The flip side of ultra-light is ultra-dead

[Cosmoline]

Staying safe is something that resides between your ears, not in your pack.

I've seen too much gear fail, or get lost, or not live up to its expectations. Even when equipment does do everything you expect of it (rare) it's still no substitute for being smart.

Sorry, but I'm not going to trust my life to gadgetry. I'll sink or swim based on my abilites, not my possessions.

Nobody is claiming you should trust your life to gadgets. I have little faith in gadgets, which is why I DON'T carry the ultra-light dodads that seem so popular these days. I go with old and heavy. Wool, canvas, steel. I even have a calcium carbide lamp because I've seen batteries fail in the cold many times.

But a complete first aid kit, a backup set of clothes, a viable heat source and solid tools for rigging camp are not "gadgets."

 

[sm]

Well there is one advantage to driving a smaller p/u , I can get to and fro trails the bigger truck folks have to hike down and back. My toolbox is...err...stocked.

Fifteen years old, hiking and portaging canoes in Canada. Temps dropped all of a sudden in the middle of a lake, rain actually hurt, wind biting and whitecapping when we finally made it to shore.

Fire.

Everyone was cold, wet, fear of hypothermia...folks shaking so bad.

I was chided for bringing some stuff, I reached for the Red waxed paper shell, in 12 ga, inverted was a 20ga, sealed by electrical tape. Inside strike anywhere kitchen matches - pc of broken needle file. I used a B-day candle to get a fire going.

My back-up plan, cotton balls saturated with petroleum jelly in a glass jar some medicine came in. Mag starter.

Back-up Back up, that foil pouch from a box of C Rations...I knew inside was that green book of waterproof matches.

The rest of that trip I never heard another word about me toting that 'extra' stuff. Two folks shared one pack b/t them. It was not a burden, it was being prepared.

My little GI first aid kit came in handy too. Of all things we check in with a Ranger station. He found out I had used mine. "Here kid, I have a replacement for you". Totally shocked, very humbled I accepted.

Later ( back home in the South) I would finally get me a brass match holder from Marbles...and the brass compass too for a back-up back-up plan.

Didn't have some of the stuff back then, truth is I couldn't afford some of the new offerings anyway.

Comforting - not comfortable

Applies to a lot of matters in life.

Tea Lights.

I have used these so many times for starting fires, punching holes in a tin can as a light, heating something to eat...They are light, do not take up much room, cheap and so handy.

 

[Ryder]

Yup, and a friend of mine just got plowed over by a 2-ton car and was killed. His riding skill never played into it. ...
Greg

Sorry to hear that Greg. How do you figure there was nothing he could do? Is that even what you are saying? You fail to mention safety gear or how this relates to me. Always willing to learn. Send private if you like.

Here's what I've learned. If I let all those people who ran stops hit me, it would have been my fault. If I slam into those oncoming cars with a habit of turning in front of me, my fault. If those two semi-trucks racing each other around a curve up a two lane mountain road had ground me into head-on hamburger, my fault. When cars crash in front of me and I fail to go around them since stopping in time is not possible, my fault. Every now and then someone purposely tries to murder me on the interstate. If they ever succeed, my fault. I assume all repsonsibility when I am on the bike and I'd bet that's what these extreme hikers do also.

Wheres the fun in that?

I do it for a sense of accomplishment. Triumph is a euphoric feeling. The greater the challenge the greater the truimph. I've endured rough situations by fooling myself into thinking of them as fun but you're right, it isn't, except perhaps in memories.

Rescue - These people are far from helpless. They rescue themselves. Remember the guy who cut off his arm with a dull pocket knife? He travelled light.

Death predictions - Is this meant to deter? Comes across as "you'll shoot your eye out kid".

 

[NMshooter]

Use common sense.

Carry useful gear, and no more weight than you are accustomed to.

Personally I would prefer to be accustomed to carrying a 40 lb. pack, but I have my reasons...

And you should still know how to get by with nothing, so if you end up losing everything you still have some options.

It is not a matter of either-or, but how much of both knowledge and equipment you need.

 

[MechAg94]

I think the two sides on this thread are standing in the same place but looking in different directions.

 

[Cosmoline]

Rescue - These people are far from helpless. They rescue themselves. Remember the guy who cut off his arm with a dull pocket knife? He travelled light.

If your role model is a fellow who had to slowly amputate his arm with a cheap leatherman knockoff, might I suggest a new role model?

Death predictions - Is this meant to deter? Comes across as "you'll shoot your eye out kid".

It's intended to remind the ignorant that nature and accidents can knock you flat even if you're fit and have a perfectly fine plan on paper. If you're not prepared, a mishap or bad turn of weather can go from inconvenient to lethal. The difference between the two outcomes has as much to do with what you remembered to bring as what's between your ears. These folks who think it's easy to make fire from a few basic flints in the middle of a blizzard or cold rainstorm amaze me. I've been there and done that, but the effort is so exhausting and risky I long ago decided to pack a container of naptha and a windproof lighter at a bare minimum. Petroleum byproducts are wonderful things.

 

[torpid]

Remember the guy who cut off his arm with a dull pocket knife? He travelled light.

If your role model is a fellow who had to slowly amputate his arm with a cheap leatherman knockoff, might I suggest a new role model?

He wouldn't have got himself in that situation if he hadn't have been burdened with the knife in the first place.

Instead of taking a dull knife to amputate for a mistake, you don't make any.

 

[rwc]

Whoaaaaa Nelly! Let's all turn the burners down a notch.

When I posted this article I really only intended to provide some information on a non-mainstream style of backpacking for folks to consider in their own strategies/contingency planning. I think there is plenty of room for debate of style without personalizing the shortcomings of someone using a style you think is either (a) idiotic or (b) hopelessly archaic. Part of what makes the US great is that we do have the freedom to go off in the woods and break our necks doing some darn fool thing.

And yes, sometimes that means "we the people" bear the cost of either rescuing that darn fool or hauling out his or her remains. I think it is a small collective price to pay in exchange for the freedom of the hills (as someone else once called it).

If we accept that there is room for reasonable minds to differ, then perhaps we can talk about the strengths and weaknesses of either traditional or fast-packing approaches. As some have pointed out, "mother nature" is cold and unforgiving.

Disclaimer - When I've gone "fast and light" it has usually been as a consequence of wanting to climb something that requires hauling another 20 or 30 pounds of gear along and shaving ounces on sleeping gear, food, or shelter is part of being able to do what I want to do, far from paved roads. That said, I always look first to the weather and don't attempt such things if there is even a reasonable chance of getting hammered by a storm. Could it still happen? Sure, but that is a risk I and my partners are willing to take. No one I climb with has less than 10 years experience and most of us far more (from the Cascades to the Himalaya). And as such things are measured, we're not particularly "hard core." But we are all still alive.

So let's accept that our fellow THR's might make different choices than we would. Some of them we might even consider foolish in the extreme. We can politely point out what we view as their shortcomings and risks, and say - "fare thee well" along with a hope that they said good bye to the ones they love and left behind a will.

 

[Lucky]

Guys thanks for vaseline and cotton-batten advice.

If you can sneak it in on cotton, and it starts fires even better, sounds like a plan!

But no way am I taking the ribbing for bringing a bottle of vaseline! Lol. That would be funny.

 

[torpid]

So let's accept that our fellow THR's might make different choices than we would. Some of them we might even consider foolish in the extreme. We can politely point out what we view as their shortcomings and risks, and say - "fare thee well" along with a hope that they said good bye to the ones they love and left behind a will.

Fair enough!

(When you light n' fast folks die, can I have all your stuff that you left at home?)



Seriously though, I think many of the light packers are a lot more intelligent and survival oriented than might be determined from the "don't make mistakes" quotes we keep harping on.

I understand where the "nimble is good" ethos is coming from, and I think it's up to each individual to pack according to his experience level, but also be somewhat prepared for unforseeable mistakes as well- even if that simply means having a plan B.

"I will have a perfect hike, and will not allow anything bad to happen to me" is not a sound plan A, when "Um... see plan A?" is your plan B.

.

 

[Cosmoline]

He wouldn't have got himself in that situation if he hadn't have been burdened with the knife in the first place.

Instead of taking a dull knife to amputate for a mistake, you don't make any.

Much easier said than done in real life. Take those hikers on Hood. Their mistake was not really in assuming it would be safe to climb Hood or make the try. It appeared at Timberline as though things would be fine if they went quickly. The mistake was not going prepared to encounter a blizzard and have to hunker down for a few days. If they'd had proper clothing, a set of backup clothes and some basic equipment to build a proper snow shelter and supply some minimal heat they would have been fine. As it is they had to claw their way into the side of the ice with no tools and improper cotton clothes. They died. Badly. And the moral of the story is simple. Had you or I been in that same set of circumstances, WE ALSO WOULD HAVE DIED BADLY unless we'd brought the basic gear and supplies to survive.

There's nothing wrong with packing SMARTLY with the minimal amount of proper gear. That's the old tale of Amundsen vs. Scott. Scott weighed his men down with pointless scientific equipment and man-hauled to the pole. Amundsen opted to skip the science and focus on one goal--get to the pole fast and get back. That does NOT mean Amundsen didn't lay depots and didn't bring plenty of extra essentials from food to fuel. He found the best means of moving on the ice--men on skis and dogs hauling supplies--and used it. That's fine and well. The problem comes when people assume they won't make mistakes and pack accordingly.

As far as mountain climbing, I remember my old wilderness survival teacher at college, a man who'd seen it all. He emphasized the importance of depot laying even on what seemed to be "easy" climbs, esp. in remote areas. In the desert or arid regions this may include hauling hundreds of pounds of water up the side of the hill and stowing it before making your assault.

I am convinced the more extreme forms of this "fast and light" movement are the direct product of a lot of urbanites who are used to having the full array of supporting services that the nanny state provides. I find it a dangerous practice and more than that I find the ethos underlying it deeply disturbing.

 

[torpid]

There's nothing in my above quote worth quoting, Cosmoline.

 

[Cosmoline]

There's nothing in my above quote worth quoting, Cosmoline.

That has never stopped me from ranting before

 

[Gordon Fink]

Choosing the right gear is just another survival skill.

~G. Fink

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Stupidity in the mountains will eventually get you killed no matter what gear you carry. That's all I've been trying to say. I apologize if I've been too disagreeable.

"Fast and light" seems to mean something different to me than it does to the others who've posted here. I think this is the source of most of our disagreement.

Fast and light does NOT mean trying to tackle the outdoors in your street clothes, with no gear whatsoever. It does NOT mean climbing without a rope. It does NOT mean mountaineering without a sleeping bag and pad. This kinda thing WILL kill you someday. Darwin takes no prisoners.




Lemme try to explain what light and fast means to me...

First, the conventional/heavy gear way:

• Shelter: Tent (5 lbs)

• Clothing: Several changes of wool clothing (~5 lbs)

• Sleepgear: 15-20 degree synthetic sleeping bag (3 lbs), Thermarest pad (2lbs)

• Cookgear: Whisperlite, steel fuel bottle, set of steel pots (~3 lbs)

• Pack: Durable, spacious (5,000 cu in.) pack (7 lbs)

Total weight for the basics: 25 pounds.



Now, here;s a responsible version of light and fast:

• Shelter: Silicone nylon tarp, lines, stakes (12 oz.)

• Clothing: 1 set heavy weight thermals, one set lightweight thermals, one set nylon outer clothes (~2 lbs)

• Sleepgear: 35 degree down sleeping bag (20 oz), 3/4 length closed cell foam pad (12 oz)

• Cookgear: tin can alcohol stove, plastic fuel bottle, single titanium pot (6 oz)

• Pack: Large "day" pack (2,500 cu in) (2.5 lbs)

Total weight for the basics: less than 8 lbs

(Yes, I know this isn't an all inclusive list of gear. It's just a few of the basics. Don't harp on me because I didn't include rain gear, or first aid, or...)




Light and fast has advantages beyond the minimal weight, too. Most of the lightweight gear is more effective than the conventional stuff, provided you know how to use it effectively.

The tarp, for instance, is far more reliable/durable than a tent: no poles to snap, no zippers to break, no seems to split (and I've seen all of these disable tents in the field). A tarp will be MORE weatherproof than a tent. If you hafta spend a few days riding out a storm, the tarp will provide adequate ventillation to keep you from soaking yourself with condensation. I've never known a tent that can do this. Tarps stay dry when you pitch them in a rainstorm, whereas tents usually end up wet inside of you hafta pitch them in the rain. And the best advantage: a tarp weighs 15% of a good tent, and takes up zero space in your pack. This is light and fast at it's finest.

But these advantages don't come for free. TANSTAAFL. With a tarp, you absolutely must find a good, protected campsite. You hafta know how to pitch a tarp (not nearly as easy as setting up a tent), and you hafta know how to adapt the pitch to match the expected weather. A tarp can handle a light snow, but it'll never be good in a blizzard no matter how carefully it's deployed. This requires still more judgement: you must discipline yourself to get to low elevation before night hits (if you're traveling above the treeline). Tarps, like most L/F gear, are strictly three season equipment.

Light and fast has substantial benefits. But it requires much more judgement. Make your choices and accept the consequences.

 

[Cosmoline]

That clears things up. I actually agree about the tarps. I've been using a heavy weight mule tarp for shelter. A tent, after all, is just a series of tarps linked together. In the old days sourdoughs would build some pretty formidable summer shelters using heavy tarps and on-site wood. No good in winter, but then again neither are most tents.

I also don't use a sleeping bag at all, having found them to be bulky and nearly useless when the real cold comes. I'd say you'd be just as well packing a wool or a few poly fleece blankets as a 35 degree bag. The only good bags are the deep cold ones, and they cost a lot of $$ and make me feel trapped. I'm a big fan of wool, though it does tend to weigh a lot. Wool saved my skin and maybe my life in a propane fire two years ago

 

[handjam]

Derek Hersey?

This guy reminds me of a famous rock climber who used to free-solo hard, long climbs in Yosemite. In case you are unfamiliar, free-soloing is going up with no rope, just your shoes, your shorts, and a chalk bag.

He fell one day when it started to rain while he was a thousand feet up a climb. He had no way to retreat.

Sometimes skill isn't enough, because luck is a double-edges sword, and the bad side of that sword can strike even the most skilled individual at the worst possible time.

 

[pete f]

when i was young, I met a true Maine Guide. He was a man who worked out in the woods all year all weather. He told me one summer about a man who taught him who felt safe walking anywhere with a hatchet. a flint, and a rifle. (I understand there was more to it than that) the concept was that a flint would make fire, a rifle would get food, and a hatchet would build shelter. I spent a few nights living in a shelter he built with just a hatchet. warm, covered, dry and secure. He built the whole thing in a few hours. they knew how to get themselves out of situations. how to build a fire in a driving rain. how to splnt a leg or ankle. Now that experience is (to me ) priceless.

That skill set for the most part has been lost. Go out and find a 1960;s boy scout manual. Go buy the firefox books. however, we have replaced that skill set with others that very well may be important, but that ability to say I can make that, or i can fix that is still critical.

the guy who says "I do not make mistakes." i believe he will die in the woods. or out in the desert. that is the risk he takes. he might be an amazing woodsman, but to have that attitude puts him into the wrong place. to say otherwise, I do not make mistakes, but if i make one, I know that i can adapt or alter my situation to make me survive.

and sometimes even the very very best die at that which they are the best at. Mike Hailwood, Mark Donahoe, Dale Ernhardt. Mark Foo, Lane Frost
Joey Dunlap Jimmy Clark, Bruce McClaren. Linne Ostvold, Regine Cavagnoud were all the best they possibly could be, world champions all when they died doing what they were best at. If you do not think it can happen to you, you are wrong.

 

[Ryder]

Who thinks they can't die or be severely injured? I've yet to meet anyone who tempted fate that didn't know the risks involved. Gotta love invincibility... Whatever that is.

The penalties for over-confidence are severe and I've witnessed the lack of confidence cause failure with such regularity that it must be a law of nature but you've a long row to hoe before proving confidence in yourself is a bad thing. As far as I can tell it'is a requirement.

 

[rwc]

I think Derek died on the Steck Salathe and the speculation at the time was that a hold failed. R&I or Climbing did a long article on him at the time.

My personal favorite sleeping set up is a down sweater, a light synthetic bag, a wool hat, and some dry socks. Nothing is toastier than a down sweater when it is cold out. Not recommended for a rainy day, but if "wet happens" at least the bag won't be completely useless.

Another way to think about "fast and light" is that it lets you justify luxuries you wouldn't otherwise rationalize. About eight years ago I took a group of 9 out on a 3 day walk on the WA coast. My girlfriend at the time and I took light bags, a tarp, ... and a couple aluminum folding chairs. Those chairs were not empty for more than a minute once we made camp.

 

[NMshooter]

A bivy bag can help prevent unwanted company from creeping, crawling, or slithering into your bag with you...

Getting bit by a rattlesnake, scorpion, centipede, etc. is not conducive to comfortable sleep.

 

[rwc]

NMShooter-
Bivy's can't protect you from ... skunks.
About 15 years ago a buddy and I were bivy-ing in the saddle below Baboquivari in Southern Arizona for a winter ascent. We had a nice dinner, left our camp in disarray (no bears in the area) and went to bed in bivy sacks. About an hour later something knocks over our cookpot. I poke my headlamp out of the opening on my bivy sack and slowly turn to see 4 beedy little eyes staring back with a "What are you going to do about it monkey boy?" look.

They took a bite out of everything we had (including dry hot chocolate) and made a thorough mess of everything. They eventually came over and sniffed into my bivy sack - going "ojo a ojo" but leaving me unsprayed.

The climb the next day was wonderful (if hungry) and we never left our food out again.

 

[mitchshrader]

you're both right

skill counts. but the first skill is deciding WHAT gear you need, to do WHAT task.

the fast & light crowd change the TASK.

they'd probably agree with you (at least the sane ones) if you got VERY specific about what your gear was intended to accomplish.

and you'ld probably agree with THEM if they specified exactly what they weren't GOING to do.

at least 2/3 of the time. 'Don't make mistakes' is hype.
hype sells things. it's not about survival.
'Builds strong bodies 12 ways'.. 'Don't leave home without it'.. 'You're in Good Hands'.. any of that seem like TRUTH to you?

CYA, it's the only one you've got. On the OTHER hand, fast IS fun. and if the object is to have fun on a 3 day weekend, i can see avoiding a massive gear tote experience.

All that said, i'm the 'carry your house' type, I don't DO fun, I am in no hurry, and comfort is king. when i'm eating my chili with cheese and crackers and drinking le brewski, it's cause i CARRIED it up the mountain, and if you want freeze dried turkey n rice, go for it.

I ain't sharing, though.