The evil THEM

[WVMountainBoy]

I often get this feeling that there are a lot of people involved with firearms that really creep me out. Its not by their ownership of a weapon or the such its the level of paranoia they seem to harbor. The tin foil hat crowd is really off setting sometimes. I'll try to elaborate...most of the time you here "they" "them" or someone in reference whos going to take our guns away but its really hard to get them to pin point who this is. If legislation passes it will be us, the majority, who vote away our rights. I've heard some of the more extreme hatters say military, law enforcement, CIA, and other various forms of the evil men in black. Its the us versus them mentality I don't care for. Its been discussed that should the SHTF and we're talking full blown revolution that if we don't have machine guns then we couldn't possibly hold off the US military as lowly citizens...See that doesn't sit well with me, if things fell apart, got that bad, because the military is made up of us, then it stands to reason that there is going to be decent on their behalf as well. If the country really was torn and an armed overthrow of a corrupt government was pending wouldn't our countrymen that are serving be just as apt as an accountant to want to get rid of the tyrant? One would assume that if such a thing came to pass there would be two sides, and people from all walks of life would be taking their places on either side of the divide...I seriously doubt it would be all people who have no civil authority against all people who do have civil authority.

 

[JWarren]

If legislation passes it will be us, the majority, who vote away our rights.

"Us" and "Majority" are not synonymous terms in all cases.


For instance... *I* didn't vote for the Stimulus Package. Neither did my Senators or Representatives. How could you possibly say that *I* voted anything?

What you are doing is suggesting a collectivist view that if you are part of the process you are responsible for actions or views that you may not have supported or vehemently opposed. I reject that notion.

I seriously doubt it would be all people who have no civil authority against all people who do have civil authority.

You should read a bit about how civilians were treated during the Civil War. When the Union came through my family's home, they slaughtered all the farm animals, took food, and threw animal entrails/carcasses into the well to prevent it from being usable by enemy forces.


I’ve talked to my share of people with “interesting” beliefs. I’ve also talked to plenty whose beliefs have turned out to be TRUE. I had an uncle that talked quite a bit about testing LSD on soldiers in the 60’s. Everyone thought he was nuts until it was proven a few years ago with the released CIA documents.

End the end, your comfort is irrelevant as are mine. I’m quite certain that you hold beliefs that I disagree with, and vice-versa.


-- John

 

[sernv99]

good post, not afraid to voice your thoughts on this!!



yeah, lot of anti-military postings from members on here, considering it's the military who has been spilling their guts for us to protect our freedoms. Seems ironic huh? Just blows my mind...then they think they can hold off a advancing Russian or Chinese airborne infantry division on their own, with the guns they have, without the US military..then we have posters thinking the CIA or FBI is conducting "black ops" missions to get rid of guns and snatch gun owning Americans away to a secret detention center

this kind of tin-foil hat rhetoric is exactly the kind that is supported by right wing extremists.....anti-military, anti-gov't, supporting their arguments with NO facts to back them up (show me where the CIA is involved in taking gun rights away from Joe Average citizen )

 

[Cannonball888]

Its the us versus them mentality I don't care for.

Of course you don't. You're from WV. You broke away from VA and sided with the Federals. Sorry for upsetting your peace in them thar hills

 

[Walkalong]

Someone get a compass out, this one is headed south.......

 

[Lone_Gunman]

If legislation passes it will be us, the majority, who vote away our rights.

If legislation passes, it will be passed by our Congress, not by citizens individually. Congress may or may not be accurately representing the people if they vote for anti-gun laws. Congress frequently passes laws that the majority of the people do not support. The most recent example of this would be the stimulus bill.

Even if the majority of the people were to vote away their gun rights, that still does not make it right. We would simply be living under a tyranny of the majority. Our republican system of government is designed to prevent such things, and ensure that minority rights are protected as well.

if things fell apart, got that bad, because the military is made up of us, then it stands to reason that there is going to be decent on their behalf as well

Some would be decent, some would not. Remember Hurricane Katrina. The military was not involved in gun confiscation during that one, but several law enforcement agencies were. That national guard played a role also. Would the military be used for a similar role in a larger scale disaster?

I’m quite certain that you hold beliefs that I disagree with, and vice-versa.

Same for me.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Sided with the Federals? And I was called derisive because I wanted a semi/other rifle forum? I give up.

 

[kingpin008]

Jim, notice the "winking smiley" icon at the end of Cannonball's post. He's being sarcastic. No need to get all twisted up about things.

 

[45Badger]

Sided with the Federals? And I was called derisive because I wanted a semi/other rifle forum? I give up.

Winners write history, losers whine about it forever.

You should read a bit about how civilians were treated during the Civil War. When the Union came through my family's home, they slaughtered all the farm animals, took food, and threw animal entrails/carcasses into the well to prevent it from being usable by enemy forces.

1860's version of effective supply chain management. Armies on the move foraged for food. Were they nice about it? Probably not.

I figure all the talk about is end of the world, real class warfare, civil war, etc is just folks letting off steam and having "Walter Mitty" dreams. Every now and then a kook like Timothy McVay will act out, but that's about all that will happen. We do have the power of the vote and if the vote goes against what you or I want in a narrow sense, we still have the ability to influence outcomes and pactices with lobbying, letter writing, tea parties, rallies, etc. And then we get to vote again. In my lifetime, people on both sides of the political aisle thought the "world was over" when Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and Bush (W) were elected. Now we have Obama. It's still here, and it's not "over".

Peace out

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Thanks Kingpin,but I have no idea how sensitive people south of MD line may be about such things.

 

[hangovur]

Unfortunately our society has devolved into a two sided, black and white, good and evil, right and wrong system. As Americans (in general it feels) we have lost the ability to see any Grey area.

I will keep in on topic for these forums and use the 2A as an example.

How many people on this board look at the 2A and say "shall not be infringed." means that everyone should have any type of gun they want and that is that..... black and white. They ignore the fact that there are limitations (even if subtle) on nearly every Amendment and it is not so black and white.

On the other side you have the Antis who say none of us should have any guns for any reason. They of course fear all guns mostly out of ignorance.



Unfortunately the extremist on both sides drive away many of the people in the middle. I for example fully support the 2A, but with common sense laws (I actually agree with most of the restrictions in place now) to protect us all. I am a law abiding citizen and I have kept my nose clean witch allows me to purchase all the tools necessary to defend myself and my family from a reasonable threat.


So I find myself in a precarious position because while I support the 2A, I feel groups like the NRA and many extremist (like many on this board) are too far to the extreme for me to associate myself with. But then again, I don't want the Pelosis of the country to get their way either.

At the end of the day I am a member of the NRA, but only because there is not a more moderate option. I will tell you that the NRA and extremist often do more harm to their own cause than Brady or Pelosi ever could by making all of us gun owners look like a bunch of gun crazed maniacs.

This may not be the most popular opinion on THR, but I will tell you there are many many people like myself who are gun owners, support the 2A, but simply do not want to be associated with the NRA and what they perceive as a bunch of right wing nut jobs.

EDIT* and btw, I joined the NRA because they do seem to be the closest thing to moderation I can find.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Thanks Kingpin,but I have no idea how sensitive people south of MD line may be about such things.

Most of us have gotten over it pretty well, seeing as how that was now 4 or 5 generations ago.

there are many many people like myself who are gun owners, support the 2A, but simply do not want to be associated with the NRA and what they perceive as a bunch of right wing nut jobs.

Could you be more specific as to what you are talking about? What has th NRA done that you do not agree with?

 

[JWarren]

there are many many people like myself who are gun owners, support the 2A, but simply do not want to be associated with the NRA and what they perceive as a bunch of right wing nut jobs.

Translation:


"There are many people like me who want to have guns but do not want to do anything to insure that we keep them because I am worried about what other people may think of me."



The NRA is largely considered the most MODERATE of the gun rights organizations and routinely gets criticism for that fact. If a person considers them too extreme, it is a telling statement.

It is reminiscent of those "gun owners" that would jump on EVERY thread here urging gun owners to vote for Obama in the months leading up to the November elections and then just kinda disappeared afterward.

Being a gun owner doesn't make a person an "ally." Being a person who supports the RKBA and votes RKBA does.


Long ago, I stopped obsessing about what others thought of me. When you are worried about that, you are admitting that they are more "relevant" than you and that their OPINION matters more than yours.

I can tolerate a "Nutjob" who truly supports the RKBA far more than I can someone who simply enjoys the "benefits" and bows to our opposition for the sake of "image."


-- John

 

[TexasRifleman]

Nutjob checking in here.

One of those "wacky" guys that think the Constitution is fairly clear and written well.

"Extremist" because I don't try to hide what I believe in so my neighbors who voted for Obama will still invite me to their pool parties.

And as for the claim that this particular Internet Forum is full of people who bash the military, that's insane.

And as for this:

I'll try to elaborate...most of the time you here "they" "them" or someone in reference whos going to take our guns away but its really hard to get them to pin point who this is.

That comes from not your knowing the subject very well most likely. People use the term "they" and "them" all the time, not because it's hard to pinpoint who "they" are, but because the groups are many and when talking about the subject in general there is no point repeatedly listing them out.

We know very well who "they" are, it just takes too long to type;

Violence Policy Center
Handgun Control Inc
Brady Campaign
IANSA / United Nations / UNESCO
Nancy Pelosi/D Feinstien/ Bloomberg/ many other elected officials with gun control agendas
AHSA
George Soros
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence


There are many others. They are all very clear on their desires, that gun ownership in this country should be completely outlawed altogether, or restricted in such a fashion as to exclude pretty much everyone that is not wealthy and then limited only to a small number of firearms with basic hunting potential only, certainly no self defense type of firearms.

Simply saying "they" want to pass more and more restrictive gun laws is not "tin foil" nor is it the lack of being able to identify who "they" are, it's simply easier than typing out the MASSIVE number of people and organizations that exist to work toward their goals of restricting firearm ownership.

As for saying that you're comfortable with the laws currently on the books, that's all well and good and no one would fault that attitude. I suspect most gun owners fall roughly into that category.

The problem comes when "they" (see how I didn't want to type the whole list again?) try to pass one more sliver of gun control under the guise of "common sense" it is always sold as just a tiny little thing, won't impact most people, etc, that the folks who are sort of in the middle and passive about the whole thing tend to say "sure, fine, makes sense I guess".

It's called Creeping Incrementalism, and "they" are very good at it. Meanwhile we worry about what people might think if we were to actually say what we believe.

Branded as "wackos" or "extremists" if we so much as mention the fact that maybe enough is enough and we shouldn't tolerate any more gun control.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Unfortunately the extremist on both sides drive away many of the people in the middle. I for example fully support the 2A, but with common sense laws (I actually agree with most of the restrictions in place now) to protect us all. I am a law abiding citizen and I have kept my nose clean witch allows me to purchase all the tools necessary to defend myself and my family from a reasonable threat.

That's a paradoxical viewpoint.

Let me spell it out for you:

All free men and women should have unfettered access to arms*

All men and women who have proven they cannot be trusted with weapons should not be free, because they will be able to get their hands on them.


*I do not include nuclear weapons in that category because I don't believe any individual or government should have that kind of power. While the founding fathers knew well that weapons would advance, I don't think they foresaw the development of weapons that could literally destroy entire countries at the push of a button. God-like power should be reserved for, well, God. And I say that as an agnostic.

 

[Cohibra45]

Good post TexasRifleman,

It's the same old thing..........again and again!!!!!!!!!

We (gun owners) have something called the Constitution/Rights on our sides (among other things) and They (the list of Anti's) don't like it. They think They are better than We and We don't have the understanding/comprehension/compassion that They have. They think that They should be able to 'help' Us by passing more laws that take away Our (We and They, Everyone's actually) gun rights. They 'feel' that just by taking away the implements of death/killing/maiming (Their points of view; Our points of view....self preservation, protecting Us and Our families/property, and generally keeping Evil at bay), the World (Mankind) would simply 'evolve' and all hatred/lusting/coveting disappears!!!

They basically think We can't, don't, won't, or are capable of understanding or seeing their side (feelings/points of view). They think They have the responsibility for the whole World and it's Their duty to do everything in Their power to persuade Us that We are wrong!!!

They are the one's that have blinders/rose colored glasses/dreams of a better world. "If only We could see that They are trying to make the World a better/safer/cleaner place to live" is a mantra the Media and They want the rest of the World to see.

We can show Them all the 'Facts and Figures', but They are just going on gut feelings and emotions and for Them, that is good enough. And if it's good enough for Them, then We should be satisfied and be happy. After all, They will take the responsibility for all Our safety up to and when something bad happens. When something bad does eventually happen, They will do more hand wringing and soul searching and find that some other 'evil' implement is really the root cause, not mankind's tendencies toward greed, covetousness, lusting, and hatred of different things and people.:banghead:

All We can do is keep vigilant. We need to remember that They really mean well. They are just going about it with closed minds and blinders with rose colored glasses on. The main concern I have is They, like our past VP Al Gore, are saying that the debate is over and Man is the only reason for Global warming and Guns are the reason for all the evil Man does to Man........Sounds familiar!!! They don't want to debate (or even discuss) anymore. They are right and We are Their responsibility!!!!!!

 

[LibertyCalls]

If legislation passes it will be us, the majority, who vote away our rights.

Not sure what country you're living in, but here in the new Socialist Republic of Amerikka, the government does what it wants with your rights, and you either go along with it - or find yourself on government's homegrown terrorist lists. Right now, this administration does what it likes, without regard for the brewing storm. (pardon the pun)

Don't believe me? Just ask the heads of major corp's who are probably wondering every night whether or not they'll have a job tomorrow or not. If Big Brother decides you're bad for Amerikka, they'll fire you. Not the company, the government.

I've been paranoid for years, but turns out....it wasn't paranoia. It was foresight.

As for me and my family, where do we sign?

Liberty FIRST, and FOREVER.

Owl

 

[Titan6]

There is a lot of irony in this thread.

The family legend goes that my Grandfather (also a WV Mountain Boy) marched to Blair Mountain, WV when the state of WV fought the people and the state, even though they were clearly in the wrong, received federal military assistance to put down the insurrection which was about 10,000 strong (that is 10,000 men under arms for the union side)

The Union Wars had gone on for decades and the people were clearly being oppressed. In this case the "them" were the states of PA and WV in cahoots with big business. This was less than 90 years ago and has largely been forgotten or dismissed in public education by "Them". Don't ever assume there won't be another "them" and that it can never happen again.

Winners write history, losers whine about it forever.

oddly the losers wrote the history of the Civil War anyway....

Edit- Something else just occurred to me. The DHS put out a report on right wing extremism that points it out as violent and the most dangerous. Especially as the talk about the economy and civil rights. They (them) also put out a report on leftist extremism saying that leftist groups were nonviolent! Hilarious I know. Completely ignores all of the violent terror attacks in the last 30 years in the US by the left wing, which make up the cast majority of the attacks.. If this is not "them" at work I don't what is.

 

[runrabbitrun]

TexasRifleman's post #14 echoes many of my thoughts on this matter,
as well as Cohibra45's post #16.
Apparently millions of others must feel similar to this as well.
(Seen the run on guns/ammo in the last several months?)

I love how law abiding citizens who speak their mind
are now tagged as 'nut jobs', 'whackos', or 'right wing extremists'.
Always consider the source of these unfounded attacks.

Are these new 'buzz terms' born from the gun grabbers?
Seems to be coming up a lot these days in those pre arranged 'talking points'
segments the grabbers come up with to support their oppressive views.
Whether on TV or internet forums. lol

If anyone's considered an 'extremist' or 'nut job' for supporting the Constitution...
I'd be proud to stand with them and defend our freedoms.

 

[Cannonball888]

 

[Neverwinter]

Not sure what country you're living in, but here in the new Socialist Republic of Amerikka, the government does what it wants with your rights, and you either go along with it - or find yourself on government's homegrown terrorist lists. Right now, this administration does what it likes, without regard for the brewing storm. (pardon the pun)

I agree, it was a poor way to start out the millennium.

Don't believe me? Just ask the heads of major corp's who are probably wondering every night whether or not they'll have a job tomorrow or not. If Big Brother decides you're bad for Amerikka, they'll fire you. Not the company, the government.

I've got the worlds smallest violins playing for those executives who now have to worry like the rest of us.

 

[DavidIcke]

It is very easy to use a dictionary and determine that "The Civil War" was not really a "civil war".

Look it up for yourselves. One side was following the Constitution and one was not.

War against Southern Independence, War of Yankee Agression are more appropriate.

And as for "them", well:

Why Americans Carry Guns
4-23-9
http://www.rense.com/general85/whyam.htm



PEOPLE ASK WHY

Why I Carry a Gun


I don't carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.


I don't carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.


I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.


I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the
world and the necessity to protect myself from it.


I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the constitutional limitations of government.


I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating
myself for failing to be prepared to protect my family and property.


I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and
not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.


I don't carry a gun just because I'm constitutionally guaranteed this right.
I carry a gun because history has proven it to be the final defense against
a tyrannical, oppressive, police state-type of government.


I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a superior person.
I carry a gun because only those prepared know how to take care
of themselves and the ones they love.

I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because being unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am
inadequate and probably get killed.


I don't carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful
to me.

Police Protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves.
Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the
crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to give up my liberty and freedom.

.....author unknown


**********************************************

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million peaceful citizens who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 innocents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

-----------------------------

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

------------------------------


With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
With guns, we are "free"! Without them, we are "slaves"!



During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! Now, because the U.S. government and DHS are so fearful of 90-million, well-armed, law-abiding American citizens, they haven't declared martial law.


The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory being defenseless. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

SWITZERLAND ISSUES a gun to EVERY HOUSEHOLD and provides training! SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN-RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

IT'S A NO-BRAINER! DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

I'm a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment! If you are too, please forward.

Tim McVeigh is mentioned. Oh, did anyone else here read "Secrets Worth Dying For: Timothy James McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing" by David Paul Hammer and Jeffrey William Paul?

What about Attorney Jesse Trentadue and the death of his brother?

What about Officer Terry Yeakey and his death?

And as for tyranny, just look at any mainstream history book and you can see that governments kill. If you don't like it and want to resort to ad hom attacks, take a long walk on a short pier.

http://dixienet.org/New Site/index.shtml

The real domestic terrorists were (and are) those who oppose our federated, constitutional republic and the worldview which upholds it. Indeed, Abe Lincoln and his minions have sired a long line of domestic terrorists, including most recently George W. Bush and Barack Hussein Obama (and all who aid them in their misrule). We might throw the larger part of Congress into the mix as well.

Most of what the U.S. government does is beyond the bounds of the Constitution. That makes it unlawful. That which is unlawful ultimately terrorizes society. Jefferson told us that the fundamental law of the land should be viewed as chains to bind a singularly dangerous beast (the general government). For a while the beast was successfully bound; however, he slipped his chains for good in 1865 and our republic of republics was lost. Today, we live under a strange combination of socialism and fascism that would surely please a Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, or Mao as much as it would disgust our Founders.

--Dr. J. Michael Hill - LS President

The Real Domestic Terrorists
http://dixienet.org/New Site/therealdomesticterrorist.shtml



JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION
OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP

America's Most Aggressive Defender
of Firearms Ownership
http://www.jpfo.org/

Reasons Why You Should Join JPFO.

1. You support the preservation of the Second Amendment.
2. You believe all of the Bill of Rights must be protected.
3. You believe in protecting your life and the lives of your loved ones.
4. You realize educating the public with JPFO intellectual ammunition may prove more useful than lobbying Congress.
5. You detest American gun laws based on 1938 Nazi weapons laws.
6. You know "Gun Control" facilitates genocide

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart

First, it makes common sense: unarmed defenseless people have no hope against armed aggressors. Second, it states the historical truth: evil governments did wipe out 170,000,000 innocent non-military lives in the 20th Century alone.

--JPFO

And the NRA is part of the problem too. Controlled opposition.

"The only no-compromise gun lobby in Washington."-Ron Paul about:
Gun Owners of America
http://gunowners.org/

 

[LibertyCalls]

TexasRifleman, I salute you. Great post. Great points. On target 100%.


Neverwinter, maybe your violin would be a bit larger if it was your job and career that you'd worked for all your life.

Sounds like you have a case of the "RPDS" ( Rich people derangement syndrome) to me. You should be behind the CEO's for two reasons:

1. They pay most of the taxes in this country.
2. They are losing their jobs not because of free-market economic practices, but because a Socialist in the White House has ordered it(virtually). May I remind anyone here that needs reminding that we have NO KING. Just a President that thinks he's king. For now.

 

[happygeek]

Just as good a post by Cohibra45. Personally, as a self described conservative libertarian I can't stand those people that think they're right, you're wrong, the discussion is over, and it's time to take away your rights. We had those people back in the 20s with Prohibition, had them/have them with the War on Drugs currently, as well as banning smoking in bars, among other things. I strongly believe that you should have the right to own a gun and smoke weed (though not at the same time, never handle guns while intoxicated, of course). It's the War on Drugs that fuels gangs and all the gang related violence; which ends up being mis-labeled as gun related since the gangbanger used a pistol.

 

[Titan6]

This thread is smoking now. What? I don't know; but I think it is illegal in 47 states.