i have a terrier which is a decent self defense gun with the buffalo bore semi wadcutter or the 200 grain ammo. Being able to keep the gun on target for rapid accurate follow up shots is very important in self defense situations. The 180 gr hollowpoint i just ran across intrigues me also.
The Defensive Webley
- Thread starter Panzerschwein
- Start date
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Deaf Smith
Member
Looked up loads for the .38 S&W in Webley form. A company, Matt's Bullets, makes a 200 grain .361 just for the Webley. Same shape to.
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=308
Flatten that nose just a bit and that would be one heck of a load.
600-700 fps is quite achievable.
I might get 100 slugs from him and whip up some loads.
Deaf
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=308
Flatten that nose just a bit and that would be one heck of a load.
600-700 fps is quite achievable.
I might get 100 slugs from him and whip up some loads.
Deaf
AlexanderA
Member
Let's not forget the Enfield No. 2 Mk. I revolver, which is as nice a gun as the typical "war finish" Webley Mark IV. However, you probably want to avoid the Mk. I* and Mk. I** variations with their bobbed hammers, which are double-action only. On the other hand, the extended plastic stocks of those later Marks, with their ambidextrous thumb rests, are a definite improvement over the original wooden stocks. I have an Enfield No. 2 Mk. I that was made in 1930, which I retrofitted with the WW2 plastic stocks. In that configuration, I like it better than my Webley Mark IV. (Of course I saved the original wooden stocks in case I want to sell the gun later.)
The other major revolver using that .380/200 loading was the Lend-Lease S&W Victory with the 5" barrel. Australia recently released a large number of these as surplus, after putting them through arsenal Factory Thorough Repair (FTR). These are marked "D [broad arrow] D" (for the Australian "Department of Defence"). You can find these at gun shows for very reasonable prices.
I personally think that the S&W Victory is clearly superior to any of the top-break revolvers. Be aware, though, that some of the earlier imports of Lend-Lease S&W Victories (not the Australian ones) were badly converted by the importers to fire .38 Special. These should be avoided at all costs.
The other major revolver using that .380/200 loading was the Lend-Lease S&W Victory with the 5" barrel. Australia recently released a large number of these as surplus, after putting them through arsenal Factory Thorough Repair (FTR). These are marked "D [broad arrow] D" (for the Australian "Department of Defence"). You can find these at gun shows for very reasonable prices.
I personally think that the S&W Victory is clearly superior to any of the top-break revolvers. Be aware, though, that some of the earlier imports of Lend-Lease S&W Victories (not the Australian ones) were badly converted by the importers to fire .38 Special. These should be avoided at all costs.
Deaf Smith
Member
Yes I have a five screw 5 inch barrel RAAF .38 S&W. It came with plexiglass grips with aluminum backing. Inside the grip was for shiny 'circles' I thought were washers. On taking the grip apart and taking the crud off the pieces it turned out the top two were SIXPENCES. One a New Guinea six pence made in 1938 (had a hole in the middle of the sixpence), the other one was solid and it was an Australian sixpence! Made in 1940. The bottom two were bigger, both with holes in the middle of the 'washers'. They were SHILLINGS! New Guinea shillings made in 1938 and 39!
Yes 'trench art' grips.
And it shoots very very well!
Deaf
Yes 'trench art' grips.
And it shoots very very well!
Deaf
AlexanderA
Member
Every time I check Old Western Scrounger for that loading, they are out of stock. I guess I'll try Matt's Bullets.
gotboostvr
Member
I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of that if you have one handy.
Deaf Smith
Member
I'll make one tonight (I have to get the gun, take the wood grips I have on 'em, and put the trench art grips on!)
Deaf
Deaf
tark
Member
My Mk VI is by my bedside. I shoot light loaded 45 ACP ammo in it with a 250 grain lead semi-wadcutter bullet. Hollowpoints are not required with a load like that. I would not feel undergunned with a Webley in 38-200 caliber. I have read the Brits went with the heavier bullet because it invariably tumbled upon striking flesh. Sounds good to me.
OP
OP
Panzerschwein
member
I'd be okay with that. Far better than the wretched Nagant.
You've hit the nail on the head, although "better than the Nagant" is setting the bar pretty low. I have a Singapore Police Webley 38, and while I think it's very neat it's low on my list of SD guns. If you must, then get the 125 grain Buffalo Bore hard cast flat points. With cartridges of this low power you're faced with a Hobson's choice of penetration but no expansion or expansion with no penetration. The flat nose will hit harder than a round nose while still penetrating. At least you'll get some decent velocity out of them.
The key to greatness of Webley or Enfield revolvers are .38/200 cartridge (easy to shoot for just about anyone which was great because average British officer wasn't used to shooting handguns), ease of relading plus very good iron sights. Just look how much better sights are than those found on our period correct 1911s.
Janos Dracwlya
Member
Thanks. This has been a very enlightening thread, especially with the information regarding choices for modern ammunition for the Webley .38.
I would love to get one someday, and it is my habit to have defensive ammunition for any gun I own, just in case. The ammunition here, and components for loading good plinking ammunition, would make a .38 Webley far from the least useful defensive gun I (would) own.
I would love to get one someday, and it is my habit to have defensive ammunition for any gun I own, just in case. The ammunition here, and components for loading good plinking ammunition, would make a .38 Webley far from the least useful defensive gun I (would) own.
BSA1
member
Cooldill,
I enjoy shooting old guns as much as anybody. However I keep them in the context that they were state-of-the-art defensive weapons in their era.
Humans in the United States today are physically larger than two generations ago. Much more powerful drugs that alter the users mental and physical state are commonly available. PCP and Crack did not exist a generation ago. Meth has been around for a while (it was given to our soldiers in W.W.II to help them stay awake).
Some criminals just choose not to die. Read about the infamous FBI Shootout in Miami in 1986. Michael Platt was shot multiple times yet murdered two FBI agents and wounded 5 others. The autopsy showed he did not have any drugs or alcohol in his system.
I fail to understand why you choose to handicap yourself when state-of the-guns and ammunition is available for most any budget. A Hi-Point and modern ammunition such as Critical Defense or Golden Saber is many generations ahead of your Webley.
I enjoy shooting old guns as much as anybody. However I keep them in the context that they were state-of-the-art defensive weapons in their era.
Humans in the United States today are physically larger than two generations ago. Much more powerful drugs that alter the users mental and physical state are commonly available. PCP and Crack did not exist a generation ago. Meth has been around for a while (it was given to our soldiers in W.W.II to help them stay awake).
Some criminals just choose not to die. Read about the infamous FBI Shootout in Miami in 1986. Michael Platt was shot multiple times yet murdered two FBI agents and wounded 5 others. The autopsy showed he did not have any drugs or alcohol in his system.
I fail to understand why you choose to handicap yourself when state-of the-guns and ammunition is available for most any budget. A Hi-Point and modern ammunition such as Critical Defense or Golden Saber is many generations ahead of your Webley.
OP
OP
Panzerschwein
member
Perhaps you should read my OP again first, more carefully.
Deaf Smith
Member
BSA1,
Actually meth was discovered in 1893. Crack is a free base form of cocaine that can be smoked, nothing more, and cocaine has been around since 1859. PCP is a 1950s drug. And of course insane people (who tend to soak up lots of bullets) have been around since man came on the scene!
The Webley is liked because, as I said, it will 'get you through the night'. It's not a entry team weapon but it is just as good as say a Colt Detective Special or S&W 2 inch Model 10. Not everyone needs or wants a Hi-Point and the Webley will do.
Deaf
BSA1
member
"Actually meth was discovered in 1893. Crack is a free base form of cocaine that can be smoked, nothing more, and cocaine has been around since 1859. PCP is a 1950s drug."
And cocaine was one of the original ingredients in Coca-Cola which changes nothing that many of today's criminals are users of strong drugs that changes their mood and increases tolerance to pain.
"It's not a entry team weapon but it is just as good as say a Colt Detective Special or S&W 2 inch Model 10."
The 38/200 is a poor, unreliable stopper in any handgun you chamber it in. The U.S. Army dropped it’s handguns in 38 Long Colt and brought their Colt SAA 45 Colts out of retirement for issue to the soldiers stationed in the Philippines after the Spanish-American War.
If you are claiming the Webley 38/200 is as effective as a stopper as the Colt D.S. and S&W in 38 Special please post any data that proves this.
It appears that you may not have much experience shooting live animals with a weak 38. I can tell you from first-hand experience that a 148 gr. lead full-wadcutter at 700 +/- fps. will bounce off of the forehead of a opossum when shot from a distance of 2 feet away from a 4” barrel revolver. A full-wadcutter is designed to cut nice round holes whereas the roundnose lead bullets skip off of a hard target.
"Not everyone needs or wants a Hi-Point and the Webley will do."
So buy a different modern gun in a proven caliber. This sounds like someone that does not what to hurt or kill their attacker only to cause them to run away.
And cocaine was one of the original ingredients in Coca-Cola which changes nothing that many of today's criminals are users of strong drugs that changes their mood and increases tolerance to pain.
"It's not a entry team weapon but it is just as good as say a Colt Detective Special or S&W 2 inch Model 10."
The 38/200 is a poor, unreliable stopper in any handgun you chamber it in. The U.S. Army dropped it’s handguns in 38 Long Colt and brought their Colt SAA 45 Colts out of retirement for issue to the soldiers stationed in the Philippines after the Spanish-American War.
If you are claiming the Webley 38/200 is as effective as a stopper as the Colt D.S. and S&W in 38 Special please post any data that proves this.
It appears that you may not have much experience shooting live animals with a weak 38. I can tell you from first-hand experience that a 148 gr. lead full-wadcutter at 700 +/- fps. will bounce off of the forehead of a opossum when shot from a distance of 2 feet away from a 4” barrel revolver. A full-wadcutter is designed to cut nice round holes whereas the roundnose lead bullets skip off of a hard target.
"Not everyone needs or wants a Hi-Point and the Webley will do."
So buy a different modern gun in a proven caliber. This sounds like someone that does not what to hurt or kill their attacker only to cause them to run away.
adcoch1
Member
That is a nice Webley! I love top breaks no matter who made them, but the Webley is very well built. I wouldn't hesitate to use one for home security, but maybe I'm just used to classic guns that i can shoot well. I don't see how a 38/200 through the head would be any less effective than a 45 acp or a 12 ga slug. If its what you have and you can shoot it well, use it!
Deaf Smith
Member
Colt DS, at the time Webleys were made, was a non-plus P gun (as was the Victory model S&Ws.) So if you think a 158 gr RNL at 750-800 fps (2 inch bbl) is hugely superior to a 200 grain at 750 fps then, well, that's your opinion.
Deaf
BSA1
member
Deaf,
I do not consider the 158 gr. Round Nose Lead (RNL) non +P 38 Special to be superior to the 38/200. I consider it just as bad as the 38/200 in stopping power.
The 158 gr. RNL cartridge was called "The Widow Maker" by LEO's back then for good reason.
Both cartridges were underpowered when they were introduced 100 years ago as was proven in the Philippines and in the trenches in W.W.I. Today there is no reason for a person to handicap themselves in a obsolete, anemic cartridge in century old handgun made of weaker steel and old springs that may break at any moment.
I do consider the 38 Special + P JHP/XTP/Critical Defense (take your pick) vastly superior to both the 38/200 and 158 gr. RNL 38 Special.
The ball is in your court.
I do not consider the 158 gr. Round Nose Lead (RNL) non +P 38 Special to be superior to the 38/200. I consider it just as bad as the 38/200 in stopping power.
The 158 gr. RNL cartridge was called "The Widow Maker" by LEO's back then for good reason.
Both cartridges were underpowered when they were introduced 100 years ago as was proven in the Philippines and in the trenches in W.W.I. Today there is no reason for a person to handicap themselves in a obsolete, anemic cartridge in century old handgun made of weaker steel and old springs that may break at any moment.
I do consider the 38 Special + P JHP/XTP/Critical Defense (take your pick) vastly superior to both the 38/200 and 158 gr. RNL 38 Special.
The ball is in your court.
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BSA1
member
adcoch1,
Visit the emergency room in a big city hospital on a Friday or Saturday night and you will quickly see how ineffective head shots with a weak round nose bullet is.
Visit the emergency room in a big city hospital on a Friday or Saturday night and you will quickly see how ineffective head shots with a weak round nose bullet is.
SOOOOOO many better choices for defense today.
I think the Webleys are neater'n hell & I've owned two in .45 caliber.
I currently have a snubbed Enfield in .38 S&W, which I think is neat.
I also happen to think swords are neat, and look how many people were killed with those in the past.
They worked then, must be still viable today, eh?
I would not use either of the Webleys I had for SD, the current Enfield, or any of the swords in the house, unless it was all I had.
And I've made very sure over the years that those were NOT all I had.
Better ballistics, far better triggers, better metallurgy, better sights.
The Webleys were workhorses during their era, but for defensive uses that era has been superseded.
Denis
I think the Webleys are neater'n hell & I've owned two in .45 caliber.
I currently have a snubbed Enfield in .38 S&W, which I think is neat.
I also happen to think swords are neat, and look how many people were killed with those in the past.
They worked then, must be still viable today, eh?
I would not use either of the Webleys I had for SD, the current Enfield, or any of the swords in the house, unless it was all I had.
And I've made very sure over the years that those were NOT all I had.
Better ballistics, far better triggers, better metallurgy, better sights.
The Webleys were workhorses during their era, but for defensive uses that era has been superseded.
Denis
GooseGestapo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
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- 6,150
Actually it was the 1878 Colt DA that was used in the Philippines, not the 1873 Peacemaker! Not nearly as good as the Webley in .455, But vastly better than the feeble .38Colt.
I've got one in .44wcf aka .44/40. It lacks a cylinder bolt, (design shortcoming), but is otherwise serviceable. But the .45colt is/was the real deal.
My "antique" house gun is a Webley MkII "shaved" for .45acp. I shoot it with 4.0gr of Clays under a 200gr SWC @~775fps. Shoots to the sights at 15yds, ejects easily, and is uber fast to reload with full moon clips. Makes a nice companion to my Enfield Mk4No1/2.
I've got one in .44wcf aka .44/40. It lacks a cylinder bolt, (design shortcoming), but is otherwise serviceable. But the .45colt is/was the real deal.
My "antique" house gun is a Webley MkII "shaved" for .45acp. I shoot it with 4.0gr of Clays under a 200gr SWC @~775fps. Shoots to the sights at 15yds, ejects easily, and is uber fast to reload with full moon clips. Makes a nice companion to my Enfield Mk4No1/2.
Kaeto
Member
I'd love to add a .38 Webley to my .455 one. And I would sometimes carry it as a SD gun. After all I'll sometimes be carrying a PA-63 in 9x18 mm too. And I sometimes carry one of my H&Rs in .38 S&W.
The Moro tribesmen were hopped up on narcotics in addition to being tough. That's one of the reasons the .38s we used were not effective,
The Moro tribesmen were hopped up on narcotics in addition to being tough. That's one of the reasons the .38s we used were not effective,
Monac
Member
The Enfield and Webley .38/200s were not great revolvers.* No one has ever considered them as such. At the time, they were considered fairly impotent, especially for a pistol of their size and weight. A big part of the reason for that was their ammunition. The parent cartridge, the 38 S&W, was never considered suitable for anything but small pocket revolvers in the United States. British soldiers loved getting their hands on Beretta 1934s, which offered at least as much power in a far more convenient package.
Giving the Enfield .380 a 200 grain bullet, based on the (apparently) unsubstantiated theory that such a bullet might tumble on impact, and that tumbling might give it decent stopping power, did nothing for it, because it never saw service with that ammunition. The actual 178 grain bullets had a dismal reputation, as far as I have read. It is noteworthy that no one in the past 75 years went down the very-slow-very-long bullet = tumbling = stopping power road again.
As far as I know, 38 S&W is not available with the kind of pistol bullets that have actually been shown, in reality, to increase stopping power: high velocity expanding (hollow point, usually) bullets. Saying that a cartridge will stop well with "good shot placement" is meaningless. Any cartridge will stop well if the assailant is shot in the eye, and many will do OK if the bullet strikes the head or the heart. So what? What is wanted is a cartridge that will work well even under conditions that don't allow such accuracy.
I like Webleys and Enfields. I am glad that historically accurate ammunition is available for them. Heck, maybe somebody will actually check out that tumbling stuff. But they weren't that great at the time of their manufacture, and nothing has happened since (like the development of better ammo for them) to make them any better.
*I like top breaks in general, and Webleys in particular. But anyone who thinks of the Mark IV or the Enfield 380 as great designs should check out Stuart Mowbray's book on the dis-assembly of military pistols.
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