS rules what, in my view, would be correctly.

Have a great day!

Jackie Treehorn
 
Good point Treehorn

Slavery is bad. Therefore, any part of the Bill of Rights that can be associated with it must be more than bad.

It's kinda funny that she equates the second ammendment with racism when her bread and butter(gun control) has been proven to be a racist tool ever since our 'Peculiar Institution' began to meet opposition and then was outlawed during the civil war.
 
That is perhaps the weakest argument I've yet heard from VPC. Really grasping at straws with the "lowest suicide rate" bit. I doubt there is an adult in this country who isn't aware that DC has the HIGHEST firearm homicide rate in the nation, several times that of other large metropolitan areas.

I also like how they completely neglected any mention of Jeanne Assam in their citing the church attacks, and how they champion the efectiveness of GB and Australia's decrease in gun crime, while forgetting to mention that violent crime skyrocketed and that a UN survey of 18 industrialized nations (USA included) found the UK to be the most dangerous overall.

Yeah, I know, just preaching to the choir.
 
jackie treehorn,
I remember you so well from PDO.
Great article,reprinted by dozens of papers,rags and otherwise,nationwide.
Keep up the excellent work.You tried to warn them at VT months before Cho's rampage.We'll always remember your valiant effort.
 
It's kinda funny that she equates the second ammendment with racism when her bread and butter(gun control) has been proven to be a racist tool ever since our 'Peculiar Institution' began to meet opposition and then was outlawed during the civil war.

Gun control has a long history in this nation, one that extends back even longer than the opposition to slavery.

The first gun control legislation in America came out of Virginia in the 1640's, which banned all slaves and blacks from being members of the militia and outlawed their possession of firearms or any other weapon. So the use of gun control as a tool of slavery and oppression goes way, way back.
 
Liko86 said:
Careful; the majority of those who'll read your post here would probably think the same way, but to "poison the well" as you did by introducing an argument as irrational before anyone gets to read it is a very dangerous thing to do. You have the right to think and to say what you want; that right is also shared by others, even if they disagree, and they are entitled to an unbiased hearing even among those who ultimately reject the argument. The guys in the Brady Bunch poison your arguments in similar ways if they mention them at all, and to stoop to their level is not The High Road. That's not to say I disagree with the sentiment, but if you disagree with an "irrational" argument, refute it; don't dismiss it.

This is a message board. People post here for fun. Quit being so PC. All of us came onto this board and signed up so that like minded people could talk together about things they enjoyed (ie guns) without having to debate, negotiate and compromise our thoughts and speech.


Henry Bowman said:
How many FFLs are located in DC? None? So what percentage of "crime guns" would you expect to have been legally purchased in DC? Is there a point here?

HAHAHAHAA +1
 
Seems like the Anti-Gun crowd always try to cloud the issue of the 2nd buy putting in all kinds of remarks that logical people can agree with. But they never seem to be able to argue the point of the 2nd by looking at the rest of the ammendments as a whole and complete document. The country had just gone thru a war with the British where they would come into a village or town and take what they wanted from the citizens without regard for life or property damage. Of course Acadamia has watered down the history books our children are useing that they will never be able to garner the truth about what our for-fathers fought for. So if they're going to ignore "the people" parts of the ammendments we may as well do away with "WE THE PEOPLE" in the opening line of the Constitution.
 
"There is also strong scholarship to support the argument that James Madison wrote the amendment primarily to allay southern fears that Congress would undermine the slave system by disarming the militia -- thereby denying the southern states an effective means of slave control. Under this long-standing interpretation of the amendment, the district's handgun ban would survive."

I think there is a lot of scholarship that supports this view. I have not read the papers, but there evidently was some fear on the southern part the the abolitionists in the north would disarm the southern militias.

Does anyone have any citations for this theory?

She would have us believe that Madison was concerned in the 1790's about slavery, which wasn't an issue until the 1850's? Ouch. It seems that she just fabricated that argument, as I have never seen any such dialog, anybody else?

If the history books you are reading tell you that slavery was not an issue in this country prior to 1850, you need to go find some new history books!

There were significant judicial decisions against slavery in England in the 1770's, and there was a thriving abolitionist movement in the US by the time of the revolution - mostly lead by Quakers as I recall. John Woolman, an influential Quaker began preaching against slavery in the 1750's. In 1790, the Quakers petitioned the Congress for the abolition of slavery.

John Madison and the southerners would have very good reason to be very nervous about slavery in the 1790's. By 1800 or there about, slavery had been abolished in all the Northern states.

We didn't come to war over slavery until the 1850s, but that issue had been simmering for nearly a century.

Mike
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top