The final word on the Steyr M&S series & a ?

[Tropical Z]

First off before i forget.What is the latest on how well .40S&W Steyr mags work in the 9mm and what does this bring the capacity up to?
Ok, i thought id email Steyr directly and see what their take is on the safety of their "dangerous" handgun.First is the ? i emailed them.

"Hello,here in the U.S.,there is an endless debate over
> whether or not it is safe to carry one of your M or S series handguns
with
> a round in the chamber.There are claims being made that your gun is
> lacking a critical piece to prevent accidental discharge if the gun
is
> dropped.What is your take on this? Also,if i get one is there
warranty
> service since things are still a little iffy with Steyr?
> Thanks "

And heres my quick reply from one of the top dogs.

"Dear Sir,
thank you for your interest in our pistols;
Of course it is safe to carry a loaded Steyr pistol......
it features a multiple safety system with an integral drop safety ; be
informed that our pistols had to undergo extensive internal and
external
tests and passed them all.
You might not be aware of the fact that the Steyr M-Series pistol has
been
selected to be the standard issue sidearm of several military and Law
Enforcement entities and you can be assured that it wouldn't if it
would not
meet the drop test criteria according to the applicable standards.

Regarding Service for our products please be informed that our US
Service
Center

DTSS
606 South Front Street
Montezuma, IA 50171
Telephone (641) 623-3098

will take care of any warranty issues that might arise.
Furthermore we would like to inform you that our own operation in the
USA

Steyr Mannlicher USA, Inc.
311 Hwy 45 Alt S.
West Point, MS 39773
Tel .: (662) 492-8924
Fax : (662) 492-8996
E-mail : [email protected]

will be in full operation by mid February, so there is no need to worry
that
Steyr Mannlicher would let it's customers down.....we never did and
never
will.

We hope that this answers your questions and remain

Sincerely

Ing. Erwin Derntl
Senior Sales Manager

STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH. & Co KG
[email protected]
http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com
Tel: +43 (0) 7252 896 - 211
Fax: +43 (0) 7252 78620 "

Thats it in a nutshell.I think the Steyr gun is good enough for me and i still read here how nice they are and that they are truly a top quality gun.I got a reply back in 48 hours to my question.Thats not bad and its nice to know Steyr is back in business and establishing a beachhead in the USA.

 

[George Hill]

I would have no problem packing one of these.


If the grip fit my hand better that is.

 

[minnesota oldie]

Are you saying that you can load you steyr 40 S&W mags with 9MM and shoot them in you 9MM gun? Do you know this for fact?

 

[arinvolvo]

yes...40 cal mags will fit the 9mm...i know for a fact...i do it every time i shoot my M9.

I beleive the total round count was 12+1

Cant remember specifically.

They will not work without modification however. the feed lips on the mag need to be bent in slightly so that the 9mm round sits at the correct height to be chambered....

A mallet and a 2x4 did the trick. The incidence of failure with the modified mag is slightly higher than the zero (0) failure rate of standard mags, that i have experienced.

9mm in 9mm mags have produced NO failures of any sort in the thousands of rounds i have fired through my steyr.

However, the modified 40 cal mag has produced a total of 2 failures in the couple hundred rounds i have used it for.

Therefor i only use the modified mag at the range, and not for carry. And yes, i DO carry my steyr...often.

 

[cornbread2]

What military and LEOs carry the Steyr?

And just because Steyr told you they are safe makes it true?

What did you expect them to say?

The Steyr will NEVER get a lot of police contracts because of it's design.

First they are a SINGLE ACTION. Most PD's will not have it because of that. The LEO trend today is mostly DA and DAO.

Also any really good police dept armorer that understands gun design would know they were not as safe as other modern designs and would let it be known that the PD could and would be in really serious trouble because of their choice of carry gun IF something happened. Their lawyers would have fit knowning that their people were carring the Steyr.

The armorers and the few instructors that understood the design would also know that the Steyr has NO great advantage over other modern designs that makes up for it's lack of safety features that almost EVERY other design has.

It would be very foolish for ANY PD to adopt the Steyr so don't expect to see them showing up in many police holsters anytime soon.

The Steyr not only has serious issues with possible ADs but also NDs. Their VERY short and light SA trigger pulls and the fact that one has to put his finger inside the trigger guard to release the manual safety IF it is used makes it MUCH more likely for people to have NDs with than Glocks and other DAO pistols. The trigger on some of the newer Steyr pistols are almost like good 1911 triggers and cops are known to shoot themselves with full DAO triggers under stress.

If the manaul safety is not used that makes it exactly like carring a cocked and UNLOCKED 1911 and not many if ANY PDs would allow their people to carry a single action pistol without a manaul safety.

For the same reason the Springfield XD will never get much police sales.

Steyr can forget about many police contracts for the average cops.

Now it would make a good SWAT and special unit pistol that would not be carried everyday and only used on raids and when combat was expected.

 

[George Hill]

Single action guns are perfectly safe.
The XD is. The Steyr is. The 1911 is.

I don't know about where you live, Cornbread, but around here 1911's are COMMON police sidearms. With all the Sheriff's departments and most of the cities allowing it if the officers choose to carry it and they do. The only ones here in Utah that don't are the State Police and a few of the bigger cities. And out here in the sticks where I am at now... it's probably the most common. And I could have sworn I saw an XD on one cop's hip but didn't have the time to go talked to him about it.
Single action guns are just fine - if the person packing it understands it. The US Military has been using a Single Action for almost 100 years... While the M9 was the main issue - lots of cats still used the M1911 and now some units are issuing the 1911 again. The Officer in charge of the group that captured Saddam has one on him and it's evident in the photos.



Cornbread, your railing against the Steyr has become tedious. If you want to continue to do this, give yourself some credibility and back up your claims of it being unsafe with documentation showing that the gun (Steyer M or S series Specifically) was at fault in an Accidental Discharge. If you can't do that... well... then we will all have understanding of the level of credibility we are dealing with here. If we were talking about RG revolvers, then that would be one thing... But Steyr makes a lot of guns that a lot of people consider to be world class. For them to make a handgun that is dangerous is a huge disconnect. Just because some military unit doesn't issue it doesn't mean it isn't good. Look at the F-20 Tigershark. Fantastic jet fighter... but it just didn't get issues. Does that mean it was crap? I see advertisments for all sorts of ammunition and knives and watches and notepads and pens and underwear and backpacks that all claim to be used by US NAVY SEALS and SPECIAL FORCES... for crying out loud, no man uses the same thing as the next if this was actually true. Does this make the product more viable? Really. Back it up - or drop it off.

 

[mephisto]

The ogre has spoken. Take heed to his words.

 

[Tropical Z]

I guess i feel that the designers wanted something new and not just a replay of older designs.Apparently this was their solution whatever it is.When those defective Vectors came out,wasnt it apparent right away that the gun had a serious design flaw? How long have the M and S series Steyrs been out-3 years maybe?

 

[cornbread2]

Sure some single actions are safe.

Sure some PDs do allow SAs. Most DO NOT.

The single actions that are safe have a built in automatic safey that stops the fall of the hammer or striker IF the sear fails to hold it. The 1911 and XD have such features.

The Steyr has NO SUCH SAFETY.

I am not the only one that knows this.

Anyone that truely understands gun design also knows this.

One does not need "documentation" to see the facts.

 

[tetchaje1]

Ahhhhhh. Thanks George!

I agree that 1911's are commonly used by LEOs in Utah. I even see them on officer's hips in Salt Lake City on a fairly regular basis. Heck, I even saw an officer with a Model 66 revo on his hip a few months back. That was refreshing to see.

As far as the Steyr design being "unsafe" we have all been down this road before and it is just a waste of bandwidth. The sear catch mates with the firing pin catch and acts as a firing pin block until the trigger moves the sear rearwards and the sear drops out of the way of the firing pin catch. It is an unconventional design and makes some people get their skirts in a huff. I have never heard of a documented Steyr AD (not "Jimmy Mac's" hearsay..."My best-friend's-sister's-boyfriend's-uncle heard of one at the range three years ago... ).

We've got better things to talk about, Cornbread. Let's move on.

 

[extremefishin00]

Tropical Z,

I think the Steyr has actually been out for 5 or 6 years now.

Chris

 

[mrapathy2000]

hey cornbread I thought you said you were not going to speak on the issue anymore? its what you posted in the M9 thread bout a week ago.

hang it up already or post some evidence like a video of it happening with a unmodified steyr with all parts unmodified from factory spec, list range,city and witnesses for possible investigation. false information and modifying weapon to fail can be a liability as it can hurt steyr and other companies sales and peoples jobs.

steyr M&S series has been out since 1999 I believe.

M40 magazine will hold 12-13 rounds of 9mm. to be reliable with 9mm the 40 mags need to have the feedlips closed slightly. the magazine has to still hold and feed 10 rounds of 40 after any modding. as is the 9mm tends to jump out of the mag with slightest movement.

 

[Zundfolge]

The single actions that are safe have a built in automatic safey that stops the fall of the hammer or striker IF the sear fails to hold it. The 1911 and XD have such features.

The Steyr has NO SUCH SAFETY.

The issue is not whether or not the Steyr has such a safety, but wheteher such a safety necessary.

In order for the sear to fail to hold the striker you would have to either move the slide upward (I don't remember the exact diminsion, but it is significantly greater then the play between the slide and frame) or the material of the sear would have to somehow fail.

The amount of damage/deterioration that would have to be done to the pistol in order for either of these situations to exist would have to be so great that it obviously unsafe, probably unusable (and more then likely in multiple pieces).

I wouldn't mind that you keep bringing it up if only you would actually post some data or evidence that the pistols are unsafe. If you where willing to debate the merits of your position with some facts and figures that would be fine, but please drop the condecending "everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot who shouldn't even own a gun" schtick.

 

[George Hill]

And Cornbread has again spoken, and again with nothing to back it up. Instead, he just hints that the rest of us are just stupid for not agreeing with him.
Very nice.
Just as was expected.

I think he is looking for something here.


Man, all this talk of cornbread has made me hungry... I could go for some cornbread and chili with a piece on the side with some honey and butter...

 

[cornbread2]

Question for George Hill and Tropical Z.

Do you OWN a Steyr pistol or have a few years PERSONAL experience with them?

 

[Correia]

About the adoption of lighter trigger pulls for police officers, notice that Sig and HK have both come out with extreamly light double actions that are dang near single action in pull weight. The Glock is the standard, and has a short light trigger. Shorter and lighter are the wave of the future, not big and heavy. Safe is great, but don't mean jack if you can't hit your target.

Bad news for you Utah guys, Salt Lake County is no longer going to allow the 1911 as a choice. Not for any performance reason, rather that they are cutting back the number of approved handguns to make life easier on the armorers. Right now pretty much anything is allowed, and they are going to cut that down to I believe Glock, Sig, Beretta, or Smith. Rumor has it that they are also prepared to issue the XD, however Springfield does not have an armorer school, or a unit armorer certification program.

This is second hand info, so may not be accurate.

 

[tetchaje1]

Question for George Hill and Tropical Z.

Do you OWN a Steyr pistol or have a few years PERSONAL experience with them?

Caesar has spoken, folks. That one just blew the bank.

Tropical Z...time to sell your Steyrs so that you won't be able to make any worthwhile contribution to this thread...

If I was a troll, I could ask Cornbread in the same spirit how many engineering degrees he has...

 

[George Hill]

I have some personal experiences with the Steyr, Yes. I've put about 200 rounds through a Steyr M and about 100 through a Steyr S.
At no point did either fire off by themselves.
I believe I have stated many times that the reason I have not purchased one id because I find the grip angle to be all wrong for me me.
Let me explain that... When I get a good grip on the gun, and bring the gun up to eye level - the muzzle is pointing up over the target. This isn't cool for a gun that could be used during a stress fire situation. In the heat of the moment one could rip off a whole magful of shots and have every round go over the aggressors head to zero effect.
For other folks, the grip angle is fine and the gun presents dead on.
Because it doesnt for me - I've skipped buying the gun. If it was, I'd have picked one up because I think they are very cool guns made by a company with a long history of making very cool and very good guns.
Again...

Please bring some documentation to the table next time and stop wasting people's time.

The Steyr M and S series guns are not dangerous.

 

[arinvolvo]

I have thousands of rounds through my M....and you are right George..not once did it go off by itself.

I have done some amatuerish testing of my own....I simply held the gun one handed, pointed down range, and whacked the back of the slide with a rubber mallet about 10 times...no dice...never went off. So with that...I holstered it, and have been carrying it ever since.

 

[Flashpoint]

Tropical Z -

As I'm sure you know, I am a Steyr owner, and love the gun, but the info you presented, though good, would not win any debates.

If the manaul safety is not used that makes it exactly like carring a cocked and UNLOCKED 1911

True, because the Steyr would still have a trigger safety and the 1911 would still have the grip safety, but I would much rather the trigger safety on a SA than a grip safety.

Steyr has NO great advantage over other modern designs that makes up for it's lack of safety features that almost EVERY other design has.

For me it does- it points better than anything I have picked (George must just have wierd hands ) the trigger is better than any other polymer gun I have picked up, the sites work better than anything else I have used, and the smooth round design makes it a joy to carry.

What military and LEOs carry the Steyr?

According to the latest news, this pistol was adopted and purchased in quantities by Royal Malaysia Police in 2002.
(Information taken from site)

 

[minnesota oldie]

I enjoy my Steyrs', cornbread on the other hand gives me heartburn.

 

[Flashpoint]

Tropical Z


You might see if that guy at Steyr will drop some names.

 

[Zundfolge]

I wouild love to have Wilhelm Bubits' email address and send him either the links to the threads on TFL and here, or just bundle up all the info in those threads and ask him.

I agree that the email recieved from Steyr is lacking (but only because they weren't asked more detailed questions about the issue here).



Also, we've piled up on Cornbread a bit, but frankly I don't want him to stop engaging in this debate ... I just want him to do so in a polite and professional manner.

If it turns out he's right then I'll gladly eat my hat and stop carrying my Steyr (don't expect that to happen ... and I don't wear a hat ... but you know what I mean).

 

[George Hill]

"If it turns out he's right then I'll gladly eat my hat"

Agreed.
But we need more than rhetoric to go on.

 

[js2013]

As long as everything is in spec the Steyr is perfectly safe, period. This isn't rocket science!