Working class scout rifle?

[cluttonfred]

Before I go any further, I am quite aware that there are plenty of cheap milsurp rifles out there that would work as affordable scout rifles. So please lay off the "throw a scope mount on a Mosin-Nagant or an SKS if you want semi-auto and call it a day" comments!

What I am talking about is an affordable new bolt action rifle that could be easily adapted with owner-installed accessories and would satisfy MOST of the criteria for a scout rifle. Per Jeff Cooper (please lets not argue these, this is just a starting point) those were:

• Max unloaded weight, with accessories, of 3-3.5 kg (6.6-7.7 lbs);
• Max overall length of 1 meter (39.4 in.);
• Forward-mounted telescopic sight of low magnification (preferred but optional);
• Ghost ring (large aperture) iron sights;
• Ching or CW sling
• .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO (or 7mm-08 Remington where military calibers prohibited, or .243 Winchester if recoil is an issue)
• 2 MOA or better for a three-shot group @ 200 meters
• Optional bipod, optional removable magazine

I am probably not alone at looking at the many economical but accurate rifles available today and thinking, hmmm, if only they made it in carbine length I could "scouterize" one. Well, Ruger does make the very affordable Ruger American Compact with an 18" barrel in .22-250, .223, .242, 7mm-08 and .308. And, what do you know, someone has already documented such a project (and I gleefully stole his title). I've also attached a pic to inspire folks otherwise too lazy to click the links. ;-)

Working Class Scout Rifle: Part One
Working Class Scout Rifle: Part Two
Working Class Scout Rifle: Part Three

Personally, I am intrigued by this project, but the lack of iron sights would make this a non-starter for me as I'd rather have just irons over just a scope if relying on a rifle in a life or death situation, but maybe there is some solution that I am not considering. I have seen some offset express sights for attaching to scope rails that look interesting, for example.

What do folks think of this attempt at a poor man's scout rifle? What would you do differently if making a pseudo scout out of a Ruger American Compact in your choice of caliber? Any solutions for the iron sights?

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[StrawHat]

Most of my rifles have nothing but open (non glass) sights. Unfortunately, most of them are aftermarket sights I purchase and install or have installed. Good sights are available form a variety of sources, I have used New England Custom Gun,

https://newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/Sights.asp

for my non blackpowder rifles. For something like a scout rifle, I would consider a Savage Lightweight and a good receiver sight paired with a banded ramp fore sight. I do not care for scopes so would just use the irons.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks, StrawHat. In my case, I don't mind optics (scope or red dot) but I definitely want iron sights as a back up. As you can see from this image, the split Weaver bases that come with the Ruger American rifles are perfect for many different rear-mount sights intented for scope bases, and leaving the front base for a single-point cantilever mount for a light scope or just a little red dot. The key question is how to add a front sight without an expensive trip to the gunsmith?

 

[jmr40]

Cooper's main reasoning for the forward mounted scope was to facilitate faster loading milsups with stripper clips. Even Copper understood that it was a poor scope mounting option. I say the heck with even trying to do that, why handicap ourselves when no one is going to use stripper clips to reload anyway.

Mount a 1-4X20 scope conventionally on a lot of rifles in QD mounts and you have a better "scout rifle" than anything Cooper ever imagined. The Ruger American compact is as good as any and better than most. Iron sights would be nice, but in reality I've seen more irons fail than quality glass. And a 1-4X scope does everything better anyway, even up close and fast.

 

[dprice3844444]

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/ar15-m16tacticalrearflipsight.aspx you can check this site
for sight combos.you could find out if their are any holes drilled in the front of the barrel and custom make a rail to fit,or cut a dovetail and have the front sight setup attach to the dovetail.keep the backup sights in your pocket till needed.

http://www.gentrycustom.com/muzzle-brake,if your worried about recoil in the light rifle.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Cooper's main reasoning for the forward mounted scope was to facilitate faster loading milsups with stripper clips."

No.

No.

No.

:banghead::banghead:

One last time: (OK, probably not for the last time...)

1: The SCOUT RIFLE CONFERENCE proceedings, which were the result of the SCOUT RIFLE CONFERENCES attended by many of those people who were interested in the concept, and CHAIRED BY COLONEL COOPER came up with the design specifications from which the concept was taken. Jeff publicized the concept thru many vehicles, but it was a concensus opinion.

2: The forward scope was NOT NOT NOT put there for the purpose of stripper clip loading, It was placed there to permit two-eye open shooting with low power scopes, and to provide access to the loading port for LOADING, not "stripper clip loading".

One of the much lower "wish list items" dreamed up by the group was stripper clips. None of us ever really thoght that would come to pass, and it has not.


Right now, I would buy the lightest Ruger or Remington .308 with iron sights on it, stick on a forward rail, and then stick on one of the good electronic sights and call it good to go, were I building up a quick and dirty Scout. What I woud never do would be to buy the Ruger "Scout", which isn't a Scout by any stretch of the imagination.


When I get back home I am going to start a thread and show off a few of the prototype original Scouts, and discuss. It's a shame that the real history and background of these has become so obscured by marketing, internet myth, and wishful thinking.


Willie

.

 

[Bopleo]

Wouldn't it be easier to throw a scope mount on a Mosin-Nagant or an SKS if you want semi-auto?

 

[cluttonfred]

Wouldn't it be easier to throw a scope mount on a Mosin-Nagant or an SKS if you want semi-auto?

I will not take the bait.... ;-p

 

[chicharrones]

Working Class Scout Rifle: Part One

Personally, I am intrigued by this project, but the lack of iron sights would make this a non-starter for me as I'd rather have just irons over just a scope if relying on a rifle in a life or death situation, but maybe there is some solution that I am not considering. I have seen some offset express sights for attaching to scope rails that look interesting, for example.

I like it. It is inexpensive and adding a red dot helps out people that want no magnification, but have older eyes that have trouble with iron sights. Like me in my current condition.

Considering the whole "Scout" concept in general, I won't argue the purity of Scout rifles. However, my limited paths of entertaining the idea of a Scout rifle and my purchase of a GSR a while back have led me to other ideas. BTW, I didn't buy my GSR to be a Scout and it is not currently set up trying to emulate one.

I like a gun to be handy in the way you can grab the gun forward of the pistol grip. A Scout rifle with a blind magazine is handy because you can wrap your hand around the receiver. A detachable magazine gun can be handy if you can wrap your hand around the forend and barrel. I find the GSR not to be as handy with the forward mounted scope and a extended mag in place. Both items block wrapping your hand around the gun.

I also like rear mounted aperture sights, but those can interfere with traditional scope mounting. While I've tried forward mounted scopes, I still like receiver mounted scopes better.

So, (in my limited experience and in my opinion) if a gun has to have back up sights, is primarily going to used with an optic, and that optic is a low magnified unit to be used in place of quick-to-use "iron sights", I'd get a rifle with a barrel mounted rear sight (it's a back up, right?). Then I'd stick some sort of small 1-4x optic over the receiver. Detachable mag? Sure, why not?

Something laid out like the .308 Mossberg MVP Patrol would be sweet. Just remove that flash suppressor and replace it with 1.5" of barrel length, and it would be very nice for the detachable magazine crowd.

It's not as inexpensive as the Ruger American though. Considering economy priced new manufactured rifles tend to not come with iron sights, then a used sporter with irons is probably the way to go.

 

[mac66]

There are websites specifically for pseudo scout rifles if you want to see what the latest and greatest is.

My take on the Ruger American as a SR would be to take one of the new stainless compact ones. Cut and thread the barrel to 16". Add a muzzle comp/flash hider. Add Tech Sights and a forward mount w/2-3x compact scope.

I am probably going to do that someday. I have a number of 308s which I hand load for but I would probably go with the 243 for this one just to keep it in the compact idea.

 

[dprice3844444]

I am probably going to do that someday. I have a number of 308s which I hand load for but I would probably go with the 243 for this one just to keep it in the compact idea.

but in a shtf hypothetical situation,308/223 and 9mm will be the standard calibers that will be the most/only available.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Not sure dprice, last panic left the "popular" NATO calibers bare on the shelves.

 

[mac66]

And I gots lots of guns and ammo in those calibers. Frankly the idea of a scout type bolt action fighting rifle is kinda silly in this day and age IMO. Light weight hunting rifle, yup. Fighting rifle, not so much.

 

[armoredman]

Would this make a good start?
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/CZ557Carbine/

 

[Art Eatman]

In one of Cooper's columns I read that in "shoot'n'scoot" competition at Gunsite, those who had Scout rifles (Steyr, back then) had higher scores--which was attributed to the forward mounting of the scope allowing faster acquisition of targets.

Always remember that Cooper's view of a person who's a scout is that a firefight is a mission failure. A fast reload via stripper clip is irrelevant.

 

[buzz meeks]

Cooper often held up the Winchester 94 as a reference point in the Scout's evolution and it seems like a great choice for the person who simply cannot afford a Scout which, despite efforts to the contrary, cannot be built both correctly and cheaply.

 

[cluttonfred]

chicharrones, thanks for the comments, my only arguments against the MVP Patrol are 1) I prefer an aperture sight and 2) its fugly. That last one is not an official criterion, I admit. ;-)

mac66, dprice, P.B. Walsh, I hear you on the calibers. With a bolt-action there's an argument to be made that you could get away with a less common caliber, and not a military one, because you won't need so many. Personally I'd go with .223 or 7.62x39 as they the rounds most likely to be used by an opposing force, and cheapest for stocking up, but that's another thread. 7.62x54R would also be a great caliber as you can still get surplus ammo relatively cheaply, though you'd need a flash suppressor for sure if the short Mosin's are any indication.

armoredman, CZ makes great rifles, and the .223/7.62x39 527 Carbine would be my choice, though only available with a wood stock and we're in another price bracket. CZ is probably missing a potential market share by not offering their carbines with forward scope mounts and synthetic stocks as scout models.

mac66, I am not so sure that a bolt gun would cut it in an essentially defensive role, or as an offensive sniper, but that, too, is another thread in the making. There's the old saw that you can't miss fast enough to win a firefight, and the point about target acquisition is a good one. Having spent a lot of time in the developing world observing poorly-trained, AK-armed military and police, I am quite sure a few disciplined riflemen (or women) with bolt guns are worth quite a few more undisciplined conscripts with assault rifles.

Back to the topic at hand, does anyone have any experience with the less expensive add-on sights from Williams and Marble that might suit the budget of this project? It's a lot cheaper to have a smith drill and tap one or two holes than to cut a dovetail or fit an finish one of the lovely but expensive NECG banded ramps.

 

[cluttonfred]

Cooper often held up the Winchester 94 as a reference point in the Scout's evolution and it seems like a great choice for the person who simply cannot afford a Scout which, despite efforts to the contrary, cannot be built both correctly and cheaply.

I would certainly not feel under-armed with any lever action .30-30 carbine, though the lever action is always a trade-off in terms of quicker operation when standing or kneeling but awkwardness when prone. Presumable that's why the military model Winchester 1895s for the Russians didn't exactly set a trend.

 

[buzz meeks]

Owlnmole,

I've worked with my Marlin 336 for almost 20 years (yikes) and that hasn't been my experience when shooting prone. Others have made a similar point, though, so I could be the odd man out.

I also realized in your original post, you specified the .308 and its close relatives. I would never put the 30-30 in a class with high-intensity, spitzer-capable cartridges. Clearly, rifles like the Win 94 or Marlin 336 will fall short in some areas.

For my money, they excel based on cost and in the intangible areas of 'handiness' and 'friendliness'; qualities I suspect were just as important to Cooper as other hardware considerations.

 

[chicharrones]

Good point about the lever. It can be worked prone on your elbows. I just use my index finger and thumb to sling it open and closed. Standing up, my three non trigger fingers are in the lever like one would expect.

The only time prone may get interesting with a lever is if you and your gun are trying to become one with the earth and you can't get lever clearance. That's when I have to break cheek weld and roll the gun to my left to work the lever.

 

[ThomasT]

but in a shtf hypothetical situation,308/223 and 9mm will be the standard calibers that will be the most/only available.

Those were about the first to disappear after the Sandy Hook shooting. (and also in 2008 after the elections) I have stated before that when the SHTF happens you better already have on hand everything you are going to need. And now that includes 22lr rounds.

A 30-30 cannot compete with a 308 shooting spitzer bullets and a 4-500fps velocity advantage. I have shot my Marlin 30-30 out to 300 yards and its a whole lot better than you would think. You can convert a Marlin 336 to a scout rifle concept with bolt on parts. It will hit a man sized target at 300 yards with no problems. But its much better at 200 yards or less.

 

[chicharrones]

Back to the topic at hand, does anyone have any experience with the less expensive add-on sights from Williams and Marble that might suit the budget of this project? It's a lot cheaper to have a smith drill and tap one or two holes than to cut a dovetail or fit an finish one of the lovely but expensive NECG banded ramps.

I've added a Marbles front sight and a Williams rear aperture to a sightless airgun of mine. The tricky part is getting the front sight the right height to give the rear sight proper elevation adjustment. A tall front post you can file down would be easier than trying figure out a fixed height front sight. Also, you have to find a front ramp base that fits the diameter of your barrel at the muzzle.

I used a bead front sight on a ramp similar to these.
Front Sight and Front Sight Base

Since it was an airgun, I rolled the dice on getting the screw hole drilled in the barrel correctly myself. If I had to do it to a firearm, I'd pay a gunsmith to get it indexed vertically.

The two models of Williams rear apertures I have adjust with the side mount slider like this. On the two guns in my case, the stocks have plenty of clearance for the sliding portion. For a Scout type centerfire, I'd get the top mount sight like this.

So, yeah it is obviously doable. If I were paying a 'smith to drill the holes, I'd also give him the chance to sell me the parts. He could probably figure heights easier and faster than I could.

Here's a couple pics of what my set up looks like. Again, it's an airgun that came with no sights and the rear sight in this case clamps into a rimfire scope groove.

 

[chicharrones]

You know, by the time you buy the sights, a forward scope rail, and pay a gunsmith to drill and mount it all you'd probably be about $100 short of just getting a Savage 10FCM Scout rifle.

 

[mac66]

I worshiped at the alter of Col. Cooper for a long time. I got caught up in the scout rifle fad for awhile. Made them, hunted with them, including a Styer. I really didnt think the forward scope did anything better than a conventional scope.

His scout rifle concept would have been great in another day and age (WWI&II). Modern tactics (recon by fire for example) and modern automatic weapons make it obsolete in combat. Hunting good, fighting, not so good except as a sniper rifle, not a recon/scout rifle. I say that as an Appleseed instructor and we are all about accurate aimed fire out to long distances. In fact we,ve had quite a few military guys come and learn.

 

[chicharrones]

chicharrones, thanks for the comments, my only arguments against the MVP Patrol are 1) I prefer an aperture sight and 2) its fugly. That last one is not an official criterion, I admit. ;-)

I know I'm drifting again, but here's a lower cost option to that MVP, that I forgot existed.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/78093

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/savage-arms-hog-hunter-leupold-hog-pig-plex-reticle/