The .38 special FBI load: still the best?

[springer99]

I'm pretty sure the human species has not evolved bullet-resistance since the FBI test.

A 158-grain SWCHP in the 8 ring still settles most matters.

Yup, that about answers the question.

 

[NoirFan]

If you are talking about the Remington HTP 158 grain LSWCHP "+P", than I think the answer is no. Read this thread for why:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/369540-just-tested-new-remington-htp-fbi-load-vs-old-one.html

In short, the new Remington "HTP" version of this round has pitiful velocity, and supposedly a harder bullet and probably won't expand worth a hoot from a snub nose. So, they basically ruined there own product. This exact same load seems to have lost about 100 FPS or more compared to the old Remington Express version that ceased production a handful of years ago.

No other manufacturers make the FBI load anymore either, except Buffalo Bore. From tests I've seen, there 158 grain +P LSWCHP makes a mess out of ballistics gel, good penetration and massive expansion. But, it is a VERY HOT load... with significant recoil. Truly off the charts power for the cartridge, but I prefer something more controllable.

I personally use Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain +P in both my snubs and 4" duty revolvers. It does wonderfully in BOTH platforms, which is very rare for a .38 special. NYPD did or still does issue that same load for not only their backup guns, but also for the remaining officers still toting S&W Model 10s etc. on duty. It couples good penetration with very nice and consistent expansion, with controllable recoil and minimal muzzle blast/flash. It truly is excellent IMHO.

I highly suggest you look up that Speer load. The FBI load WAS a great load, and I think it still would be about tops IF it was still produced by more manufacturers and the folks over at Remington etc. didn't ruin the current offering how they did.

Thanks for the information Cooldill. So in summary, it seems like the modern Remington 158gr lead hollow point has lost about 100 fps since its heyday, and now hits about 800 fps out of a 2" snub barrel. Certainly it seems lackluster, and the youtube videos linked in that thread don't make it look too good either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bso9byEQOoU&list=PLR1aaUn5HrAdvr6XJ4YP954EAYG20T5v7&index=15

Basically it turns into a wadcutter that penetrates 17". Not terrible, but no longer the best either. Thanks for your help. Maybe I'll try out those Buffalo Bore rounds as I prefer the heavier 158 gr bullets in this caliber.

 

[Crayfish]

I agree, go heavy. Lowering a bullets weight to try and get some kind of reliable expansion by increasing velocity gives you diminishing returns and defeats the effectiveness of the 38 special. If you want faster and lighter go 9mm. Accuracy and penetration are "must haves", expansion is nice to have but much less important then the first two. Gel penetration and expansion don't tell the whole story as we all know.

 

[The Alaskan]

I hope this answers your question, and I apologize if it is more than you wanted to know.

That was superb response. Thank you.

I guess, after all these years, I never knew that non jacketed, lead ammo was swaged and not cast. I thought ALL lead was cast, even the stuff inside cup and core projectiles. I thought you adjusted the hardness of a projectile by modifying the lead/tin/antimony ratios in its composition. (But that's not for here, that's for the reloading section.)

Thanks for your response.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

Some old school FBI load velocities:

(((Velocities achieved through Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolvers of various barrel lengths using a 158 grain cast lead semi-wadcutter and 5.4 grains of Unique.)))

2-inch: 847 fps
4-inch: 935 fps
5-inch: 952 fps
6-inch: 1021 fps
8 3/8-inch: 1007 fps

Source: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...eplicate-fbi-load-federal-158gr-lswchp-p.html


The "new" Remington RHT/FBI load isn't too far under those figures at 890 fps through a four-inch barrel. Remington ballistics are known to be close to those obtained via real guns and not unvented test barrels.

 

[336A]

Here is a updated version of that test http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/125541-four-high-performance-38-special-handloads.html

Either way the Unique combo is a good one

 

[USSR]

Just recently did .38 Spl +P FBI load development work with these bullets that I cast:



The large HP weighs in at 160gr and the Penta Point HP weighs 164gr. I cast them using a 35:1 alloy, so they are really soft and will expand at 800 - 900fps. Got the velocity required with the following 3 powders: 5.6gr Unique, 6.4gr AA#5, and 7.0gr HS-6. Worked quite well out of my 2.5" S&W 19-4.

Don

 

[Deaf Smith]

I prefer the Buffalo Bore loads. Either the +p or the standard.

From a 3 inch S&W 64 the standard load still gets 900 fps. Not bad at all.

And the +p, from my 2 3/4 inch Speed Six, gets 1100 fps. I chroned them myself!

Deaf

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I'm not going to get into the effectiveness in the target of this load, but look at it from another angle. If you carry such a load in the gun, I recommend a JHP bullet for the reload. Especially when used with a speedloader, the shoulders of SWC bullets hang up on the chambers, and the soft lead hollowpoints can get beaten up and deformed.

 

[Malamute]

(RE: Glaser). Not enough penetration to reliably reach vital organs with those. Good on paper, bad on the streets.

I think in this thread, you're going to get some responses from folks recommending whatever load they use in their revolvers. Often times, they haven't done the homework to know what said loads will do from their specific guns. Things like marketing, price, or hearsay have a very very large influence on anyone buying defensive ammunition... unfortunately, more people care about those things vs actually learning about what they're buying and what it does in the real world.

I recommend only those loads that I've THOROUGHLY researched and personally tested, and know that they do in fact have the capacity for excellent real world performance. OP, and anybody else reading, make sure you know how your ammo really performs from your gun. Don't rely on a magazine ad, commercial, or a fancy cardboard box to make that decision for you. This goes with all calibers, not just .38 special.

Just saying.

^ ^ Good post.

In discussions elsewhere among a number of long time LE that study the matter, it seems that the 2" guns tend to run right on the edge of reliable expansion velocity. In colder weather, they can fail to expand, even though fine in the summer. Some of them have gone back to the 148 gr full wadcutter for 2" guns. Not as glamorous, but seems to give reliable penetration and performance in the 2" guns. I dont recall all the details, but I believe they felt they worked well in real life use. I may be able to find the specifics if desired.

 

[35 Whelen]

If one is concerned about the loss or gain of 100 fps with the traditional "FBI" load, why not buy these or these (or cast your own), one of these and handload the ballistics you want?

35W

 

[gun_with_a_view]

If you liked the 158 grain Remington FBI/Chicago/Dallas load, you ought to like this 357 MAG round even better clocking 1235 FPS:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/69...58-grain-semi-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-50

 

[Monac]

gun_with_a_view, I thought 125 grain bullets were considered the best weight for defense/police loads in 357 Magnum? Also, I thought part of the reason for the popularity of FBI load was that it did not have the flash, blast, and recoil of 357 Magnum loads.

 

[USSR]

...I thought part of the reason for the popularity of FBI load was that it did not have the flash, blast, and recoil of 357 Magnum loads.

Exactly. The goal of the FBI load was to get a heavy lead bullet that could be driven to 850 to 900fps in a 2" revolver, and would expand at that velocity. Most 125gr jacketed hollowpoints won't expand at snubbie velocities, exhibit a whole lot of flash, and shoot well below POA.

Don

 

[BSA1]

Although I currently use Hornady Critical Defense in my snubby I have been considering using Remington Golden Saber 38+P 125 gr. brass jacketed hollow point, product code GS38SB. It is a non bonded jacketed bullet. In youtube video tests it shows good expansion and penetration in ballistic gel from 2" barrel snubby.

Since it is a non-bonded bullet the jacket separates from it's lead core in some tests. This is of no consequence to me as the lead core penetrates deep enough to meet FBI standards.

The other big plus is it is only about $12.00 for a box of 25 rounds which makes it cheap enough to use for practice.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

monac,

125 grain bullets were considered the best weight for defense/police loads in 357 Magnum? Also, I thought part of the reason for the popularity of FBI load was that it did not have the flash, blast, and recoil of 357 Magnum loads.

Subtracting 150 fps from the posted velocity of 1235, this round should clock a little less than 1100 fps from a two-inch barrel and a notch above the traditional FBI load. I didn't consider side effects like flash and recoil, but it appears 158 grain bullets were in the mix when law enforcement was still fiddling around with with tweaking revolver rounds prior to the stampede to semi-autos. Don't lose sight of the fact the 158 grain was the original 357 MAG round, and developed for hunting:

In the late 1920s and the '30s, efforts were made to find something more powerful. These included the .38/44 round, simply a high velocity 158-grain .38 Special; the .38 Super Automatic from Colt, with a pointy nose 130-grain full metal jacket bullet at some 1200 foot per second, generating perhaps 420 foot-pounds of energy; and the .357 Magnum cartridge jointly introduced by Smith & Wesson (the gun) and Winchester-Western (the cartridge). In the Magnum, the 158-grain bullet was retained, but with a flat point and much greater velocity and energy.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html



This should link to a video for the aforementioned Remington 357 MAG 158 grain round:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqS3ixj-NtQ

And here one can compare the same test of the equivalent Gold Dot round:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO9CNI8qV2I

 

[W.E.G.]

Serving since 1984.

 

[MotorCraft]

Winchester 38SPL. +P, 158 GR. lead-semi wad cutter HP

^^^+1

 

[Monac]

Thanks, gun_with_a_view and USSR!

 

[jdmb03]

Buffalo Bore has the .38 outdoorsman, it seems like a nice heavy round.

 

[TimSr]

I noticed that with all this discussion of every .38 spl round known to man, nobody has mentioned how far the point of impact is from zero at a given distance. Do your snubbies all have adjustable sights or do these widely varrying velocity rounds all hit the same place for you, or is it not really a consideration for self defense distances?

I've opted for 148gr DEWC at 950fps from my snubby because those really cool high velocity light weght hollow points hit unacceptably low for me. I've heard Buffalo Bore has their version of my handload as well.

 

[TruthTellers]

The FBI load is still fine, if you can find them. I think the best .38 for a short snub barrel is the Federal Nyclad, but those aren't made anymore.

If this is for a barrel of 3" and up, I don't see anything wrong with the Remington Golden Saber. Probably the one thing that has Remington's name on it that is not crap. If you can't find the Golden Sabers, then I see the 125 gr. Winchester White Box .38+P as a good load as long as it's from a 4" barrel.

 

[ROAshooter]

?????

"The FBI load is still fine, if you can find them. I think the best .38 for a short snub barrel is the Federal Nyclad, but those aren't made anymore.

If this is for a barrel of 3" and up, I don't see anything wrong with the Remington Golden Saber. Probably the one thing that has Remington's name on it that is not crap. If you can't find the Golden Sabers, then I see the 125 gr. Winchester White Box .38+P as a good load as long as it's from a 4" barrel."

Do you base this on personal use.....or internet information?

 

[MCgunner]

A 158-grain SWCHP in the 8 ring still settles most matters.

+1 I carry it. It ain't broke, why fix it? "Magic loads" don't impress me. Street creds impress me. The FBI load has the street creds.

I don't do 110-125 grain stuff. With limited velocity, I want the bullet weight. It insures penetration. A 110 grain load is little better than a .380 IMHO.

 

[SeanSw]

The 125 gr +p golden sabers shoot well in both our Ruger LCRs with 1 7/8" barrels. They print extremely close to heavier loads out to 10 yards which is about as far as we have tried them on paper. Personally, I think they are bit uncomfortable to shoot in my. 38 special only LCR with a boot grip. They have sharp recoil and a lot of flash compared to the boutique variety of 158gr standard pressure lead swchp that I prefer.

TimSr - Do you load those dewc yourself?