THE 9MM : Another Look

[Man With A Gun]

The shootings at VT were done with a 9mm. Does anyone know what ammo was used?

I have heard it was 115grn. 9mm BALL.

Next to 147grn. subsonic loads, this is the absolute worst anti-personel load.

Put emotion aside and look at this shooting from a combat performance stance and the 9mm is not the weak-knee child as sold to us by experts.

With the new loads available it has great performance, low recoil, lots of bullets in a mag, and low flash.

Many Federal agents have stayed with the 9mm but loaded with the new JHP stuff.

I do not want to minimize the VT deaths but there is some real world intelligence here.

As horrible as it was it does show the nutcase did get off 170 shots in less than 10 minutes with a massive body count. The 9mm just cannot be as sick as I have been told.

I have followed shootings for many years and do not agree the 9mm should NOT be considered to save your life.

Life and death on the street beats theories every time.

 

[welldoya]

Well, there has GOT to be a reason that the 9mm has been around so long.
I just bought a Glock 19. Felt just right to me. I was considering a 36 because I like the .45 but (if I remember correctly) it held 6+1, the 19 holds 15+1.
Those extra rounds give me peace of mind. You just never know what might come up.

 

[DennisE]

After years of carrying .45 ACP or .40 S&W I now carry only 9mm (EMP or P7M8). I shoot it very well and get much high % hits faster with it...and afterall only hits count! Dennis

 

[wooderson]

Sometimes I think people are battling a strawman in these caliber debates. Aside from internet commandos, I honestly don't recall anyone who says 9mm is a 'bad' round (even in FMJ form) and it's fully recommended by any number of professional trainers.

 

[p85]

As my name suggests, I enjoy the 9 mm also. I am comfortable shooting it, shooting it well and putting a lot of holes in the target before reloading. I shoot .45 and like it but its not the same. I did recently buy a 10 mm and I have to say that it is going to give my 9 a run for the money as to what will be my primary carry weapon.

 

[bg226]

The gunman sent a package to NBC with pictures. One of the pictures showed hollowpoints up close.

Here is the picture:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18183171/displaymode/1107/s/2/framenumber/7/

 

[o/u mike]

The .22...

...may have done more damage than people give the round credit for. At close range, I wouldn't want to have either entering my body.

 

[Glock Glockler]

How did the shootings go down? If the person he shot was curled up in the fetal positon and he shot them in the head it doesnt tell us much about performence, a .22 will work just fine for that.

 

[benelli12]

The reason the 9mm has stayed around so long is because IT WORKS. Although maybe not as powerful, or heavy as other rounds, it'll kill ya dead just as well as anything else that will kill you.

Dead is dead, whether it be a 9mm or a 500S&W, you'll get the same result with both.

 

[security6]

The 9mm works just fine for personal defense. Any gains that the 40 or 45 have (if there are any) over the 9mm are marginal.

The 38 special worked fine for years and years, and it is the same diameter bullet (well, pretty close anyway) and has less energy. If the 38 special works fine, you can bet a 9mm will work fine.

 

[hso]

Tread softly folks.

I understand the curiosity about the technical aspects of shooting, but I caution all of us to deal respectfully with this issue.

Remember that those folks that were murdered were our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters.

 

[BADUNAME13]

I have only been close to a single 9mm shooting.
But the 13 rounds of FMJ the Haji took did not make me feel comfortable with the 9mm.

'Execution style' a .25 will work.

 

[Jerry Morris]

Remember that those folks that were murdered were our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters.

I have long been very strict at letting MY kids know when they have been foolish. Had one of mine been there and NOT gone offensive, they would rue the next meeting with me.

And yes, I would grieve them if they perished. But, I would have been proud of the effort!

Jerry

 

[jon_in_wv]

It reminds me of a few years back when a robber ran into a hotel conference room in california in an attempt to rob the people there. Unluckily for him it was a LEO confeference. He had a gun and the beating he received was talked about on the news for a few days. He didn't get one shot off. Don't take that is a direct criticism of the kids at VT but more a criticism of current culture. It saddens me that our human "fight or flight" reflex has been degraded to, "playing possum". Hoping your not going to be a victim is not a good way to keep from being one.

 

[Man With A Gun]

Thanks for all the excellent replies.

A lot can be learned from this awful and tradgic shooting.

I really do not know how I would deal with the execution of my child and I hope God gives those parents peace soon.

Thanks for the pic of he HP rounds. The media fenzy did not cover this at all that I was aware. The news types ragged the story to death for two full weeks, as they do most things.

About the only positive thing to come out of the VT shootings was we have not heard another word about Imus or Anna Nichol Smith which I was personally sick of hearing about.

Again, thanks to all who took time to respond to my inquiry.

 

[jlh26oo]

make it stop

and the 9mm is not the weak-knee child as sold to us by experts.

wHAt? what experts are selling it as such? maybe you should take it up with them. 9mm works. 99% + of the members on this board will affirm.

but if you needed this type of "real world intelligence" to know how well 9mm stops an attacker...

:banghead:

 

[1 old 0311]

The 9 has done it's job in two World Wars, and dozens of smaller conflicts. I think a lot of people look to a larger round to make up for poor shooting skills.

 

[kellyj00]

I don't know why the 9mm got such bad press, but I think it has something to do with the fact that the German Luger used it...our WW2 boys thought their 1911 .45acp's were better, just like we all do...we all think our's is the best.

I think we've been sold on that for a long time. If you ever shoot a Ruger .22 designed like the old luger (grip angle for example) then you'll know that the luger wasn't an ergo-unfriendly pistol. Even Glocks have a mildly swept-back design, so maybe the German's were on to something.

Germany also produced Sig Sauer, H & K, BMW and Mercedes. They can't be all that bad in the engineering dept. Remember our boys thought the .223 was going to be 'too' small a caliber compared to the m1 in vietnam, but the .223 has been the default military rifle round for infantry for a long time. Sometimes old habits die hard, especially when they're battle proven.

 

[Sigdude]

When you actually

hold a 9mm in your hand,you realize that it does have weight and mass.
And when it expands it is delivering alot of " Foot Pounds of Energy ".
The shock and yawn of this in the brain area of the head is traumatizing.
So i think even a .22 is deadly,it's what the hit-men use with a silencer.

For defence,i wouldn't go any lower than a 9mm though.

 

[jklinstein]

Self defense is about quick incapacitation of an aggressor.

VT was about murdering unarmed and passive victims.

If Cho had armed himself with chemical weapons or pipe bombs (instead of pistols), and killed 32 unarmed students, would we be considering the effectiveness of these weapons for self defense?

I'm not saying that this makes the 9mm ineffective for self-defense, but the eventual death of a passive victim isn't equivalent to the quick incapacitation of a determined aggressor.

 

[Jerry Morris]

The 9 has done it's job in two World Wars, and dozens of smaller conflicts. I think a lot of people look to a larger round to make up for poor shooting skills.

In my own experience, went from a 9 to a .45 because I was more accurate with the .45. I have never had a 9 that was equal to my 1911s in accuracy.

Jerry

 

[Correia]

I have long been very strict at letting MY kids know when they have been foolish. Had one of mine been there and NOT gone offensive, they would rue the next meeting with me.

Dear God, some days I hate the internet. Some days I absolutely DESPISE the internet.

This is one of those moments.

I've seen some pretty asinine chest thumping on THR, but that above quote has got to take the cake.

First off, you weren't there. You don't know jack about how it went down, but you're totally prepared to cast aspersions of cowardice on the people that got murdered?

But wait, let me rephrase your post, basically, if they were your kids, and they didn't die stupidly, or bravely enough to suit you, then you would abuse them?

People are all so brave on the internet.

So if you've got a guy, shooting into a room of people, by surprise, and you would charge across the room, through the doorway, and take him out with your kung fu?

Horse crap.

Maybe you would. Maybe you are as brave and tough as your internet persona. I don't know.

But you still weren't there. You don't know jack about what actually happened. But please Sir, don't let that hold you back.

I carried a gun in violation of school rules the entire time I went to college. That was my personal choice. It don't make me any better, or any tougher, or any manlier than anyone else, but wait, I forgot, this is the internet. Where we can talk all sorts of smack, especially about eighteen year old kids getting killed by a madman, and how you would've done so much better.

Your pomposity disgusts me. I'm stopping there before I violate THR rules with a personal attack, but believe me, it is difficult.

I teach CCW. I use the Austin Texas shooting where the CCWer took on the crazy mass shooter, and died, as an example. I ask if he did the right thing, and then cut them off before they can answer. Because we're all different. There is no right answer. Everyone has a different level of training, skills, knowledge, abilities, and yes, even courage.

People ask me what I would do, because hey, I'm the instructor, right? I always say that what I would do is totally irrelevant. And anyone who would stand in front of class, and puff up their chests, and tell everyone about how brave they are under fire, and what manly acts of heroism they would undertake, is full of crap, and is only out to stroke their own egos.

Well, stroke it someplace else.

And this thread is done. Cho was a murderer and a scumbag. I don't care what he was armed with. He shot unsuspecting people. Many of them in the back of the head while they were sitting at a desk. Kind of an irrelvant data point for self defense, wouldn't you say?