The Case for the AR-15 "Pistol"

[kilibreaux]

Like many, for years I thought an AR-15 pistol was a ridiculous notion.
Then I started REALLY looking at the concept...and changed my mind completely!
By simply mounting a smooth buffer tube onto an AR lower, we can mount a barrel less than 16" on the upper! Yes, the lower must be "registered" as a "pistol" (here in the Great State of California), but so what...we get to have as short a barrel as we want! For those of use who build our own lowers from 80%, there is no restriction for obvious reasons. Those who buy a lower OTC as it were can "go pistol" by opting for a STRIPPED lower which must be sold as a "pistol" since it could go either pistol or rifle.

Why a "pistol" AR-15? because it's COMPACT! Not only is it compact, it's one of the most lethal combinations of firepower available to the "home consumer" today! In a "free State" where one can legally own normal capacity magazines up to and including 100 round drums, an 11.5" AR "pistol" fitted with a 100 round drum is a VERY potent deterent! Velocity loss from 16" to 11.5" is only about 100fps on average which means this subcompact "rifle-pistol" is capable of making hits out to several hundred meters if the SHOOTER can do the job, and the round delivers in excess of 1,000 lb-ft of KE (.44 Magnum level power) x 30-100 shots!

But it gets better...enter the .300. BUILT to work efficiently from 8-9" barrels, and BUILT to handle subsonic loads at bullet weights to 240 grains, the Blackout is a formidable "pistol!"

While I'm sure someone could easily "hunt" with an AR pistol, that's really not the point. The 2A does not require that citizens "explain" their "need" to own whatever...they simply have the right to own what is equivalent to what the government has...but that's another forum. The fact is, being able to have an AR-15 that can be fitted into a computer bag...a standard size briefcase is worth taking note. As good as "traditional" handguns are, they cannot compete with a cut-down rifle.

 

[gunnutery]

I have yet to fire a rifle in a confined space, but I'm sure someone with experience will be along to inform us that it's EXTREMELY loud, especially once it's in a shorter package. Which begins to negate it's use for home defense, unless you're going to put on electric ear muffs.

Not being legally allowed to shoulder it is also a detriment. I've read that using a single point sling can be advantageous to aiming, but have never tried it myself yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to owning pistol versions of rifles, I'd just rather be able to have an SBR so you could have good legal contacts on the shoulder and support hand. My state doesn't allow for the SBR process unfortunately, even if they did, I'm not in the mood to pay $200 and invasive paperwork. In the mean time, I've got other niches to fill.

They do look fun though.

 

[atomd]

Not being legally allowed to shoulder it is also a detriment. I've read that using a single point sling can be advantageous to aiming, but have never tried it myself yet.

I'd rather have an SBR too but you can actually shoulder a pistol as well, you just need to scrunch up on it. Now there's the SIG SB15 which is legal and makes it a bit easier to shoulder. If you use a KAK buffer tube and a SIG SB15 you're not going to have any issues shouldering it at all....and it's ATF approved.

Normally I wouldn't want an AR pistol but since these parts have hit the market it's making me consider it.

 

[DT Guy]

While you retain the mag capacity of an AR, you lose a great deal of a 5.56's effectiveness from a really short barrel:from around 3,082fps at 16" to about 2,172fps at 6". And of course, a bullet like a 5.56 NEEDS velocity to make it effective, as compared to, say, a .45ACP hollowpoint.

Combined with gunnutery's excellent point about noise and blast, (I'd be loathe to fire one without hearing protection ANYWHERE, much less in a closed room), and I think traditional handguns have an advantage that outweighs the mag capacity of a pistol AR.

Larry

 

[jehu]

The noise and the blast will not be a problem if the threat is iminent and you life is in danger but for home defense I'd rather have the noise and blast from a shotgun!

 

[DT Guy]

So fear makes you disregard physical stimuli? That hasn't been my experience-and I'd rather not lose my hearing permanently.

Larry

 

[jerkface11]

While you retain the mag capacity of an AR, you lose a great deal of a 5.56's effectiveness from a really short barrel:from around 3,082fps at 16" to about 2,172fps at 6".

A quick look at the ballistic calculator shows that that is the amount of velocity you would lose if shooting at 275 yards.

 

[Armor Snail]

I like that one can be loaded and ready in my vehicle.

 

[crazysccrmd]

If you don't want the hassle of doing an SBR just build a pistol with a Sig brace on it. Legally a pistol, effectively an SBR if you choose to use it that way.

 

[68wj]

Been thinking about a pistol build in 6.8 SPC. With ~1350 ft/lbs from an 8" barrel @ 100 yards to a 77gr 5.56's 850 ft/lbs, I could see it being a viable hunting pistol.

 

[W.E.G.]

I've given great consideration to all the different types of weapons that I might employ in the hallway between my bedroom and my bathroom.

Rifle - NO

Shotgun - NO

Rifle or Shotgun cobbled down to smaller size - NO

Large caliber semi-automatic handgun with double-stack magazine - YES


If I needed something to hose down the hatch of an armored vehicle, I'd probably pick something else.
Like that's ever gonna happen.

 

[mac66]

Nothing illegal about shouldering an AR pistol. Holding the buffer tube to the shoulder is common and not illegal. In my state an AR pistol is as close to an SBR as we can get

Mine has a 11.5" bbl. I've used in 3 gun matches and I can carry it with my pistol carry permit. I don't typically walk around with it but I do carry it inside my car occasionally.

Last fall I swapped sights on it (Primary Arms dot) and took it to the range. From the shoulder I was shooting 3-4" groups standing at 100 yards. When up at hunting property it is pretty easy to hit the 20" steel D target I have hung at the end of my food plot 170 yards away from standing.

 

[Sam1911]

The very best thing about AR-15 pistols is that they can be AR-15 "SBR" carbines either by registering them or using the SIG "Who are we Kidding" brace.

Having run defensive scenarios and match stages many times with these hand-rifle setups, the failures of these as "pistols" when shot against traditional handguns are EPIC. Running them in an accuracy-weighted, timed course of fire, against a Glock or 1911 or whatever is just an exercise in embarrassment, and that says a lot about whether I'd choose one for home-defense.

However, run one like a carbine, stocked, or shouldered at least, and the picture changes quite a bit. Hits and times come a lot closer to what you might expect to achieve with a handgun, and the choice becomes more reasonable.


(Personally, after a lot of testing, I don't favor long guns of any sort over handguns at close range. I can put lots of holes where I want them a lot faster with a handgun than I can with a rifle or shotgun inside of maybe 15-20 yards. But regardless, operating an AR-15 as a pistol is just a far distant last place.)

 

[bflee]

If someone was in my house the sound would not bother me. It would be a problem for them. To me an AR pistol is useless. My 16" with collapsible stock works fine in closed spaces. I have an Xdm40 anyway for the house.

 

[gunnutery]

So, you pull up to the range with your AR pistols. The only spot left is next to local Johny "by-the-book" ATF agent. One AR pistol just has the buffer tube, the other one has a Sig strap stock; do you shoulder them?

The only reason I ask is because it's been myimpression from other discussions on THR that ATF frowns on shouldering rifle-pistols because of the current legal definitions of pistols and rifles.

 

[benEzra]

Why a "pistol" AR-15? because it's COMPACT! Not only is it compact, it's one of the most lethal combinations of firepower available to the "home consumer" today! In a "free State" where one can legally own normal capacity magazines up to and including 100 round drums, an 11.5" AR "pistol" fitted with a 100 round drum is a VERY potent deterent! Velocity loss from 16" to 11.5" is only about 100fps on average which means this subcompact "rifle-pistol" is capable of making hits out to several hundred meters if the SHOOTER can do the job, and the round delivers in excess of 1,000 lb-ft of KE (.44 Magnum level power) x 30-100 shots!

I think you'll find that a .223 drum is a fun range toy, but nothing but a hindrance in defensive style shooting, especially if you hang one off a pistol. Go shoot a USPSA or 3-gun match at your local range with a well-set-up carbine, and then shoot one with an AR pistol saddled with a nearly-5-pound drum magazine, and compare your scores. You might be surprised.

The noise and the blast will not be a problem if the threat is iminent and you life is in danger but for home defense I'd rather have the noise and blast from a shotgun!

The flash from a shorty .223 will be an issue if it flash-blinds you in dim light, so that you can't see well after the first shot. And the concussion from a shorty will be many times more intense than an unbraked 16" .223 or a shotgun.

 

[crazysccrmd]

I would still shoulder fire it. It is legal to do therefore he can do nothing about it. "Frowned upon" doesn't mean illegal, and the Sig brace is very obviously designed to be capable of shoulder fire. The ATF knows that and still approved it for use on legally defined pistols.

 

[Sam1911]

Yup. Legal, so do it.

 

[FrankCastleThePunisher]

The rubberized Sig brace is the reason I bought the Sig M400 11.5 AR pistol for car/ truck carry using 69 to 77 grain ammo. With my carry permit I'm not afraid of getting stopped by LE carrying the pistol in a bag outside my vehicle loaded with ammo. The Sig M400 pistol is still like a SBR at 28" without the $200.00 stamp.

 

[tuj]

What about RRA's pistol that uses a piston system and no buffer tube? Looks more comfortable to actually put to the shoulder.

 

[crazysccrmd]

10.5" pistol next to a standard 16" carbine. The brace is solid and works well. The pistol isn't quite finishes but it shows the size of the brace when mounted.

 

[justice06rr]

I think you'll find that a .223 drum is a fun range toy, but nothing but a hindrance in defensive style shooting, especially if you hang one off a pistol. Go shoot a USPSA or 3-gun match at your local range with a well-set-up carbine, and then shoot one with an AR pistol saddled with a nearly-5-pound drum magazine, and compare your scores. You might be surprised.

We're not talking about running an AR pistol against a regular handgun here. That's just silly.

Why would you run an AR pistol on a 3-gun or USPSA anyway, when you can use a normal 16" carbine with a regular handgun (and shotgun for 3gun)? I don't even think you are allowed to use an AR or AK pistol in 3gun as your handgun or rifle. You'd need to use a regular Carbine and handgun for those events, as well as IDPA/USPSA.

 

[husbandofaromanian]

Mine is a single shot Contender pistol with an 11.5" SSK barrel and a silencer... A very compact .223 pistol because there is no hardware for semi-auto fire... Silencer eliminates fireball and makes shooting a short barrel .223 a real pleasure...

 

[Sam1911]

We're not talking about running an AR pistol against a regular handgun here. That's just silly.

Why would you run an AR pistol on a 3-gun or USPSA anyway, when you can use a normal 16" carbine with a regular handgun (and shotgun for 3gun)? I don't even think you are allowed to use an AR or AK pistol in 3gun as your handgun or rifle. You'd need to use a regular Carbine and handgun for those events, as well as IDPA/USPSA.

Well, it sort of begs the question, does it not? If the question is indeed of making the case for an AR-15 pistol, then we have to figure out what it does well, and more importantly, what it does BETTER than something else. In other words, what circumstances would have to be present to make it the best choice for a task.

So far, about the best we can do is to fail to come up with scenarios in which it might NOT suck too bad, and certainly haven't found one in which it is the superior, or even the equal to other more traditional choices.

So we can't use it and expect to prevail in games, when a trophy is on the line. But we might use it when our LIVES are on the line? That obviously doesn't make sense.

So we come right back around to the (non-prejudicial) idea that it best fits into the category of "range toy."

 

[Lloyd Smale]

my buddy has two a 10.5 and a 7.5. they are both LOUD. I wouldnt want to start shooting one inside a home. His 10.5 will do about 2600 max with 55s and his 7.5 does 2400. So expect a little more loss then your getting from ballistic calculators. Are they fun. You bet. Just wear double ear protection and they will put a smile on your face. Are they practical. NOPE. Now if you were getting a short barreled rifle made out of one id say go for it.