The Endless-Debate Rifle

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Mosin?

If you're just getting into bolt rifles, then may the Mauser ensnare you with her graceful beauty such that you can enjoy no other bolt rifle. :)
 
admit that the entire Scout Rifle concept is a convoluted means to justify Jeff Cooper's odd personal taste in rifles and beyond this, the concept is without merit.
I'm sure there's some truth to that, at least as far as Cooper's choice of the bolt-action. In the rifle's other particulars, though, it is surprisingly similar to the M16A2 which is both fairly modern and fairly common. Barrel length and overall length is about the same, back-up iron sights are preferred on both pieces, and both military and civilians prefer glass sights. Like Cooper, many prefer a low- or even no-magnification optic. The forward mounting is different, of course, but this is something many have found to be better than the conventional method. I haven't tried it yet, myself. beerslurpy, you seem to think that low magnification and a short barrel limit ranges to 2 - 300 yards. I think Scout Rifle afficionados expect to reach much further with the weapon, especially as it is intended for the expert marksman, as detailed below. As I haven't tried the system, I can't say how well it works.

So the question remains, why a bolt-action? And you have asked, what is this rifle for? It has been some time since I have read up on that particular subject, so I had to do some digging for the following quotations. It seems Cooper thought the Scout Rifle would be primarily a hunting arm, but would also be equally useful for the lone rifleman defending himself at intermediate ranges, taking one or two shots, then moving.

From To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth:
A general purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target....
Such a piece is eminently suited for taking the vast preponderance of four-footed game and equally so for men.

Whether or not an individual rifleman might ever be called upon to do that [hit a target] again and again and again – ad infinitum – is at least moot….
In studying the circumstances under which an individual owner might be called upon to use a rifle in defense of his life and property, one is drawn to the conclusion that a battle scene is almost certainly not going to be involved. A solitary rifleman, or a small group operating individually from cover, can do enormously effective work – but rarely with more than two shots from the same firing position. It thus becomes a question as to whether rapid repeat shots delivered from a large capacity magazine are of any real value. More important might be a beautifully crisp trigger and very accurate shooting.
[Cooper goes on to speak of the typical sniping scenario in which one, perhaps two shots, are fired at a distant enemy, after which the shooter goes to a new position.]
What I am driving at is that in nearly all individual situations the rifleman is going to need range, power, control, and ease of movement more than volume of fire.
[He goes on to discuss the poor triggers (in his estimation) to be found on all the semi-automatic battle rifles other than “the Garand family” but concludes that he would outfit a modern army with HKs or SIGs, but with improvements to triggers and other areas. AR's, AK's and others chambered for intermediate assault rifle cartridges are not considered]

From "The Proceedings of the First Scout Rifle Conference":
The "Scout Rifle" was defined as a rifle suitable for general use by one man alone--as opposed to a firing group-- and for targets of up to about 500 pounds in weight. The general opinion of the group was that such a rifle should be intended for use by experienced marksmen rather than beginners. It was further decided that the ideas incorporated in the scout rifle concept should be considered on merit alone, without regard to marketability. While cost is acknowledged to be a consideration, it is secondary to excellence.


A discussion of the qualities of the bolt-action rifle, as opposed to the semi-automatic, was resolved in favor of the bolt, the theory being that one man acting alone should not normally fire more than one shot from one position, and that even under exceptional circumstances he will not be called upon to fire more than three. The advantage of the semi- automatic rifle in continuity of fire is countered by excess bulk, weight and complexity, all of which are drawbacks to a scout.

In going over these things again, it seems Cooper may have ignored the likelihood that one's rifle that is intended to be useful in sniping encounters may be pressed into service as a short-range weapon against multiple assailants. But maybe he was just going to reach for his 1911 in that case. :confused:

I guess I would consider myself a fan, if not a mindless devotee. If one reads my posts, I haven't promoted the Scout Rifle, only defended the idea from attacks I felt were unfair or based on misinformation. I do like the idea, and prefer my bolt rifles in this configuration.
 
Best All-around: VZ-24, sporterized or original...

I have ONE double gun case containing two rifles I use for everything from prairie dogging and wild hogging to monster elk and bear. One is an all numbers matching (including bayonet!), crested VZ-24 in excellent arsenal condition. The other is a sporterized VZ-24 with all the upgrades (custom walnut stock with hydraulic recoil pad, Bushnell scoped, etc,etc,etc... chambered for 8mmMauser. See, sometimes I'm in the mood for ruff'n'tuff iron sights and metal butt plate recoil (ok, so I stuff a bandana into the shoulder of my shirt), and other times I'm in the mood for Rolls-Royce comfort shooting. Both have arsenal triggers, just absolutely can't be beat for feel and pull type!

Either way, arsenal issue or high-mod sporterized, the Mauser (8mm or Swede)--and IMHO especially the VZ-24--- absolutely cannot be beat for simple elegance of classic design, failsafe operation, kid friendliness/safety, adaptation to specific conditions and target intentions, and range of ballistic capabilities (with a tip of the hat to the Swede Mausers, of course!). I see yuppies my age spending $2500+ on narrow purpose rifles, and having several of them, who cannot begin to outshoot the Mauser.

Them's the facts, but also just IMHO:D !

But if y'all threatened to take m' dog, m' truck, 'n m' Mausers away from me unless I chose another, I'd have to vote for the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin K31. It is also a SWEET, sweet, sweet shooting and highly accurate semi-scout rifle with match grade milsurp ammo available cheap. Seriously guys, a K31 in primo condition is as close to a fine Swiss watch as you're ever going to find in a rifle. Look one over soon and see if you don't agree! The one I bought is so nice I never take it hunting, and even had the original Swiss soldier owner's name on a piece of paper under the butt plate. What a heavenly gun!
 
Farmallmta, let me be the first to welcome you to THR.

Where you been, dude? Nice writing. We like good writers, who can express themselves well in written form. You're going to like it here.

Since i'm the first on the welcome committee to reach you, i am saddled with the responsibility to tell you that new members buy the next rounds.

I'll take a pint of blue moon wheat ale, along with a box of 12 ga 00.

Have fun here. There's no cyber-place like THR.

Keep your intellectual guard up. There be fine people here, but there dragons here, as well. :evil:

Nem
 
What's this then? Another Nematode thread-jacking? :neener:

Nem, did I tell you what I decided on? I went with the CZ550 American in .270 Winchester. Now I am deciding on a scope. PM incoming! :)
 
Welcome farmallmta.

What, if anything, did you do with your trigger on the spiffed up Mauser?

Do you use the same bullets and loads for all of your hunting?
 
Thanks for the warm welcome!

... and I appreciate the kind words from everybody!

BTW, I'd like to say I'm not out to bash anybody's preferred rifle which may not be a Mauser... I have a friend who loves his really great M1 Garand that I also enjoy shooting, and another friend prefers a Winchester 30-30 lever action that belonged to his grandfather, a rifle I also like... We all have our preferences, but inexpensive excellence is pretty hard to beat and I like to help spread the word to those looking and considering. After all, I got started with them by falling under the influence of a "Jehovah's Witness for Amway about Mausers" (as I called him at the time) myself... got to help spread the news!

Real quickly, I use different loads for different purposes. I'll get into more detail on that in another post. But I do run through a fair amount of the Romanian jacketed milsurp. When I can I use milder loads just to go easy on myself and my VZ's. I have put some high psi loads (for case hardened steel, that is) through it, but really like to lock the gun down tight to minimize muzzle rise and stock kick. So that's not a real often happening. BTW, once you get used to prompt and thorough cleaning and oiling, corrosive milsurp just isn't a big negative in my experience. I actually enjoy being attentive to them and caring for them.

As far as triggers go, my preference has been towards the standard arsenal trigger, not the modifieds. I'm aware that the aftermarkets have their fans, but I LIKE taking up the trigger to the trip point as a way of preparing my mind and body for the discharge. Since I use my unaltered military VZ24 often, I also didn't want to have to jump back and forth between two different pulls... kind of dangerous, really, to do so. This way I'm always using the same style of triggering, no mistakes or accidents through some dumb brain fart of mine.

Anybody here have an M-14? I'm really eager to get some opinions on those. I'd kind of like to have a semi-auto in my too-small hoard of way-cool rifles!

Thanks again!
 
"Jehovah's Witness for Amway about Mausers"

:D :D :D Did you get any little printed tracts? The guard tower or something like that? Too funny!
 
"Jehovah's Witness for Amway about Mausers"
I wish Amway sold Mausers. Then they would be cheaper, far, far more effective than anything else on the market;) , and if you got six people to help you sell the plan, you could get an FFL! Of course, you'd get lots of great tapes to listen to. :rolleyes:
 
Try a Vierling for the perfect hunting arm.

The Germans have all kinds of weird and wonderful hunting arms to solve a myriad of problems concerning having the right calibre or gauge with you.

If a drilling, a side by side 12 gauge with a 30-06 (or any other calibre that turns your crank) under is not sufficiently versatile try a vierling in maybe 12 gauge side by side with a 30-06 under and a 22LR over.

No kidding


http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/ThoseCombos.html
 
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