"The" .308 Winchester Match Load

[wanderinwalker]

When this early Ruger 77 in .308 Winchester was passed to me, it was given with the advise that it had always been very accurate. My original plan was to just feed it factory hunting ammo and not wander down the reloading rabbit hole, but my resolve broke over this past winter.

In doing research, I found the old Service Rifle match load is generally recommended as 41.5 grains of IMR-4895 under a 168 grain Sierra Matchking HPBT, usually in Lake City cases. I also found a reference to bumping it to 42.0 grains of IMR-4895 in a bolt action, likely in a @Slamfire post. Knowing my commercial Hornady and Winchester cases have more case volume than military 7.62 NATO brass, cross-checking in several sources to verify the charge weights, and finding a deal on some Nosler 168 grain Custom Competition "seconds", I loaded up and hit the range. This was my reward:




Three back-to-back sub-MOA 3 shot groups from a 50+ year old hunting rifle, using a fixed 2.5x Leupold scope. It looks like load development is over and DONE!

Most of the references for this load suggest it should be in the neighborhood of 2600-fps at the muzzle. Based on the drop between the 100 and 200 yard groups and working backward with a ballistics chart, it looks like my rifle is in that ballpark. I'll chronograph it some time this summer to be sure, but it's really not important right away. Now I need to figure out which 165-grain hunting bullet I want to swap in for this fall.

Here's the rifle and scope combination:

 

[Ekyle]

Try Nosler Accubonds is the 165gr flavor. They have always shot well out of my Rem 700 in .308.

 

[kennedy]

I use H4895 behind a 168 match king in my rem 700 with 26 in heavy varmint barrel and a 3x9 leupold, at a 100 yds I have twice got 5 shots in the same hole .4 inch, but most of the time a 1 inch or less, all when I do my part. My loads are about the same as yours, I do vary them a little depending on the case, seems different cases have different volumes

 

[Charlie98]

Sounds about right... that's where I started when I began loading 168's for my Savage bolt gun. In the end, I had better luck with IMR4064 than IMR4895, however, at least with the 168's.

Just FYI... I've found the 168grn SMK shoots a hair better than the NCC. Looking at the bullets side-by-side, the tips on the SMK's are more uniform than the Noslers... at least, to my nekked eye. I, too, have the NCC seconds... so that may have been a factor.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

When this early Ruger 77 in .308 Winchester was passed to me, it was given with the advise that it had always been very accurate. My original plan was to just feed it factory hunting ammo and not wander down the reloading rabbit hole, but my resolve broke over this past winter.

In doing research, I found the old Service Rifle match load is generally recommended as 41.5 grains of IMR-4895 under a 168 grain Sierra Matchking HPBT, usually in Lake City cases. I also found a reference to bumping it to 42.0 grains of IMR-4895 in a bolt action, likely in a @Slamfire post. Knowing my commercial Hornady and Winchester cases have more case volume than military 7.62 NATO brass, cross-checking in several sources to verify the charge weights, and finding a deal on some Nosler 168 grain Custom Competition "seconds", I loaded up and hit the range. This was my reward:

View attachment 1142085 View attachment 1142086
View attachment 1142088

Three back-to-back sub-MOA 3 shot groups from a 50+ year old hunting rifle, using a fixed 2.5x Leupold scope. It looks like load development is over and DONE!

Most of the references for this load suggest it should be in the neighborhood of 2600-fps at the muzzle. Based on the drop between the 100 and 200 yard groups and working backward with a ballistics chart, it looks like my rifle is in that ballpark. I'll chronograph it some time this summer to be sure, but it's really not important right away. Now I need to figure out which 165-grain hunting bullet I want to swap in for this fall.

Here's the rifle and scope combination:

View attachment 1142087

Holy cow, did you have laser eye surgery or something?? Cause that's amazing!!!! I can barely do that at 25 or 100 yards with a 25x scope lol.

 

[DMW1116]

Cut, print, that’s a wrap. I had a similar experience with the 175 grain SMK and IMR 4064. I also have a Speer 168 grain load with IMR 4064, but it won’t quite do that. I have been advised IMR 4895 was good but I’ve yet to see any “in the wild” so to speak.

 

[wanderinwalker]

@Ekyle I ordered up some of the 165 grain Accubonds from Shooters Pro Shop yesterday, we'll see how they work out when they get here. A little expensive even as blems, but 100 should be enough to work up a decent load and then squirrel the rest away for any future hunting seasons.

@Charlie98 I always used the Sierra Matchking and Nosler Custom Competitions interchangeably in my .223 Service Rifle loads. As for the inconsistencies in the bullet tips, they're irrelevant out to at least 300 yards. The important measurement is the consistency of the bullet ogives and bases, and even Nosler seconds/blems have always been great.

@270OKIE No, no eye surgery. Just an accurate rifle/ammo combination and a bit of good luck. For the record, the crosshairs almost completely cover those little 50-foot pistol targets at 100 yards. As tempting as it is to swap on a more powerful scope, as this rifle sits it's perfect for our New England hunting conditions. While it's fun to put down a group at 200 yards on the range, I'm far more likely to see shot opportunities at 50 yards and under where we hunt.

@DMW1116 This .308 reloading journey began with a 20 year old metal can of IMR-4895. I did manage to find a brand new pound of IMR-4895 at a shop the other day, in the current plastic containers. Let's just say I wasn't happy with the cost but I bought it anyway. He also had Varget and IMR-4064 available, at equally stomach-churning prices.

 

[Random 8]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6264 Try this bullet also, and the Speer version if you can find it. I've killed well over 100 deer with the 150 version or the Speer 150 at .308-.300Savage speeds. I use them interchangeably in terms of terminal performance, but the Speer has shown better accuracy in most of my rifles over the years. If you're shooting deer, I'd think the 165 version will serve you well and be significantly less expensive and likely more accurate than ABs. Less complicated bullets (cup and core flat base) tend to be more accurate. If you like less recoil, you could try a 150 just for fun, and keep the velocity in that 2600fps ballpark. Deer hammer. I've shot them through a wide variety of rifles and always gotten good accuracy, exceeding match bullets in the case of my old Rem788 and the wife's Savage 11.

Give AA2495 or W748 a whirl if/when your 4895 is getting low. I'm having good luck with both of these in both 5.56 heavy and .308, and the availability and pricing is better.

 

[Charlie98]

I always used the Sierra Matchking and Nosler Custom Competitions interchangeably in my .223 Service Rifle loads. As for the inconsistencies in the bullet tips, they're irrelevant out to at least 300 yards. The important measurement is the consistency of the bullet ogives and bases, and even Nosler seconds/blems have always been great.

Indeed!

I've only used SMK's in 5.56mm, but in .308, I have noted a definite difference in accuracy between the SMK and the NCC's.... not much, but enough for me to notice, which is saying something. Not only in my 24" Savage, but even in my 16" M1a. You are probably correct about out to 300yds, but at 700yds, the NCC's were flying all over the place. (That may have been an issue with the bullet in transonic, however.)

 

[jmr40]

155 gr Lapua Scenar's are the most accurate bullet I've found for my 308's. I use a near max load of Varget, but I've done as well with 4064. I suspect that most any decent powder will work in 308.

 

[wanderinwalker]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6264 Try this bullet also, and the Speer version if you can find it. I've killed well over 100 deer with the 150 version or the Speer 150 at .308-.300Savage speeds. I use them interchangeably in terms of terminal performance, but the Speer has shown better accuracy in most of my rifles over the years. If you're shooting deer, I'd think the 165 version will serve you well and be significantly less expensive and likely more accurate than ABs. Less complicated bullets (cup and core flat base) tend to be more accurate. If you like less recoil, you could try a 150 just for fun, and keep the velocity in that 2600fps ballpark. Deer hammer. I've shot them through a wide variety of rifles and always gotten good accuracy, exceeding match bullets in the case of my old Rem788 and the wife's Savage 11.

Give AA2495 or W748 a whirl if/when your 4895 is getting low. I'm having good luck with both of these in both 5.56 heavy and .308, and the availability and pricing is better.

I actually had a box of 165 grain Hornady Interlocks in my hands at a local sporting goods store the other day. They even had them in the flat base or boat tail version. But I've never had great luck getting Hornady rifle bullets to shoot knots, so I put them back on the shelf.

And oh boy, did I mention the reloading rabbit hole thing earlier? My .308 reloading journey started with 40 155 grain Nosler Custom Competitions from some pulled down .30-06 reloads, with a loaded on date of 2003, which is why I'm estimating the age of the metal can of IMR-4895 at about 20 years old. Those bullets over 43.5 grains of IMR-4895 gave me 1-MOA 3-shot groups for the first 2 groups at 100 yards. Swapping in some 150 grain Sierra ProHunters gave me a first 3-shot group of around 1.25-MOA, and then a second 3-shot group went inside the first group. Perfect, I have a working load for 150-grain class bullets that should be around 2700-fps.

Then in looking for more 155 grain Noslers, I found the 168s for $25/100, and figured why not? They're cheap enough for plinking/practice all summer. Of course they shoot great without any load work up, but require a 2-minute elevation adjustment versus the 150/155s. So now I wonder, how much different will the sight settings be if I switch in a hunting bullet?

I also have a partial box of Hornady 180 grain Interlocks, which gave me 1.5-MOA groups at 100 yards. Depending on which manual you like, the load was either max, a grain under max or almost 3 grains under max. Without a burning need to use up those specific bullets, the remainder of the box has been shelved. (See prior note about rarely getting knots with Hornady rifle bullets, though I've had great luck with their XTP and HAP pistol bullets.)

And I haven't even begun to try different powders yet! There's an almost full pound of Varget, which I'm guarding like Gollum and the One Ring, an almost empty canister of H4895, a brand new canister of W748, the 20-year old can of IMR-4895 and now a brand new can of IMR-4895 on the shelf. I've also seen BL-C(2), H335, IMR-4064, TAC, AA2495, AA2520 and fresh production Varget in the wild lately.

So... rabbit hole, here we go...

 

[Charlie98]

So... rabbit hole, here we go...

Well... you can join me down there. My limitation right now is range time...

 

[Slamfire]

I also found a reference to bumping it to 42.0 grains of IMR-4895 in a bolt action, likely in a @Slamfire post.

I used 42.5 grains IMR 4064 in a LC case with 168's. My short range ammunition with an M1a was a 168 Match with 41.0 grains IMR 4895, and at 600 yards 41.5 grains IMR 4895 with a 168. with a 150 grain bullet, 42.5 grains IMR 4895 just duplicates ball. Forty two grains will probably be fine with slower lots of IMR 4895, it all depends on what velocities you see over a chronograph. Chambers are different and so are throats. A long chambered rifle will take more powder before you start seeing pressure indications. A large chamber will require more powder to get to the same velocity. Tight chambers and tight throats, you will end up cutting and cutting your loads!

More or less, I tried to be between 2550 fps and 2600 ish with a 168 in the 22 inch M1a

M1A 1/10" 6 groove Douglas

174 FMJBT 40.5 grs H4895 wtd, lot 4501 LC mixed WLR OAL 2.800"
18 May 2008 T = 71 °F

Ave Vel = 2524
Std Dev = 36
ES = 90
High = 2587
Low = 2497
N = 5

good group


174 FMJBT 41.0 grs H4895 wtd, lot 4501 LC mixed WLR OAL 2.800"
18 May 2008 T = 71 °F

Ave Vel = 2594
Std Dev = 14
ES = 30
High = 2609
Low = 2579
N = 5


174 FMJBT 41.5 grs H4895 wtd, lot 4501 LC mixed WLR OAL 2.800"
18 May 2008 T = 71 °F

Ave Vel = 2593
Std Dev = 15
ES = 42
High = 2613
Low = 2571
N = 5

Best group


174 FMJBT LC79 Match M118 White Box
18 May 2008 T = 71 °F

Ave Vel = 2550
Std Dev = 16
ES = 41
High = 2564
Low = 2523
N = 5

 

[lightman]

@Ekyle I ordered up some of the 165 grain Accubonds from Shooters Pro Shop yesterday, we'll see how they work out when they get here. A little expensive even as blems, but 100 should be enough to work up a decent load and then squirrel the rest away for any future hunting seasons.

@Charlie98 I always used the Sierra Matchking and Nosler Custom Competitions interchangeably in my .223 Service Rifle loads. As for the inconsistencies in the bullet tips, they're irrelevant out to at least 300 yards. The important measurement is the consistency of the bullet ogives and bases, and even Nosler seconds/blems have always been great.

@270OKIE No, no eye surgery. Just an accurate rifle/ammo combination and a bit of good luck. For the record, the crosshairs almost completely cover those little 50-foot pistol targets at 100 yards. As tempting as it is to swap on a more powerful scope, as this rifle sits it's perfect for our New England hunting conditions. While it's fun to put down a group at 200 yards on the range, I'm far more likely to see shot opportunities at 50 yards and under where we hunt.

@DMW1116 This .308 reloading journey began with a 20 year old metal can of IMR-4895. I did manage to find a brand new pound of IMR-4895 at a shop the other day, in the current plastic containers. Let's just say I wasn't happy with the cost but I bought it anyway. He also had Varget and IMR-4064 available, at equally stomach-churning prices.

Its possible that both Varget and 4064 with a Sierra bullet will shoot even better. But there are nearly unlimited combinations that shoot well in a 308. You could spend lots of money and even go through a barrel or two and not try them all! It sounds like you have already hit a load that suits your needs. For 165 grain hunting bullets I have used both the Sierra 165 grain soft point and their 165 grain HPBT, not to be confused with the HPBT Match King.

Oh yeah, nice looking rifle!

 

[nettlle]

155 gr Lapua Scenar's are the most accurate bullet I've found for my 308's. I use a near max load of Varget, but I've done as well with 4064. I suspect that most any decent powder will work in 308.

155 gr Lapua Scenar's are the most accurate bullet I've found for my 308's. I use a near max load of Varget, but I've done as well with 4064. I suspect that most any decent powder will work in 308.

Having a hard time finding 155gr Lapua Scenar's for sale.

 

[Slamfire]

Its possible that both Varget and 4064 with a Sierra bullet will shoot even better. But there are nearly unlimited combinations that shoot well in a 308. You could spend lots of money and even go through a barrel or two and not try them all! It sounds like you have already hit a load that suits your needs. For 165 grain hunting bullets I have used both the Sierra 165 grain soft point and their 165 grain HPBT, not to be confused with the HPBT Match King.!

For a time Varget was the 308 Win F Class Tactical gunpowder. Now a shooting bud of mine claims H4895 is the powder of champions. He also says the 308 Win F Class shooters are burning their barrels out, some under 1000 rounds. My other F Class friends tell me they are running Berger 185 Juggernaughts faster than I ran 168's!. And some of them are pushing 200 gr Bergers above my 168 grain velocities. Well, if that's what it takes, then that what it takes.

The first bud claimed Varget was still being used. Give it a couple of years, and the powder choice of champions will spin another half revolution.

But, considering the military cartridge was developed with IMR 4895 during WW2, any of the 4985 powders, that is IMR 4895, H4895, and AA2495, are going to safe choices for a first pick, and pretty darn hard, if it is possible, to improve on. Since H4895 is supposed to have advanced coatings, that would be a first choice. As a sling shooter, I could not hold hard enough to tell an on target difference between the three.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

For a time Varget was the 308 Win F Class Tactical gunpowder. Now a shooting bud of mine claims H4895 is the powder of champions. He also says the 308 Win F Class shooters are burning their barrels out, some under 1000 rounds. My other F Class friends tell me they are running Berger 185 Juggernaughts faster than I ran 168's!. And some of them are pushing 200 gr Bergers above my 168 grain velocities. Well, if that's what it takes, then that what it takes.

The first bud claimed Varget was still being used. Give it a couple of years, and the powder choice of champions will spin another half revolution.

But, considering the military cartridge was developed with IMR 4895 during WW2, any of the 4985 powders, that is IMR 4895, H4895, and AA2495, are going to safe choices for a first pick, and pretty darn hard, if it is possible, to improve on. Since H4895 is supposed to have advanced coatings, that would be a first choice. As a sling shooter, I could not hold hard enough to tell an on target difference between the three.

How are they pushing a 200gr bullet faster than a 168gr?? Did they give any details?

 

[Slamfire]

How are they pushing a 200gr bullet faster than a 168gr?? Did they give any details?

The how they are doing it is by having chamber pressures probably close to 80,000 kpsia. None of my buds have pressure gauges, everyone has chronographs and the community knows how fast a 185 or 200 grain has to run to be stable and accurate at 1000 yards. So, they are running their loads hot, hot, hot. They accept that their loads are above "SAAMI" specs, but, that's what it takes to be competitive in F Class Tactical.

The actions they are using are massive, made out of modern materials, and seem to be holding up. I do not shoot that sport so I would not know if anyone is cracking lugs or not. I am sure it will happen. This is sort of like those guys who ran 800 HP small block chevy engines. The first version of the 350 engine was a 295 horsepower entity. The guys who made it into a 400 HP, 600 HP, and even 800 HP motor accepted the fact they were going to rebuild the engine after a couple of runs down the track, assuming a connecting rod did not go through the engine block. Then, a different short block would have to be the core of the new engine.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

The how they are doing it is by having chamber pressures probably close to 80,000 kpsia. None of my buds have pressure gauges, everyone has chronographs and the community knows how fast a 185 or 200 grain has to run to be stable and accurate at 1000 yards. So, they are running their loads hot, hot, hot. They accept that their loads are above "SAAMI" specs, but, that's what it takes to be competitive in F Class Tactical.

The actions they are using are massive, made out of modern materials, and seem to be holding up. I do not shoot that sport so I would not know if anyone is cracking lugs or not. I am sure it will happen. This is sort of like those guys who ran 800 HP small block chevy engines. The first version of the 350 engine was a 295 horsepower entity. The guys who made it into a 400 HP, 600 HP, and even 800 HP motor accepted the fact they were going to rebuild the engine after a couple of runs down the track, assuming a connecting rod did not go through the engine block. Then, a different short block would have to be the core of the new engine.

Why don't they run 300 PRC or something with safe tested load data for 200gr bullets at fast velocities? Just seems pretty risky to run a 308 that hot...

 

[Random 8]

Why don't they run 300 PRC or something with safe tested load data for 200gr bullets at fast velocities? Just seems pretty risky to run a 308 that hot...

That class of that game is specifically limited to the .308 cartridge.

 

[JFrank]

155 gr Lapua Scenar's are the most accurate bullet I've found for my 308's. I use a near max load of Varget, but I've done as well with 4064. I suspect that most any decent powder will work in 308.

H4895 under those 155’s are magic ‘

 

[wanderinwalker]

@Slamfire thanks for the input, this is what I get for trying to run from memory instead of tracking down the source numbers first. I'm still comfortable my load combination is well in the safe range, especially in commercial cases with the long throat this Ruger has. I'd be much more careful with Lake City cases in a gas gun. Your ball duplicate number seems to confirm where I was going for my loads with the 150/155 grain bullets.

I'm trying to wrap my head around burning out a .308 barrel in 1000 rounds. Those F Tactical guys must be using some thermonuclear loads to do that to a .308. We used to run some... questionable... loads in our AR Service Rifles for the 600 yard line and we could still generally count on 3000-3500 rounds before the groups started to open up. Granted, 600 yards and in requires less of the gear than 1000 yards. But I definitely tracked my 600 yard brass very carefully, and considered it toast after the 5th loading. Others I knew had even shorter case life.

Don't forget, running 80k PSI will be all the rage in a few years when SIG and Big Army get the new 6.8x51mm cartridge and weapon system up and running! Maybe they'll share the secret sauce for acceptable barrel and action life once they've got the kinks ironed out. Or maybe there IS no secret sauce and the emperor doesn't have new clothes?

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

That class of that game is specifically limited to the .308 cartridge.

Ohh I see...

 

[Charlie98]

The how they are doing it is by having chamber pressures probably close to 80,000 kpsia. None of my buds have pressure gauges, everyone has chronographs and the community knows how fast a 185 or 200 grain has to run to be stable and accurate at 1000 yards. So, they are running their loads hot, hot, hot. They accept that their loads are above "SAAMI" specs, but, that's what it takes to be competitive in F Class Tactical.

The actions they are using are massive, made out of modern materials, and seem to be holding up. I do not shoot that sport so I would not know if anyone is cracking lugs or not. I am sure it will happen. This is sort of like those guys who ran 800 HP small block chevy engines. The first version of the 350 engine was a 295 horsepower entity. The guys who made it into a 400 HP, 600 HP, and even 800 HP motor accepted the fact they were going to rebuild the engine after a couple of runs down the track, assuming a connecting rod did not go through the engine block. Then, a different short block would have to be the core of the new engine.

The racing small block engine is a good analogy. Both require living on the bleeding edge, both accept equipment failures as a matter of course, both require buckets of money.... but results are results.

 

[Jim Watson]

When I was shooting F-T/R I was satisfied with 175 SMK or 155 Scenar and a good stout load of Varget. I tried hard to like AA2520 because it metered so well, but I found that about any extruded powder shot more accurately in my rifle, which really mattered when NRA decided the "belly benchrest" guns and shooters were too accurate for the high-power targets and cut the F target diameters in half.

The guy who got me involved moved on to the heavy, fast, and hot load category. Then into other calibers for F Open and PRS.