The Ethics of CCW

[B36]

My consideration

I carry a firearm/s to keep me or mine from death or grave bodily injury.

Verbal abuse does not bother me, and my stance, demeanor, has always stood me well. Cannot remember the last problem that required removing gun from holster. Last situation I remember was 9 years or so ago--when I was with grandson during an emergency potty break. Do to where we had to stop, and some of the people in the place, my hand was on gun in my pocket as I stood by the toilet door.

Perhaps my training, both military and civilian over the past almost 60 years, and the fact I have carried most of my life, makes me 'deselected', in the type of situations that others become involved.

I also practice 'avoidance' constantly, and try to live with OODA.

One thing I guarantee--if you carry, you will be held to a higher standard.

 

[outofbattery]

I don't behave any differently.For me there would be no need to back down from someone who is verbally abusive because I carrying as I would actively avoid a confrontation with that person in the first place.I have far more to lose in any physical confrontation than whatever amount of pride and dignity some random a* could take from me by calling me names.Someone getting ahead of me in the express lane with 14 items is hardly worth my time to possibly make a bad situation happen,yet I have witnessed it.

 

[orionengnr]

Zundfogle:

I am still me ... with or without a gun.
Right is still right and wrong is still wrong regardless of whether there is a piece of steel in my pants or not.
Situational Ethics is for "progressives".

Well said.

 

[hso]

I don't drink alcoholic beverages if I'm out and carrying, but because they might slow my physical reactions or mental reactions.

I don't get into confrontations or arguments with strangers (of course I don't do this regardless of whether I carry or not.

 

[nelson133]

Carrying has calmed me down, as said above, it forced me to evaluate every situation in the light of "is it worth it".
More importantly, I don't have to "win" all of these small time encounters because I have do access to a gun. It's like dealing with your kids when they are having a tantrum. As the adult I have the ultimate power and I don't have to feel threatened because i am not dealing with an equal. I don't have to prove anything, I have the power of life and death and lesser confrontations are unimportant.
For example, shortly after I started carrying legally I had a road rage incident. A person in a tricked out pickup truck decided that I did not accelerate away from a green light fast enough. He rode my bumper, swering back and forth, then passed me on a double yellow curve and cut me off short. Once I would have been all excited and angry and would have gone after him in my car to proove my manhood. All I did was slow down as he passed and checked to make sure the .45 was loose in the holster. If he was done, well he didn't know what he had risked, if he felt the need force me over and "teach me a lesson" he might have ended up as the taught. If it had come to that, the less I did to escalate the situation early on, the better for me. But I wasn't worried, I didn't feel that I had to prove anything. A man with a gun who knows how to use it is already as dangerous as he needs to be.
The little dog does the most barking.

 

[scottw]

educate yourself in conduct on CCW

I just finished my CCW class in the state of Oklahoma. I must say it was a joke. Not one question on ethics or what to do in a conflict. The entire test was on safety. Anyone taking the CCW should continue on with their education in the responsibility of Carrying a firearm. My personal opinion for what it is worth is that no one be allowed to get a CCW until they have read the book "IN THE GRAVEST ESTREME" by Massad Ayoob. I use this book as it is the only one I know about, there my be others that I am not aware of. This book should be incorporated into the CCW test. I do think it covers at least 99% of the problems in CCW. I would be interested in hearing from others and their opinions of this subject.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I think the anti-gun crowd should get on here and read this thread. What would that do to their image of all gun owners as knuckle dragging neanderthals?

Sad to say, the anti-Second Amendment bigots already have their "minds" made up, and so would find only further evidence that we're knuckle-dragging Neanderthals.

 

[MountainPeak]

Firearms, in the nature of defense, are for protection of life/limb only, not your FEELINGS. If your feelings are easily hurt, perhaps learning how to punch an insulting *******, might be more appropriate! Just one mans opinion. Works for me.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Ryder's comments/other posts

Most of the member posts make sense except for Ryder's. I don't think "backing down" or avoiding an incident will increase the chance of a lethal force event.

Stop and think about how where and when you would need to display your weapons or use force;

When someone calls you an insulting name? When you see people roaming around "sizing" people up? When somebody looks intoxicated or high and is near where you need to go?

A CCW holder shoud use what tactics/weapon trainers call: Situational Awareness. You shouldn't act like a push over but you can take steps to avoid these areas all together.

As I posted before; use common sense and good judgement.

Rusty S

 

[carterbeauford]

Good thread.

I have not found myself being any more polite than usual since I started carrying.

I have been the target of verbal assaults in the past, and one thing I noticed: you can say anything you please to me, I will just stand there and stare at you. I rarely even respond. Now the polite thing to do would be to say "dear sir, I am truly sorry you feel that way" but I have found not responding at all usually makes the verbal assailant even more pissed off. Since I now have a duty to de-escalate, would you change your response (or lack thereof) if you were me?

I recently fired a coworker, this is what brought this to mind. He wanted to fight me (on my family's company property no less) and asked me to step out back numerous times. I was carring a P11 w/ 11 rounds of 9MM in my strong side pocket. I had to inform him no fight was going to be taking place and he was to leave immediately or be arrested for criminal trespass at the very least. He said you won't fight me because you carry a weapon. But the more I just stood there and stared at him, the madder he got. I knew he would not lay a hand on me because I have at least 125lbs on him, not all muscle but enough to physically subdue his 140lbs. Not to mention he knew I carry all the time. I finally had to walk away. Call it taking cover, I retreated to a "safe" area inside the building. He knew if he entered, there would be more people, even bigger than me, and with more guns.

I handled the situation well according to my coworkers. But keeping your cool is no defense against the fact that some people are just (expletive) crazy. I think we look at situations from the perspective that the threat we are facing has some degree of sanity. I've been called worse, but that is not the issue. This guy was clearly mentally ill, but that is a long story and would venture into the realm offtopicland. Bottom line, call me names, get met with a stare. Not exactly de-escalation for some people.

I have been carrying the aforementioned P11 semi-concealed, the grip sticks out of my pocket enough for most to recognize it as a handgun. No one has said a word, I have noticed no stares or odd looks. This is slowly giving me the courage to start open carrying. I will give it a trial run as soon as I get a presentable holster for my wheelgun. I fear the "man with a gun" call and subsequent unneeded detention by law enforcement more than a lot of things.

 

[baz]

In nature, the normal response of most species is to flee from trouble, not go looking for it -- but if cornered they will fight. That's my philosophy. I don't go looking for trouble, and will take all reasonable precautions to stay out of trouble. I will even run from it, where that is a reasonable response.

Case in point: I pulled my gun the other night, as a precaution. I had been followed home (probably by somebody miffed by my driving). It was clear that they were following me -- late at night, I live on a dead end road -- they slowed as they passed my drive way, and stopped in front of my driveway after coming back from turning around at the end of the road. By that time, I'm out of the car, gun in hand, watching to see what they are going to do. When they stopped in front of the driveway I ran to the back door (I doubt they had seen me at all in the driveway), went in, locked the door, got a shotgun, stood in a dark room watching outside, phone in hand ready to dial 911. All of that in less than a minute or so; and that's all it took for them to then decide to drive away.

So I ran, to where it was not reasonable to run any more, and then prepared to stand my ground. The situation defused itself. Had I confronted them, who knows how bad the night might have ended?

 

[searcher6]

fistfights?

What do you do if someone decides they want to engage in a fistfight with you while you are carrying? If you pull your gun and the guy calls your bluff you are in big trouble if you shoot him, you have just used disproportional force. You can't even legally pick up a stick to hit him with (unless he is physically much more formidable than you are or if there are multiple attackers). If he is a better fighter, I think you will have to take a beating without pulling your gun. That is, unless the guy starts putting the boots to you while you are already down and you are in fear of your life. The only alternatives I see are pepper mace or learning unarmed combat (or running away, which is not a good option for those of us of portly proportions).

 

[tegemu]

I try to avoid occasions that might escalate into hot tempers, like the plague. I might,and I can't guarantee that, be able to control my temper but what is more likely, is that the other participants may fly off the handle and then I might have to defend myself.

 

[Deanimator]

What do you do if someone decides they want to engage in a fistfight with you while you are carrying? If you pull your gun and the guy calls your bluff you are in big trouble if you shoot him, you have just used disproportional force.

It depends upon the situation.

A while ago in Texas, a big Samoan guy named Tavai was in a truck which cut a guy off (may have hit him). The other guy followed him to get his license number. When they were stopped in traffic, Tavai got out of the truck and savagely beat the other guy while he was trapped in his car, injuring him to the point where his vision was impaired. The guy whom he was beating warned him to stop or he'd shoot him. Tavai didn't, and got shot to death for his trouble. The guy whom Tavai attacked was cleared of any criminal charges.

In civilized states at any rate, you don't get to beat somebody to death with impunity.

 

[searcher6]

In civilized states at any rate, you don't get to beat somebody to death with impunity.

Let's say he's just a good fighter and is just plain kicking your *ss, but any "reasonable man" or even actual witnesses contend you were not in danger of getting killed or maimed, just beat up. I think that if you pull any weapon capable of inflicting death you could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

 

[Cosmoline]

The key is to never go to any place where fist fights take place on a regular basis. This includes most bars and many sporting events. I avoid them, and I avoid anyone who looks like they might start a fight. Move on, don't socialize with people on the street and don't encourage conversations. Move on, move on, move on. Keep moving. Fade away.

And having a nice fierce dog next to you is of course the best defense of all against would-be punchers.

 

[fjolnirsson]

What do you do if someone decides they want to engage in a fistfight with you while you are carrying? If you pull your gun and the guy calls your bluff you are in big trouble if you shoot him, you have just used disproportional force.

Take a look, and you'll find numerous cases where one blow has been the cause of death, whether from damage caused directly, or something like a head injury sustained when falling. Recently, I heard about a man who was killed at a concert. He took his pregnant wife and her mentally challenged cousin where he shouldn't have, the "pit" area of a metal concert. A drunken jerk pushed this guy's wife, and when words were exchanged, the jerk pushed the victim. He struck his head on something, died on scene.

I've got bad knees, and a young daughter. There was a time I'd go toe to toe with anyone. Not anymore. I'll try to diffuse any situation as best I can, but if the fellow pushes it, he'll get hollowpoints for his trouble. I'd hate to have to take a life over something stupid, but I'm not gonna leave my daughter without her father, either. If I can walk away, I will. If not, I'll have my day in court.

 

[FPrice]

So my question is: what ethical standards control your behavior when you carry conceaed?

The same ethical standards which control my behavior when I am not armed. My behavior does not change when I am armed nor do my core beliefs.

 

[searcher6]

Take a look, and you'll find numerous cases where one blow has been the cause of death, whether from damage caused directly, or something like a head injury sustained when falling. Recently, I heard about a man who was killed at a concert. He took his pregnant wife and her mentally challenged cousin where he shouldn't have, the "pit" area of a metal concert. A drunken jerk pushed this guy's wife, and when words were exchanged, the jerk pushed the victim. He struck his head on something, died on scene.

You are absolutely right, in point of fact. When I took a criminology course in college 25 years ago the Prof. said white guys were typically murdered outside of a bar in a confrontation where one guy got his head kicked in and the other was hauled away to jail for life (at that time black guys where mostly murdered using guns and I believe Hispanic men were typically murdered by means of a knife).

Even though there is a possibility of getting killed by one unarmed attacker I believe the law in most places still says that in an unarmed confrontation, even if the other guy attacks you (assuming some physical parity between the 2 men involved), if you pull out a possibly deadly weapon you could potentially go to jail for much longer than he could (You would be charged with "Assault with a deadly weapon" and he would be charged with simple "Assault and Battery"). You would also get a charge of "Felony Battery" or worse if you used your weapon on an unarmed attacker.

I'm also not too sure criminal history would matter either. In other words, I think that even if your attacker had a violent criminal history and you had a perfectly clean record you might still be able to be convicted of these crimes.

Any lawyers out there care to comment?

 

[Erebus]

Let's say he's just a good fighter and is just plain kicking your *ss, but any "reasonable man" or even actual witnesses contend you were not in danger of getting killed or maimed, just beat up. I think that if you pull any weapon capable of inflicting death you could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

It's a real mess to be in. How do you know if he intends to beat you to death? Even if he doesn't a blow to the head can kill, especially if you fall and whack your head on something hard. THe problem lies in that "the law" will not see him using deadly force in beating the snot outta you if you shoot him. I guess if he's attacking you with fists and feet you have to actually be beaten to death before it's considered deadly force.

 

[DRMMR02]

Personally, I like to think that the other person "sets the terms" of the argument so to speak. I think the best stance, is to be reactionary. Let's say I get in a fender-bender with another guy. If he thinks it's worth arguing, that's as far as it will go. I will even try to calm him down, but I will in no way try to "one-up" him. If he keeps it verbal, I'll keep it verbal, and so forth. I feel that the only excuse to use lethal force, is if the other person forces it to come to that, mainly by trying to use lethal force himself. If I see a criminal trying to beat or rape someone, they have decided the level of the engagement. By threatening the life of another person, they have put their own life at risk. LEO's are the only people who have the authority to "escalate" situations. They can draw their weapons any time they feel it's necessary, even at a simple traffic stop. If they feel they need to show they can and will use lethal force, that's their decision. But we, as regular civilians, do not have the authority make those decisions. Only if the other person decides to make whatever the disagreement is into a life-or-death issue, do I feel I have the leeway to respond in that manner.

 

[TexasRifleman]

If they feel they need to show they can and will use lethal force, that's their decision. But we, as regular civilians, do not have the authority make those decisions.

That's not exactly true everywhere. Texas Penal Code allows for the presentation of a weapon and it not be considered actual use of deadly force.

I'd be real careful with this one, but it is in fact permitted.

§ 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of
force is justified when the use of force is justified by this
chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or
serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as
long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension
that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the
use of deadly force.

And you have to have met the necessity clause below, and that's where the judgment call comes in.

So, in Texas you would not have to be physically touched to produce a weapon to stop the imminent attack.
Again, a jury has to believe your story so make sure it's real solid ground you're on.

9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is
immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;

I'll add that the only time my weapon was ever unholstered was under cover of the above 2 provisions, and they served their purpose.

 

[DRMMR02]

Interesting, but I would still feel better erring on the side of caution and leaving it in the holster until absolutely necessary

 

[TexasRifleman]

Oh absolutely agree with you there, the problem comes in judging when that time is.

Clear leather too soon and you're a nutcase, wait too long and you might not be able to.

The OP was talking about verbal attacks and certainly that's not justification in most cases.

If a guy says he's going to "whip my ass" and he's sitting in his car, that's one thing.

If a 300 pound pissed off guy says he's going to "whip my ass" and starts towards me, that's entirely different.

Both are still verbal only, but a "reasonable person" might assume I was about to get my ass whipped

 

[P97]

I will do whatever I can to avoid a confortation. If I, or my family are attacked, I don't have any way of knowing what is in the attacker's mind. I don't know if their intentions are to beat me or kill me. I will do whatever I can to stop an attack, if it means deadly force, so be it. After an attack, it is to late to decide what the intentions were, if you, or your family are dead.