The battle over "reasonable" gun regulations

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What the heck does this mean. If ALL THE GUN LAWS CURRENTLY IN PLACE don't have a provable benefit; then that means you ARE IN FAVOR OF REVOKING ALL GUN LAWS. How can you say that you aren't in favor of revoking all gun laws, and then state that NOT ONE current law is of benefit.

You need to slow down and read a little closer.

I said there is no evidence that any gun law as ever had a positive long term benefit to society.

I also said that lobbying for the revocation of all gun laws would be useless.

I never said I wasn't personally in favor of revoking all gun laws. I said that I was not arguing for that to happen or lobbying my politicians for it because I know it's not going to happen and is not favored by the majority of the citizens. I personally don't think the crime rate would change much, but I know that belief isn't widely held.

I do say that if we can agree that all the gun laws on the books today have had no measurable impact that it might be possible to lobby for the revocation of some of the more blatant infringements and at the very least stop passing more.

You're angered for some reason by my posts and trying to "catch me" in an inconsistency. Not sure why, but you won't. I've been saying the same things for 20+ years now.

It's really not very complicated.
 
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by genius
It means what it says. It's plain English, and the meaning of those words have not changed since they were written.

by christcorp
It obviously DOESN'T means exactly what it says. Because there are too many people with too many interpretations of what it says....

...Yes, the 2nd amendment is very clear.

Not only do you fail to grasp the most elementary aspects of the written English word, you continue to make no sense at all.

Like TR said, slow down, read close. It's not as complicated as you want it to be.
 
The meaning of the 2nd Amendment is clear, in plain English. If, however, we have doubts about it's meaning, we can read what the Founding Fathers said about it in the Debates.

The problem is that there are people who don't like what it says, and they will throw up any piece of sophistry they can devise, and hope it confuses other people.
 
TR; I didn't say that YOU SPECIFICALLY are for getting rid of ALL gun laws. But I did say that there definitely are those in this and other threads who DO believe that there should be no laws at all concerning gun or weapons. And that any law that is passed concerning guns or weapons is an infringement on our 2nd amendment rights. That is an accurate statement.

CoRoMo; I grasp the written English language quite well. And I have read, studied, and debated the entire constitution; including the 2nd amendment; numerous times in both my academic and professional life. Including my personal life in forums such as this. Don't try and think what I KNOW or what I DON'T KNOW. That isn't even of importance. If you read my posts, you would see that my argument is that the 2nd amendment; it's interpretation; the exercise of; and the role of the "State" are not as clear as you would like to believe it is. And there are plenty of opinions/interpretations that are definitely different than yours. Just because "YOU" believe that you are 100% accurate with the meaning and interpretation of the 2nd amendment and the exercise of; doesn't mean that everyone else sees it exactly the same as you; or that you are indeed 100% correct. You may think your are all knowing in this interpretation, but that doesn't mean it is so.

And there is no way that you can tell me that I don't know what the 2nd amendment actually means; or that I just don't LIKE what it says and therefor are rejecting your interpretation. Why is that? Because I have NEVER ONCE told you what MY interpretation/definition of the 2nd amendment or it's exercising of is. But the FACT; YES, FACT; remains that there are 50 states that have slightly different interpretations. Let alone millions of citizens. Personally; I don't believe that there are too many differing opinions or interpretations on the 2nd amendment. I think MOST people agree on the meaning of it.

However; I believe that the difference in meaning/interpretation comes in the power the state has in managing the exercise of the 2nd amendment. I believe the key word that leads to different levels of state involvement is the word "INFRINGE". So people define infringe simply as meaning denying or not allowing. Therefor, many states (And their citizens) believe that as long as the end result is that you ARE ALLOWED TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS; then any management system put in place by the state isn't an "Infringement" but rather a power granted to the state by the 10th amendment for the benefit and public safety of the entire citizenry. However; there will be others that believe the word "Infringe" means that there should be NO INVOLVEMENT WHATSOEVER by the government. And of course, there are those that fall somewhere in between.

Some here believe that they know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, exactly what the 2nd amendment means; what is implied by the individual's responsibilities; and that there is no room for debate. Sorry, but that is wrong. And the reason it is wrong is because the "Meaning" of the 2nd amendment is strictly just your opinion. And because someone else has a different opinion, doesn't make them wrong. Not one court; not even the Heller decision; ever clarified the power that the state has in managing the exercising of the 2nd amendment. The best they could decide; which doesn't apply to the 50 states because the decision was on the District of Columbia and they aren't a state; was that the 2nd amendment applied to the CITIZENS and not just to the state and their "Militia". Fantastic!!! We all agree that the citizens are allowed to keep and bear arms. Well, you're allow freedom of speech too. But that freedom also has limitations, responsibilities, and government involvement. The 2nd amendment is not different. But unfortunately, unlike the 1st amendment, we don't have all 50 states agreeing on the same level of government involvement.
 
And there is no way that you can tell me that I don't know what the 2nd amendment actually means; or that I just don't LIKE what it says and therefor are rejecting your interpretation. Why is that? Because I have NEVER ONCE told you what MY interpretation/definition of the 2nd amendment or it's exercising of is.
So show some courage and tell us what your definition is.

But the FACT; YES, FACT; remains that there are 50 states that have slightly different interpretations
Which is irrelevant. There are people who are willing to assign any interpretation they choose to any part of the Constitution. That doesn't mean the meaning is unclear, it just means there are a lot of sophists with agendas.
 
So show some courage and tell us what your definition is.


Which is irrelevant. There are people who are willing to assign any interpretation they choose to any part of the Constitution. That doesn't mean the meaning is unclear, it just means there are a lot of sophists with agendas.
All hail Vern Humphrey as the final arbitor of the meaning of the Bill of rights. (just pokin ya a little).

I'll tell you what the second ammendment means to me.......It means whatever the Supreme Court of the United States says it means. That's their only job, to ajudicate the legal cases that have constitutional precedent. It's interpretation becomes the law of the land. So they affirmed the basic right of the citizen to posess firearms. They purposely brought up the phrase "Reasonable restrictions" and left what constitutes reasonable restriction to lower courts to decide and eventually filter back up to them. Nowhere in the 2nd does it mention reasonable restrictions but the court recognized that restrictions exist and left the decision of what is reasonable or not to the lower courts to decide on a casr by case basis. They could just have easily said that any restriction to the rights of the people to own firearms is contrary to the 2nd. But they didn't.
I suggest that all you gun owners who feel that any and all restrictions concerning gun ownership or posession are unreasonable, pool your resources and hire a lawyer to present the case to the supreme court. See how far you get.
 
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We all agree that the citizens are allowed to keep and bear arms. Well, you're allow freedom of speech too. But that freedom also has limitations, responsibilities, and government involvement.

You don't seem to grasp the underlying concept of rights. The government does not ALLOW you to speak freely, and it does not ALLOW you to keep and bear arms. It can merely prevent you from doing so.
 
Here is a prime example of Orwellian "word twisting," by NeoLiberals, or "Progressives," to change policy. The words of the Democrats' favorite first Socialist dictatorial President, Woodrow Wilson.



"Back in 1912, when Woodrow Wilson successfully ran for the presidency, he told his compatriots, "We are in the presence of a new organization of society." Our time marks "a new social stage, a new era of human relationships, a new stagesetting for the drama of life," and "the old political formulas do not fit the present problems: they read now like documents taken out of a forgotten age." What Thomas Jefferson once taught is now, he insisted, quite out of date. It is "what we used to think in the old-fashioned days when life was very simple." Above all else, he hoped to persuade his compatriots to get "beyond the Declaration of Independence." That document "did not mention the questions of our day," he told them. "It is of no consequence to us. It is an eminently practical document, meant for the use of practical men; not a thesis for philosophers, but a whip for tyrants; not a theory of government, but a program of action"--once of use, outdated now." Prof. Paul Rehe @ POWERLINE

Democrats and RINOs haven't changed a lick, other than to intensify their efforts to destroy our Constitution and Republic. They change the original meaning of anything in the Constitution they want, to further their cause.


Happy Independence Day to all!! Better celebrate it. It might just be the last one, if the powers-that-be in Obamaland decide it should be outlawed as "Hate & Sedition Day."
L.W.
 
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I'll tell you what the second ammendment means to me.......It means whatever the Supreme Court of the United States says it means.

If this makes any sense, then the 2nd Amendment means nothing to you beyond what the dolts sitting on the SCOTUS bench want it to mean? When their seats change butts, and a new bench holds a new and different meaning, your beliefs change as well? I think we found the problem then.

You sure have a solid foundation from which you draw your beliefs don't you?
 
I'll tell you what the second ammendment means to me.......It means whatever the Supreme Court of the United States says it means.
Or to translate that into plain English, "The Constitution means whatever the power structure says it means, and we peasants must bow and say "Yes, Master.""

Tell me, if that's your view of the Constitution, why have a Constitution? What good is a Constitution whose meaning changes daily?
 
If this makes any sense, then the 2nd Amendment means nothing to you beyond what the dolts sitting on the SCOTUS bench want it to mean? When their seats change butts, and a new bench holds a new and different meaning, your beliefs change as well? I think we found the problem then.

You sure have a solid foundation from which you draw your beliefs don't you?
Yes I do have a solid foundation to draw my beliefs. Why would you think otherwise? I believe in the American system of government and checks and balances, I am also a realist and deal in the here and now, not in some good ole day when everything was better (which it wasn't) or that everything tomorrow is going to be worse and we'll be shooting each other in the streets in the next year or two.
I guess you need a primer in American government 101. There are 3 branches of government. The Executive, the Legislative and the Judicial. Without going into too much detail of each one, the Supreme Court determines if the laws passed by the legislative branch and the edicts passed by the executive branch pass constitutional muster. Their word is the law of the land. That is their only job. To protect the constitution for all citizens. Come out of your bunker and get a clue. That's the American way and by God it's a great system. Best in the world.
Happy 4th of July to you. Last one indeed! I obviously have much more faith in America and our society than you do.
 
Or to translate that into plain English, "The Constitution means whatever the power structure says it means, and we peasants must bow and say "Yes, Master.""

Tell me, if that's your view of the Constitution, why have a Constitution? What good is a Constitution whose meaning changes daily?
So you're saying the Scotus Decision on Heller was wrong? Yes or No?
 
With the way the world is over-populated, we do need some rules and regulations.
1) Anyone who has an addiction to mind altering substances should not be allowed to operate, control or posses in public any mechanical device that could impact others in any manner or fashion (A Heroin addicted Farmer therefore could IMO still operate his tractor if he did so in his field and totally alone.
2) Anyone with a verifiable violent, anti-social history should be denied the right to buy, own or posses a concealable weapon of any type including self manufactured. This means a Rifle or Shotgun could be bought by this individual.
3) Anyone with a restraining order or conviction of violent anti-social crime may not carry a Long Arm off of his Real Property, right would not extend to vehicle of any sort.
4) Anyone mentioned in the above 3 paragraphs that are convicted of not adhering to the above rules will have their freedom revoked until that time that society deems them safe.
5) Anyone that is verifiably deemed to be found mentally incompetent, mentally unstable or emotionally unreliable could have their right to own, operate or posses in public any mechanical device denied.
6) List of mechanical devices:
Anything that is run with or off of a motor, engine except certain tools (tractor would be deemed a tool).
Specific Power tools.
Firearms.
Chemicals (not to include fertilizer and/or weed killer).
Explosives including reloading equipment.
 
Which is irrelevant. There are people who are willing to assign any interpretation they choose to any part of the Constitution. That doesn't mean the meaning is unclear, it just means there are a lot of sophists with agendas.

Ummmm; not true. MEANING isn't accurate or clear until it is ACCEPTABLE. Which in it's own form means that until there is a "Consensus" where the definition is "Agreed Upon"; there is no MEANING. If a person from the 1920's was frozen and woken up 80 years later, the word "GAY" would NOT MEAN or have reference to "Homosexual Behavior". It would MEAN; Happy, go lucky, gleeful, etc... Not until s/he recognized the consensus that the acceptable definition was now different, would there be MEANING as applied contextually.

So you can believe that you KNOW the MEANING of the 2nd amendment all you want. And it's quite possible that the meaning you have assigned will be the consensus by many others. But until the consensus of all 50 states is the same as yours, the interpretation and therefor MEANING of the 2nd amendment will not be clear. But again; I don't believe that the meaning of the 2nd amendment is the issue. I think there is a consensus on the MEANING of the 2nd amendment. And I believe that your meaning, my meaning, and most of the country's meaning is close to the same. The problem is in the 10th amendment where the state's power allows for interpretation as to the level of power the state has in managing the rights of it's citizens. Most, if not the VAST MAJORITY of citizens believe that all actions; including what you want to call rights; require boundaries, limitations, and limits to the exercising of said rights. This is to ensure that one person's rights don't infringe on another person's rights. E.g. free speech limitations.

Anyway; this is where the problem exists. In my state, the state doesn't deny lawful and responsible people from exercising their right to keep and bear arms. Will some define an instant background check as an infringement of their 2nd amendment right? Yes, some will. But the consensus of the citizens is that as long as the check is instant; which it is; then the individual's rights are not being infringed upon. And because the consensus of the citizens is that "Infringing" by the government means that the government denies or delays without cause an individual's ability to exercise their right to keep and bear arms; and being our state government isn't doing this; then they aren't Infringing on our Rights. We don't require a permit or license to Keep and bear arms. There is no infringement. Now maybe in your state they are infringing. But not in my state.

The problem is that there are a lot of "Areas" in which the 2nd amendment, the 10th amendment, and the court system hasn't been clear on. For instance; (An example. Not saying I agree or disagree); the subject of WHERE a citizen is allowed to "Keep and Bear" arms is debatable. It can be argued that the right to keep and bear arms can mean for personal defense on one's property. Which could lead to an argument that except on private property, there is no right defined to allow open or concealed carry outside of one's personal private property. This is actually a position allowed by some states/cities. Just as there are some that limit the number of rounds a magazine can handle. None of this clear; and is up for debate and interpretation. Nothing in the 2nd amendment says that a citizen is free to have ANY TYPE of weapon; ANY TYPE of caliber or ammunition; or ANY TYPE of accessories. If a state limits hand guns to Non-Magnum calibers; are they Infringing on your right to "Keep and Bear arms"? That depends on the consensus. At the time of the writing, it was a black powder world. basically a single shot world. It can be argued that magazine capacity is an area the state can manage.

You don't have to agree with these positions. I personally don't agree with them. But I do agree that the "MEANING" of the 2nd amendment and the 10th amendment, leaves room for these positions to be argued. And that is what needs to be agreed upon first. Once we do that, we can move on to getting a consensus so that we can carry concealed in ALL 50 states; not have different requirements in different states. and have the same limitations. Then we can have government involvement that is meaningful and effective. But again; there is absolutely NOTHING in the 2nd amendment that mentions the "State's" power to manage the exercise of rights. And because the 10th amendment gives power to the state and people for ALL matters not spelled out in the first 9 amendments of the bill of rights; then you can't say that the MEANING is clear. The "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" might be perfectly clear; but that doesn't mean that the State can't Manage the exercising of that right. As long as you are Allowed to exercise the right, that's all that matters constitutionally. HOW/WHERE is another matter all together.
 
So you're saying the Scotus Decision on Heller was wrong? Yes or No?

How did you get that out of what he wrote?

He wrote this:

Or to translate that into plain English, "The Constitution means whatever the power structure says it means, and we peasants must bow and say "Yes, Master.""

Tell me, if that's your view of the Constitution, why have a Constitution? What good is a Constitution whose meaning changes daily?

And your interpretation is that he was saying something about the Heller decision?
 
Yes I do have a solid foundation to draw my beliefs. Why would you think otherwise?

Your own words, that's all. Rather than learning what Madison wrote, you'd rather punt your convictions up to whomever happens to be wearing the robe. Bravo.
 
I guess you need a primer in American government 101.
No, you need a primer in American government 101.

Start with the Preamble to the Constitution (you know, the part that begins "We, the people" and go from there. Don't neglect the Debates.

At some point you will come to understand that we, the people created the Constitution, and we created it to serve us and protect our rights. We have both a right and a duty to keep goverment within the limits established by the Constitution -- regardless of what any politician or lawyer says.
 
How did you get that out of what he wrote?

He wrote this:



And your interpretation is that he was saying something about the Heller decision?
Vern changed the name from Supreme Court to "Power structure" this implies that it is not a fair representation of the people but a stacked deck that changes daily based on whim and not on an honest interpretation of the Constitution. Of course you have left leaning judges and right leaning justices but the mix reflects a general cross section of society. I guess I'm naive in thinking that the justices are principled individuals who attempt to judge cases based on their constitutional merits and not "power brokers" who secede their authority to the latest political whim. Hence, if they are just a "Power Structure", then the decisions they make are really not relevant to our system of government. That's why I asked if the Heller decision was relevant to the poster in view of his shoddy opinion of the Supreme Court.
 
Vern changed the name from Supreme Court to "Power structure" this implies that it is not a fair representation of the people but a stacked deck that changes daily based on whim and not on an honest interpretation of the Constitution.
Yeah, you really need that primer in US Government 101.

You see, we have three (count 'em, three) branches of government. The legislative branch passes bills, the executive signs them into law, and the courts interpret them (and sometimes create law in the process) when there is a dispute. Then we have extra-constitutional things like Executive Orders and Federal Regulatory Agencies.

This power structure is what the Founding Fathers feared would usurp our liberties. And they were exactly right.
 
Your own words, that's all. Rather than learning what Madison wrote, you'd rather punt your convictions up to whomever happens to be wearing the robe. Bravo.
Those same "We the People" also set up the three branches of government and gave the Supreme Court the final authority of what is the law of the land. They also gave the people the right to petition the legal system for redress if the law was wrong.
CoRoMo, you and I will never agree. Your signiture line says it all.
The Second Amendment of our Bill of Rights is my concealed weapons permit, period!
To me, this says that you will follow no law that does not agree with your interpretation of the BOR. It must be nice to know that the entire judicial system in our country is wrong and only you and Ted Nugent are right.
 
Those same "We the People" also set up the three branches of government and gave the Supreme Court the final authority of what is the law of the land.
Please quote that section of the Constitution that "gave the Supreme Court the final authority of what is the law of the land."
They also gave the people the right to petition the legal system for redress if the law was wrong.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances
Not petition "the legal system" if the law is "wrong."

And we have a right to do more that than -- including electing officials who will follow the Constitution, and voting out those who won't.
 
Please quote that section of the Constitution that "gave the Supreme Court the final authority of what is the law of the land."


Not petition "the legal system" if the law is "wrong."

And we have a right to do more that than -- including electing officials who will follow the Constitution, and voting out those who won't.
The Supreme court is where you go to petition them to interpret the prevailing law and see if it meets a constitutional test. They are the final arbitors. Their only job is constitutional law. Once they decide, there is no higher authority. At least that's how I understand it.

Sorry all, I have to go meet the kids and grandkids for the weekend now. But as the Gov. of Cali once said, "I'll be back".
 
The Supreme court is where you go to petition them to interpret the prevailing law and see if it meets a constitutional test.
Really?

All those on-line petitions, all those petitions gathered up at various public demonstratons go to the Supreme Court? They intercept and read all the letters written to Congressmen, too?
 
"And, if we can identify a few laws that are particularly "overboard" we should fight to get those removed as well. Heller left the door wide open for many of those, including returning machine guns to the market."

Yeah lets do that, return machine guns to the open non regulated market place. That is pure genius. Maybe small armor vehicles mounting anything smaller than a 105mm gun and slightly modified RPGs as well.

There is the deep end and wait, there you are going over it.
 
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