The AoG PIF Berrys 124gr HHP journey

[vaalpens]

I have just received 25 Berry's 124gr 9mm HHP bullets in a PIF for evaluation. There has been testing done by snuffy of these bullets which indicated that they don't hold up when tested into a wax medium.

Since I have a few other expanding JHP's I have tested and are planning to test them for expansion in water jugs, I decided to throw my name in the hat for these HHP's, and test them for accuracy and then expansion.

Berry's only recommend a velocity of 1100fps. So since I will be testing these in 357sig, I decided to go with BE-86. I normally get good accuracy around 1250fps, so I will try to stay around the 1250fps, since accuracy is also important.

This is the first post with a few more coming up once I finalized the loads, then evaluated the load for accuracy, and then test it for expansion.

The first thing I do when I have a new bullet I want to try in 357sig is to perform some calculations/tests. Here are the results:

-Bullet length: .540"
-Target COL: 1.135"
-Calculated gap from case mouth the star ogive: 0.019"
-The calculated gap confirms that the 1.135" COL should work.
-I then loaded a dummy round to 1.135" COL. After crimping I measured 1.1355".
-I then performed another ogive to case mouth gap test by placing a sized case on top of the finished dummy. This showed a definite gap, so the 1.135" COL is a go.
-Next step was to do a plunk test. The bullet passed the plunk test.
-I then performed 4 cycle tests where the dummy round is cycled through my gun. The COL after each cycle was:
--1.1355"
--1.1350" (cycle 1)
--1.1350" (cycle 2)
--1.1350" (cycle 3)
--1.1350" (cycle 4)
-This test shows that the shape of the bullet is a perfect match for my 357sig gun and I did not see an setback
-I then inspected the bullet nose for any scrapes or nicks, just to make there is nothing I need to be concerned about. Nothing found. Another pass.
-The next test was a bathroom scale test. I push the bullet against a digital scale, hold it for about 5 seconds until it registers. If I see between 20 and 25lb, then it is a pass for me. I saw 22lbs.
-Finally I checked the COL again and measured 1.135". No setback.

At this point I know I have a bullet that will operate in 357sig without any setback. This is actually one of the best bullets I have tested so far for setback, since it had none at all. Not even a few thousands of an inch.

Next step will be to finalize my load data. I am leaning towards using BE-86, but I will confirm my loads before I perform the actual tests.

Thanks again for AOG sending these bullets to me in a PIF.

 

[SlowFuse]

I am also loading up some of these from an AoG PIF tonight.

I'll be using them in 9mm at around 1000 fps.

 

[vaalpens]

I am also loading up some of these from an AoG PIF tonight.

I'll be using them in 9mm at around 1000 fps.

Thanks for the update. Please let us know how they test for you.

 

[vaalpens]

I have decided on my load data for these HHP's.

I looked at my test results for 357sig using 124gr RMR JHP, 125gr MG JHP, Sierra 125gr JHP and 124gr Berrys HBFTTP bullets, and decided on BE-86, 1.135" COL, and loads of 7.4gr, 7.6gr and 7.8gr.

This range covers all the most accurate loads I tested with BE-86 and should put me in the 1240-1280fps range.

I have a few bullets left which will be used to test for expansion with my selected load after the test. Hopefully testing will be done within 2 weeks.

Here are the loads that will be tested:

 

[Artofgolf]

Expansion?

...I'll be using them in 9mm at around 1000 fps.

Thanks for the update. Please let us know how they test for you.

Yes, we are looking forward to the test results.

 

[SlowFuse]

What do you use to test expansion?

I've never used anything except stacked pine boards and wet phone books. I know it's nothing like ballistic gelatin but im a low tech guy.

 

[vaalpens]

What do you use to test expansion?

I've never used anything except stacked pine boards and wet phone books. I know it's nothing like ballistic gelatin but im a low tech guy.

I am low tech also and will have to rely on one gallon milk jugs filled with water. My testing is more to compare results and having some fun doing it.

 

[azemon]

I have loaded these with 4.4 gr of Bullseye. Out of a Glock model 26 I get 1074 fps. This is at 5' from muzzle. Nice controlable recoil. Accuracy is good. Looking forward to your results as I have yet to test for penetration/expansion.

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks for sharing your load data and experience with the HHP's.

I actually went out early this morning to evaluate my loads, but the forest service has put a fire restriction on the Tonto national Forest. This also means shooting is not allowed. I'm not sure when I will be able to evaluate these loads, but I will post an update once I found an alternate site, or when the restriction has been lifted.

 

[mdi]

Jes a quick question; If Berry's recommends 1,100 fps, why are you pushing them to 1,250-1,280 fps?

 

[azemon]

If it weren't for the Forest Service we wouldn't have ANY forests! RIGHT! more GUBMENT assistance. Forgot to add I am using CCI 100 primers with an AOL of 1.086

 

[vaalpens]

Jes a quick question; If Berry's recommends 1,100 fps, why are you pushing them to 1,250-1,280 fps?

I don't really have a load in 357sig for 1,100fps. So if wanted to get to 1,100fps, then I would have loaded 9mm.

I had some correspondence with Berry's and they indicated that the bullet should be able able to handle velocities over 1125fps, but to get ideal performance, then it needs to be kept below 1125fps.

 

[azemon]

Penetration/Expansion

These pics show the result of a Berry's 124gr Hybrid Hollow Point penetrating 4 layers of cotton t-shirt, 1 gallon jug of water and 4 layers of wash cloth then into 6 inches of sand.

https://goo.gl/photos/WbwcaveBfkdpRgLV7

 

[mdi]

No offence vaal, but your test is already flawed. Mfg says, 1100 fps and you choose to go with 1250 fps because you don't have a particular load for your .357 Sig. the test/comparison is gonna give skewed data, kinda like comparing a Toyota to a Corvette.

I'd like to see how the bullets designed for 1100 fps perform at 1100 fps or slower...

 

[vaalpens]

These pics show the result of a Berry's 124gr Hybrid Hollow Point penetrating 4 layers of cotton t-shirt, 1 gallon jug of water and 4 layers of wash cloth then into 6 inches of sand.

https://goo.gl/photos/WbwcaveBfkdpRgLV7

Thanks for sharing your load results. I think it confirms the test by snuffy showing that the bullet does not stay intact.

 

[vaalpens]

No offence vaal, but your test is already flawed. Mfg says, 1100 fps and you choose to go with 1250 fps because you don't have a particular load for your .357 Sig. the test/comparison is gonna give skewed data, kinda like comparing a Toyota to a Corvette.

I'd like to see how the bullets designed for 1100 fps perform at 1100 fps or slower...

No offence taken.

There has already been some testing done by some our forum members showing that the bullet does not perform that well, even at the recommended velocity.

I agree with you that my test is flawed if I was trying to find the optimal performance point for the bullet, but my test is basically to see how the bullet performs at a higher velocity. I will test for accuracy and expansion at higher velocities, and hopefully it will provide some additional data points for somebody looking at using the HHP's.

 

[mdi]

Sorry vaal, I guess I thought you were testing the bullet from scratch or a comparison with other bullets. My apologies...

 

[azemon]

Oppps, I was using Federal No. 100 small pistol primers. Not CCI 100. Apologies

 

[vaalpens]

I has been a while since I received these bullets, but I was finally able to chrono the loads and test them at 15yards.

My plan was to follow this load up with an expansion test for the selected load, but it seems I still have some work left. The loads did not produce any reasonable grouping for me, plus it looks like the ES numbers could be a contributing factor to the bad grouping.

I have had this issue before and changed the load from BE-86 to CFE Pistol and lowered the velocity. It could just be that these really should be closer to the recommended 1100fps velocity to perform better.

Following are the chrono and grouping results:

357sig
COL: 1.135"
Berrys, 124gr, HHP, BE86, 7.4gr, WSP
Average: 1206
ES: 92
SD: 51.7
Force: 400
PF: 149
Velocities: 1147, 1234, 1239, ,
Grouping: 6.0"

357sig
COL: 1.135"
Berrys, 124gr, HHP, BE86, 7.6gr, WSP
Average: 1251
ES: 61
SD: 23.6
Force: 431
PF: 155
Velocities: 1248, 1255, 1274, 1266, 1213
Grouping: 6.25"

357sig
COL: 1.135"
Berrys, 124gr, HHP, BE86, 7.8gr, WSP
Average: 1278
ES: 33
SD: 12.9
Force: 450
PF: 158
Velocities: 1283, 1256, 1280, 1284, 1289
Grouping: 7.5"

 

[vaalpens]

I completed my evaluation of the HHP bullets this weekend.

After the last 357sig test, I decided to load the remaining bullets in 9mm and target a 1100fps velocity. Since I had limited bullets left, I basically had one shot at it and got reasonably close to it. Maybe another .2gn would have given me the 1100fps.

The load was tested at 15 yards with my SIG SP2022, 3.9" barrel. Grouping was not great, but something I could work with and improve on. The measured grouping was 2.42", which obviously is not where I want to be.

Following is the chrono result:

SIG SP2022, 3.9" barrel
9mm
COL: 1.060"
Berrys, 124gn, HHP, BE86, 5.6gn, WSP
Average: 1059
ES: 68
SD: 27
Force: 309
PF: 131
Velocities: 1057, 1061, 1104, 1040, 1036

I then tested a remaining round in 1 gallon water jugs for expansion. Every quality SD round I have tested so far ends up in the 3rd jug.

I am still looking for the bullet after this test. The bullet must have broken apart because I found only one small piece, and a 3rd jug with multiple exit holes.

It just seems to me this bullet will take a lot of effort to get the perfect velocity for the perfect expansion. So far I don't see any reason why I should buy the HHP's.

Thanks again to AOG for sending these bullets to me. I would have liked to see some better results, but it seems some times it just takes a bit more effort to get some good results.

 

[Artofgolf]

I completed my evaluation of the HHP bullets this weekend... So far I don't see any reason why I should buy the HHP's...

Yep, that's what I thought also. Good job giving them the run thru the mill.
We might focus on the V-Crown, as it seems to be a superior performer and stay with the tried & true Gold-Dot for a plated HP.

Thanks for the report, vaalpens!

 

[vaalpens]

Yep, that's what I thought also. Good job giving them the run thru the mill.
We might focus on the V-Crown, as it seems to be a superior performer and stay with the tried & true Gold-Dot for a plated HP.

Thanks for the report, vaalpens!

I validated my testing this weekend after the poor showing of the HHP's by shooting one of my 40S&W Hornady Critical Defense 165gr FTX bullets into the water jugs. It held up very well and the bullet was retrieved from the third jug as expected.

Thanks again for you generosity.