Where is the FBI load?

[Lucky Derby]

What does the 1300 fps do to a K frame s&w ??

I have seen a few factory .38+P 125 jhp listed at 950 fps but never 1300. I don't reload .
I'm lucky to have a case of Federal + P LSWHP put away back in 1999, along with 6/7 boxes still left from another case. Lately I have been looking at Georgia Arms to get a 1,000 rds of their 158+P LSWCHP but it's always out of stock. It seems they have more of the 125+ P listed at 950 fps.

Edit
Just looked and georgia arms does have their 158+p LSWHP in stock in reloaded used brass $14 a box 50rds.

Shouldn't do anything.
The weak spot of the K frame is FULL POWER MAGNUM LOADS WITH LIGHT BULLETS.

 

[brokenolmarine]

Back in the late 90s, my officers were carrying model 64s with 4" barrels on duty. We carried the FBI load as our duty round when I started as a Firearms Instructor for the department and I was happy enough with the round. It shot well in the guns, expanded well in the testing and was very accurate. During a Law Enforcement Expo in 1998, followed by a Street Survival Seminar, I sat in on a Speer Seminar, and saw the Speer Gold Dot demo LIVE. They tested the Gold Dot ammo against samples taken from the duty ammo of officers from all the departments at the expo, live and in person right on the department range. The Gold Dot ammo out performed every round there.

We switched to Speer Gold Dots shortly after that, and carried them in the 64s until we transitioned to Glocks a few years later. Want to guess what our duty round was in the Glock?

 

[Confederate]

This is great...I've been meaning to ask that same question. Stay away from the Georgia Arms version. They make pretty good ammo overall, but their load was tested some time ago and for some reason it didn't expand.

I don't know why the companies waste their time and resources making round nose lead ammo. It's always available and it's bad at everything. Who buys it? Okay, I have some jacketed round-nose, but I got it on sale and nothing else was available. So. Why would anyone make it?

 

[acman]

I was looking at the ammo selection at walmart today and they had four boxes of the remington ammunition that you described. Its nice to know they can be found locally with out searching hard. Keep up your search.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I was looking at the ammo selection at walmart today and they had four boxes of the remington ammunition that you described. Its nice to know they can be found locally with out searching hard. Keep up your search.

Thanks!

Well today I FINALLY (emphasis on FINALLY) found a couple boxes on rareammo.com, I snatched em' for $24 a box! I will hopefully chronograph them in my M-642 2" bbl snub and my M-64 4" bbl police revolver soon!

 

[ThomasT]

I don't know why the companies waste their time and resources making round nose lead ammo. It's always available and it's bad at everything. Who buys it? Okay, I have some jacketed round-nose, but I got it on sale and nothing else was available. So. Why would anyone make it?

What is your experience with round nosed ammo? Have you ever shot anyone with it? Have you ever been shot with a round nosed lead bullet? Is your only source of information what you have read on the internet or in gun magazines? My uncle was a cop and killed one man while on duty. He did it with a S&W model 15 loaded with the issued RNL ammo. The attacker was killed on the spot. He never moved out of his foot prints.

I just reread about the 45 colt used in the Phillipenes agaist the Moros and they had several failures with it along with the 220gr bullet from a 30-40 Krag at 2000fps against the same people.

A round nose bullet would not be my first choice if other shapes were available but if it was all I could get then thats what I would use.

And I have been watching a couple of shows on prohabition and the gangster wars in Chicago and those people killed the hell out of each other using the only bullet shape available, round nose.

Make your shot count and the RNL bullet will kill just as well as any other bullet. I don't know when it became the law that only a hollow point bullet will work for defense. Or offense.

 

[goon]

I think the LRN is mostly relegated to plinking or practice ammo these days. I don't tend to buy it because it's cheaper for me to reload .38 Spl practice ammo than to buy it. Actually, it's not cheaper for that round - I just shoot more for the same money.

But I think that's why it's still around. And some of it probably is left loaded in guns for defense by people who don't have anything else to use and figure that even a less-than-ideal bullet is better than a very short club.



I also have to say that Cooldill seems pretty good at finding obscure ammo retailers that have a few boxes of hard to find stuff in stock.

 

[mavracer]

What is your experience with round nosed ammo?

I've shot a fair amount of small game with 158gr Hornady RN lead it does damage a lot like a 22 HV hollow point maybe a bit less, neither would be my first choice if anything else was available.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Old S&W pistols 36 model 10's are sighted for the 158gr bullet. New guns are sighted for lighter bullets. I use the 158 SWCHP in all my older S&W. I won't buy the new Smith guns period. I like the old real blue pinned barrels .

 

[336A]

Wrong the new guns are not sighted in for lighter bullets. My brand new M10-14 is regulated for 158gr bullets as are all fixed sighted S&W .38 SPL revolvers. I'd wager that goes for all fixed sighted revolvers regardless of manufacture as well.

 

[goon]

My experience is that newer S&W .38's also seem to be regulated to 158 grain loads for elevation. For windage... sometimes they need to go back to the factory to get regulated for that.

 

[phil dirt]

I still have some of the FBI load, but the most interesting stuff I've got rat holed away is 3 or 4 boxes of Remington 200 grain round nose lead. If I remember correctly, they are called the police load on the box. I haven't shot any of that stuff for many years, but I remember that they were plenty accurate in terms of hitting where you pointed them. The interesting thing, though, is that they would usually keyhole when they hit the paper I was shooting at. Having never shot them at anything other than paper targets, I wonder what they would do in a self defense situation. I know that the British Army used a 178 grain load in what they called the 380, which is the same thing as the .38 S&W. They seemed to think it was a good man stopper.

 

[Armor Snail]

http://www.underwoodammo.com/38specialp158grainswchpboxof50.aspx


You're welcome.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Yes the British used a .38/200 cartridge I believe, pretty similar to the American .38 Special Super Police, which is simply a term for .38 special loaded with a 200 grain round nose bullet.

Supposedly, these long bullets tumble in flesh, causing greater wounding than 158 grain RNL .38 special loads. But, I have never seen any actual gel tests on the load to confirm or deny this!

Armor Snail: Thanks! Those look hot! I like Underwood's stuff, I had some 9mm +P+ 147 grain loads from them that were smoking along, felt like a warm .40 out of my Glock 19.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Buffalo Bore; Speer Gold Dot.....

I used the "FBI" or "Chicago" .38spl load, the 158gr lead SWC-HP +P with my Ruger GPNY 4" barrel(a DA only GP100 6 shot) in the mid 2000s.
I purchased a 50rd box of Buffalo Bore based on gun-writer/sworn LE officer: Massad Ayoob recommended .38spl defense-duty loads.

The Buffalo Bore/FBI load worked fine but I read a article on the Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP +P. It said this .38spl +P was designed with the NYPD for use in model 10s & the J frame back ups(36, 642, 442, 638).

I liked the ballistics of the 135gr +P Speer Gold Dot .38spl load & would feel safe carrying it in a .357magnum or a snub .38spl revolver.

 

[Lucky Derby]

I still have some of the FBI load, but the most interesting stuff I've got rat holed away is 3 or 4 boxes of Remington 200 grain round nose lead. If I remember correctly, they are called the police load on the box. I haven't shot any of that stuff for many years, but I remember that they were plenty accurate in terms of hitting where you pointed them. The interesting thing, though, is that they would usually keyhole when they hit the paper I was shooting at. Having never shot them at anything other than paper targets, I wonder what they would do in a self defense situation. I know that the British Army used a 178 grain load in what they called the 380, which is the same thing as the .38 S&W. They seemed to think it was a good man stopper.

I came across a box of that not to long ago. Though it a bit odd, but the price was right so I grabbed it. Shot pretty good out of my Colt Trooper & S&W M15, both 4". I didn't chrono it or any thing, just blasted Pepsi cans.

 

[RealGun]

I got my Remingtons, and recently. Maybe they will resurface, now that hunting season ammo is distributed.

 

[oss117]

I tried some Remington +P 158gr SWCHP's. I found them to be dirty and with a tendency to stick in the chambers. Does that match anyone else's experience?

 

[Panzerschwein]

Hey gang!

I finally got two boxes of Remington HTP .38 special +P 158 grain LSWHCP loads in the mail and they are pretty nice, haven't shot them yet but will shoot some of them tomorrow. The hollow points on these rounds are a little rough, some are fairly well deformed. But these are nickel plated cases and sealed with red sealant, and look good otherwise.

Will try them tomorrow like I said!

 

[RustyShackelford]

A - with the FBI .38spl load....

I had heard in the 1990s & saw it myself first hand later, that a big problem with the FBI load; 158gr lead SWC-HP +P is the soft lead HP bullet will bend or be distorted after you carry it(pocket carry).
To use a small strip case or carry a speed-loader holder is smart if you want to tote these FBI .38spl loads.

Rusty
PS; a small Altoids mint tin can carry 2 .38spl speed strips too.

 

[Panzerschwein]

UPDATE!

I shot about 18 rounds of the new Remington HTP FBI load through my Model 64 S&W with a 4" barrel yesterday.

They seemed pretty good, fairly warm. They slapped a spinning plate target around harder than the 158 grain el cheapo range fodder I was also shooting. Hows that for scientific?

Really though, I'd love to get these through a chronograph but unfortunately I don't own one at this time. I am hoping it chronos just as fast as the last generation Remington FBI load. There has been one test on the S&W forum where someone chrono'd these HTP FBI loads and they were in fact slower than the old Remington FBI load.

Still, I'm fairly well satisfied and these will be in my cylinder when I go to sleep at night. I'm also interested in getting ahold of some of the Underwood FBI load to test, but I can't right now because a recent gun purchase just set this cowboy back a piece LOL!

Thanks for the help guys, I'll be getting those velocity number to you hopefully relatively soon.

 

[Confederate]

Man, it's expensive. I don't pay more than a buck per round...ever. I'll carry a .357 and take the extra weight. Isn't there anything else other than the Buffalo Bore out there?

 

[Confederate]

What is your experience with round nosed ammo? Have you ever shot anyone with it? Have you ever been shot with a round nosed lead bullet? Is your only source of information what you have read on the internet or in gun magazines? My uncle was a cop and killed one man while on duty. He did it with a S&W model 15 loaded with the issued RNL ammo. The attacker was killed on the spot. He never moved out of his foot prints.

Not just gun magazines. Back in the 70s, I studied the Justice Department study of handgun ammunition while working for the NRA. And though the study was faulty in a number of areas, it wasn't faulty in regard to the round nose bullets, which it pretty much panned.

The study's authors interviewed police departments and the military, and the .45 auto in World War II and Korea were pathetic. They would kill, but not quickly. And it doesn't make any difference if you're talking about a .38 Spc or .45, round-nosed bullets just don't usually take people down. I had a friend who came ashore in the Philippines on the same beach MacArthur had just a few days earlier. He was expecting no trouble, but he said some little guy came running out of the jungle screaming his head off and wielding a machete. He quickly drew his service .45 and shot the guy square in the chest. "The guy kept coming as if I hadn't shot him," my friend complained. "I didn't have time for a second shot, so I used the barrel of my gun to crack him over the head. And the amazing thing is," he told me, "the guy survived!" He didn't put the blame on his ammo, though; he blamed the .45 and never had a good thing to say about it for the rest of his life.

Also, there was the celebrated case in New York where a police rookie and a sergeant both emptied their revolvers (with round nosed bullets) into a towering bad guy. He died, but not before killing the sergeant with his knife. The bad guy, apparently a street person, eventually bled out. In some places, cops are taught to shoot, and, if necessary, run or prepare to physically engage their adversaries. In this Furgason mess in Missouri, if Wilson had not fired his pistol when he did, Brown would have killed him by physically taking the gun from him and using it on him, or he would have killed him with his bare hands. Better to shoot and disengage than to engage and die.

I wouldn't use round-nosed bullets for defense. And, actually, even 9mm FMJ is better than either the .38 or the .45 FMJ. The military guys I've talked to said they need the firepower and the penetration more than they need a big hole in the end of their guns. To me, that's sayin' something.

 

[RealGun]

Man, it's expensive. I don't pay more than a buck per round...ever. I'll carry a .357 and take the extra weight. Isn't there anything else other than the Buffalo Bore out there?

I would, if I wasn't actually going to shoot many, hoping I never really needed them. What is my life worth? Maybe I could spring for some deluxe SD ammo, eh?

 

[LongbowShooter]

I've found a couple boxes at times. Never seem to have a large supply out there. Thanks for the links.