Alexey931
Member
It never occured to me to embrace into my statement weapons of different class and generation... 
The Galil rifle: why the Israeli don't use it?
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There are a lot of reasons the Israelis favor the M16/M4 family over the Galil, cost is only one of them...and not the most important reason.
Light weight, adaptable, easier for smaller or different sized shooters to share the same weapon family, modularity, faster mag changes, less muzzle-heavy, and the list goes on.
I love the Galil, but it's a heavy AK...and (sorry you AK nuts) that's not what modern armies seem to want, with good reason.
A lot of armies and SF forces around the world, that can pick ANYTHING they want and pay retail for it, choose the M4/M16. If they were as inferior as the internet lore goes, that would not be the case.
Light weight, adaptable, easier for smaller or different sized shooters to share the same weapon family, modularity, faster mag changes, less muzzle-heavy, and the list goes on.
I love the Galil, but it's a heavy AK...and (sorry you AK nuts) that's not what modern armies seem to want, with good reason.
A lot of armies and SF forces around the world, that can pick ANYTHING they want and pay retail for it, choose the M4/M16. If they were as inferior as the internet lore goes, that would not be the case.
WeedWhacker
Member
The same logic could be falsely applied to Microsoft Office - very few people choose it because they've researched the alternatives and find it to be superior - they choose it because it's what everyone else uses, they require interoperability, or for political reasons.
Yes, I like the durned heavy Galils.
Some of the SF units, the SAS is a good example, use it because it met their need above all else and it's quite the odd-duck in their arsenal. Other than magazine compatibility, it shares nothing with the MOD's small arms programs but they CHOSE it.
It's one the best small arms systems in the world, and you're kidding yourself if you think it's because it's a political peer-pressure thing.
I'm not sure why the Galil rates 'heavy'. Mine in 9 pounds, give or take, which put it very close to the current M16 with it heavier barrel and add ons. The M16 may have started as a 7 pound rifle, but those days are long one.
As far as the demand for M16, it is interetesting to note that the US is supplying Iraq troops with AKs - not M16. The lack of demand for AK type weapons probably has a alot to do with the fact there are aomething like 45 million already in circulation.
For elite troops, there is no doubt the M16 has a lot ro recommend it. The AK is a very basis battle rifle. The M16 is a modular system. It lends itself to optics mounting and the addition of accessories few rifles can match. Even modern rifles like the G36 lack the mounting options of the M16A4 with M5 Rail Adapter.
As far as the demand for M16, it is interetesting to note that the US is supplying Iraq troops with AKs - not M16. The lack of demand for AK type weapons probably has a alot to do with the fact there are aomething like 45 million already in circulation.
For elite troops, there is no doubt the M16 has a lot ro recommend it. The AK is a very basis battle rifle. The M16 is a modular system. It lends itself to optics mounting and the addition of accessories few rifles can match. Even modern rifles like the G36 lack the mounting options of the M16A4 with M5 Rail Adapter.
Float Pilot
Member
Heck the M-16s are so cheap they are being giving to... guess who....
From the Jerusalem News wire...
.....According to reports from Hamas members of the Palestinian Authority, three truckloads of weapons and ammunition were delivered to the offices of PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas in Samaria and the Gaza Strip last week.
The consignment consisted of up to 3,000 M16 rifles and three million rounds of M16 ammunition.....
The weaponry was delivered with the blessing of the Olmert-led government, which purportedly believed the guns were to be used to strengthen Abbas? Fatah against Hamas........
WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT
From 1995 to 2002 Israel receievd another 140,000 M-16s per the info release below....so there are more than a few kicking around
Notifications to Congress of Pending U.S. Arms Transfers for year 2002
Country Date ...Transmission No. ....Description............. Transfer Type............... Price
Israel 6/5/2002 unnumbered 50,000 excess M16 Rifles Excess Defense Articles...... $4,460,000
Israel 1/23/2002 unnumbered 30,000 excess M16 rifles Excess Defense Articles .........no price listed
Israel 11/18/1997 M16 rifles and ammunition Excess Defense Articles.................................... free
Israel 10/10/1995 30,000 Colt M-16A1 rifles Excess Defense Articles .......................................... free
Israel 2/15/1995 34,744 Colt M-16A1 rifles .....Excess Defense Articles ......................................free
From the Jerusalem News wire...
.....According to reports from Hamas members of the Palestinian Authority, three truckloads of weapons and ammunition were delivered to the offices of PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas in Samaria and the Gaza Strip last week.
The consignment consisted of up to 3,000 M16 rifles and three million rounds of M16 ammunition.....
The weaponry was delivered with the blessing of the Olmert-led government, which purportedly believed the guns were to be used to strengthen Abbas? Fatah against Hamas........
WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT
From 1995 to 2002 Israel receievd another 140,000 M-16s per the info release below....so there are more than a few kicking around
Notifications to Congress of Pending U.S. Arms Transfers for year 2002
Country Date ...Transmission No. ....Description............. Transfer Type............... Price
Israel 6/5/2002 unnumbered 50,000 excess M16 Rifles Excess Defense Articles...... $4,460,000
Israel 1/23/2002 unnumbered 30,000 excess M16 rifles Excess Defense Articles .........no price listed
Israel 11/18/1997 M16 rifles and ammunition Excess Defense Articles.................................... free
Israel 10/10/1995 30,000 Colt M-16A1 rifles Excess Defense Articles .......................................... free
Israel 2/15/1995 34,744 Colt M-16A1 rifles .....Excess Defense Articles ......................................free
GunTech said:
The US is actually supplying the Iraqi military with both. Initially the US supplied them with AKs, but when the Iraqi's got to chose what they wanted to be armed with they chose M16 variants.
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=53489&archive=true
HorseSoldier
Member
I believe the policy changed recently. We're giving them M16s now. Whether or not Iraqi troops will clean their weapons, etc., is a fair question given the usual disdain for PMCS among Arab troops.
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I wouldn't call it "political peer pressure", but most if not all nations that are allied with each other basically use the same weapons, ammo, equipment, vehicles, artillery, helicopters and aircraft. It makes it easier to help each other out and to intergrate their forces when necessary.
When an ally purchases (or is given) and uses the same equipment as most of its other allies it's called "Standardization". I personally think that the M-16/AR weapons system is very capable otherwise it wouldn't have survived this long (40 years), but there are lots of reasons that nations choose certain weapons over others.
For an example look at the United Kingdom. For almost a hundred years whenever they get into a conflict with another nation they've been forced to obtain weapons, ammo, equipment, aircraft and vehicles from the US as they didn't have enough of their own. During WWI American citizens were donating firearms to help the Brits out. Then when WWII popped off, the same thing happened and they were forced to look to the US for weapons and ammo. The British Home Guard had their regular issue firearms taken away to arm the regular British Army after the regular forces lost their weapons at Dunkirk. The HG patrolled the coast with a motley collection of whatever they could get that shot a bullet as their only stipulation for use and which were donated by American Hunters and Firearms Owners.
Since Israel is dependent on the US to a certain degree because of how much military aid that we give them every year it's a smart move for them to use the same equipment that the US Armed Forces use. The US wouldn't use it if it didn't work to begin with, but I'll bet that US military aid and emergency resupply figured in there somewhere.
Greetings all. Just got thru reading thru all the postings.
Please allow me to clear up this thread a bit. This info comes directly from the IDF SF's own website: http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm
A common debate in the small arms world is the M16 Vs. AK47 issue - which one is the better assault rifle. As probably the only western army in the world that have used both an AK47 variant (IMI Galil) and the M16 on a large scale, the IDF is often mentioned as a real life example.
The pro M16 claim is that the IDF usage of the M16 is a clear evidence of the weapon's quality, while the pro AK47 claim that the only reason the IDF switched from IMI Galil to the M16 is since it received them for free from the U.S. The truth is that the M16 is by far the superior weapon. It's lighter, more accurate, more versatile, and with proper maintenance it is very reliable. Indeed, it might be less sand proof then the Galil/AK47 series. However, all you need is to clean it once a day and it will work properly. Since modern armies clean their small arms on a daily basis even during combat deployment this is a non-issue.
In fact, most of the myth regarding the M16 unreliability date back to the Vietnam War when the M16 was first issued. The 5.56 mm ammunition used at the time was based on a low quality sticky gunpowder that caused massive buildup of dirt in the M16 mechanism and eventually to jamming problems. When the ammunition was replaced with a proper one, the misfire problems disappeared as well.
One the other hand, the IMI Galil is heavy, inaccurate and it is difficult to attach optics and other accessories to it without special adapters. Many people also don't like the Galil/AK safety mechanism but that's a personnel preference issue. The M16 design, however, is very user friendly and allow numerous modifications to be made such as interchangeability between the different M16 families. The large number of M16 variants used by the IDF for decades of continuous combat deployment is a clear evidence of that.
The reason for the IDF usage of the M16 over the Galil isn't the cost. It's the pure quality of the M16 over the Galil. Most of IDF troops dislike the Galil and will prefer a CAR15/M4 over it. Those who are using the cost factor are simply unfamiliar with the IDF assault rifles history. Short review - up until the mid 1970's the IDF standard issue assault rifle was the FN FAL. At that time most of the Israeli elite units were using the AK47, which was considered as better then the FAL. During the Israeli-Arab Yom Kippur War in 1973 the U.S. made a massive airlift to Israel containing large numbers of brand new M16A1 and CAR15. However, shortly after the war ended the IDF had adopted the IMI Galil as its new standard issue assault rifle so most of the M16 remained in storage.
The Galil wasn't a big success to say the least. Most of the IDF elite units weren't impressed with the new weapon and remained with the AK47, which also was also useful for deniability in covert deep insertions. In the late 1970's, a few SF units tried out the CAR15 and were tremendously impressed. A decade later, by the late 1980's, almost all elite units were already armed with CAR15, which was gradually replacing the IMI Galil SAR and the AK47. Note that this was years before the IDF had officially adopted the M16 in the early 1990's. The IDF SF units that adopted the CAR15 didn't have any cost issue at mind. They could have used either the M16 or the Galil. It made no matter budget wise, since both weapons were already available in masses. The decision was purely quality based, and no one told the units which weapon to use. More clearly - in some IDF elite units the Galil was simply never used and they always preferred the CAR15 over it. Following the influence of the SF units, in the early 1990's the IDF had officially adopted the M16 family as its new standard issue assault rifle for all infantry oriented units, including both SF and conventional units. Today, the IMI Galil is mainly used by auxiliary and rear line units.
Lets again review the situation in the early 1990's. The IDF had large sums of Galil variants it procured over the years, and it also had large sums of M16 it received in the 1973 war as well as via U.S. Army surpluses shipments over the years. Both weapons were available in masses and there wasn't any current or near future need to procure either weapon. The IDF also had thousands of AK47 that were captured over the years. So the IDF could use the AK47 free of charge over M16 or Galil.
Eventually, the IDF chose the M16, so again cost wasn't really an issue. Further more, even if there was such a cost factor, then the IDF could have simply supply all rear line troops with the cheaper M16 and issue the more expensive Galil to the front line troops. The fact that the exact opposite was done speaks for itself. Moreover, some times the cost is less of an issue. The IDF often buy expensive Israeli weapons. For example, the Israeli Police bought the Jericho 941 handguns, while the IDF managed to get the better Sig Sauer 228/226. The Israeli M240 Sufa ("Storm" in Hebrew) jeep is yet another example. The fact that despite the domestic pressure the M16 was chosen over the Galil is yet another evident of its superiority.
Let's review the situation today. The IDF no longer receives M16 for free. Instead, Israel receives from the U.S. few billion dollars per year of FMS. However, the catch is that most of this money must be spent in Dollars back in the U.S. The M4 series is indeed cheaper then the Galil or even the new Tavor series. In order to buy gear and weapons using the U.S. FMS the item must be at least 50% made in the U.S. This is why the IMI is currently looking for ways to manufacture the Tavor in the U.S. - so that the IDF could buy the Tavor using FMS.
To summarize, the IDF chose the M16 over the AK47/Gail because the M16 is the better assault rifle in all parameters that matter. As for reliability, the M16 is reliable enough. As for cost it's a non issue. Modern small arms are relatively cheap. In fact, for modern armies who buy large sums, most optical sights cost much more then assault rifles per unit.
http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm
Please allow me to clear up this thread a bit. This info comes directly from the IDF SF's own website: http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm
A common debate in the small arms world is the M16 Vs. AK47 issue - which one is the better assault rifle. As probably the only western army in the world that have used both an AK47 variant (IMI Galil) and the M16 on a large scale, the IDF is often mentioned as a real life example.
The pro M16 claim is that the IDF usage of the M16 is a clear evidence of the weapon's quality, while the pro AK47 claim that the only reason the IDF switched from IMI Galil to the M16 is since it received them for free from the U.S. The truth is that the M16 is by far the superior weapon. It's lighter, more accurate, more versatile, and with proper maintenance it is very reliable. Indeed, it might be less sand proof then the Galil/AK47 series. However, all you need is to clean it once a day and it will work properly. Since modern armies clean their small arms on a daily basis even during combat deployment this is a non-issue.
In fact, most of the myth regarding the M16 unreliability date back to the Vietnam War when the M16 was first issued. The 5.56 mm ammunition used at the time was based on a low quality sticky gunpowder that caused massive buildup of dirt in the M16 mechanism and eventually to jamming problems. When the ammunition was replaced with a proper one, the misfire problems disappeared as well.
One the other hand, the IMI Galil is heavy, inaccurate and it is difficult to attach optics and other accessories to it without special adapters. Many people also don't like the Galil/AK safety mechanism but that's a personnel preference issue. The M16 design, however, is very user friendly and allow numerous modifications to be made such as interchangeability between the different M16 families. The large number of M16 variants used by the IDF for decades of continuous combat deployment is a clear evidence of that.
The reason for the IDF usage of the M16 over the Galil isn't the cost. It's the pure quality of the M16 over the Galil. Most of IDF troops dislike the Galil and will prefer a CAR15/M4 over it. Those who are using the cost factor are simply unfamiliar with the IDF assault rifles history. Short review - up until the mid 1970's the IDF standard issue assault rifle was the FN FAL. At that time most of the Israeli elite units were using the AK47, which was considered as better then the FAL. During the Israeli-Arab Yom Kippur War in 1973 the U.S. made a massive airlift to Israel containing large numbers of brand new M16A1 and CAR15. However, shortly after the war ended the IDF had adopted the IMI Galil as its new standard issue assault rifle so most of the M16 remained in storage.
The Galil wasn't a big success to say the least. Most of the IDF elite units weren't impressed with the new weapon and remained with the AK47, which also was also useful for deniability in covert deep insertions. In the late 1970's, a few SF units tried out the CAR15 and were tremendously impressed. A decade later, by the late 1980's, almost all elite units were already armed with CAR15, which was gradually replacing the IMI Galil SAR and the AK47. Note that this was years before the IDF had officially adopted the M16 in the early 1990's. The IDF SF units that adopted the CAR15 didn't have any cost issue at mind. They could have used either the M16 or the Galil. It made no matter budget wise, since both weapons were already available in masses. The decision was purely quality based, and no one told the units which weapon to use. More clearly - in some IDF elite units the Galil was simply never used and they always preferred the CAR15 over it. Following the influence of the SF units, in the early 1990's the IDF had officially adopted the M16 family as its new standard issue assault rifle for all infantry oriented units, including both SF and conventional units. Today, the IMI Galil is mainly used by auxiliary and rear line units.
Lets again review the situation in the early 1990's. The IDF had large sums of Galil variants it procured over the years, and it also had large sums of M16 it received in the 1973 war as well as via U.S. Army surpluses shipments over the years. Both weapons were available in masses and there wasn't any current or near future need to procure either weapon. The IDF also had thousands of AK47 that were captured over the years. So the IDF could use the AK47 free of charge over M16 or Galil.
Eventually, the IDF chose the M16, so again cost wasn't really an issue. Further more, even if there was such a cost factor, then the IDF could have simply supply all rear line troops with the cheaper M16 and issue the more expensive Galil to the front line troops. The fact that the exact opposite was done speaks for itself. Moreover, some times the cost is less of an issue. The IDF often buy expensive Israeli weapons. For example, the Israeli Police bought the Jericho 941 handguns, while the IDF managed to get the better Sig Sauer 228/226. The Israeli M240 Sufa ("Storm" in Hebrew) jeep is yet another example. The fact that despite the domestic pressure the M16 was chosen over the Galil is yet another evident of its superiority.
Let's review the situation today. The IDF no longer receives M16 for free. Instead, Israel receives from the U.S. few billion dollars per year of FMS. However, the catch is that most of this money must be spent in Dollars back in the U.S. The M4 series is indeed cheaper then the Galil or even the new Tavor series. In order to buy gear and weapons using the U.S. FMS the item must be at least 50% made in the U.S. This is why the IMI is currently looking for ways to manufacture the Tavor in the U.S. - so that the IDF could buy the Tavor using FMS.
To summarize, the IDF chose the M16 over the AK47/Gail because the M16 is the better assault rifle in all parameters that matter. As for reliability, the M16 is reliable enough. As for cost it's a non issue. Modern small arms are relatively cheap. In fact, for modern armies who buy large sums, most optical sights cost much more then assault rifles per unit.
http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm
Well, interesting post. That pretty much kills the cost theory for tha Galil.
I have to say I like the Galil over the AK in terms of design, despite thae fact that mine has proven unrealiable (I blame Century, not the design). It is heavier that the M16 - a full tricked out M16 with rail system and a small optic weighs about the same as a basic Galil. Ergonomics on the Galil are very good compared to the AK. Accuracy is outstanding.
Now if someone could being a modified Galil that used M16 magazines, it would be the perfect 223 AK for the American market - although Galil mags are widely available. It also needs an Ultimak like rail.
All that said, the M16 family is a superior weapons system in terms of accuracy and flexibility - a feature some don't get. With a flat top receiver and rail system almost any gadget required can be easily added. It is perfect for optics mounting. It's fairly simple to reconfigure with different stocks, etc. A barrel change can be done with a simple tool by anyone with reasonable appitude.
What's not to like?
I have to say I like the Galil over the AK in terms of design, despite thae fact that mine has proven unrealiable (I blame Century, not the design). It is heavier that the M16 - a full tricked out M16 with rail system and a small optic weighs about the same as a basic Galil. Ergonomics on the Galil are very good compared to the AK. Accuracy is outstanding.
Now if someone could being a modified Galil that used M16 magazines, it would be the perfect 223 AK for the American market - although Galil mags are widely available. It also needs an Ultimak like rail.
All that said, the M16 family is a superior weapons system in terms of accuracy and flexibility - a feature some don't get. With a flat top receiver and rail system almost any gadget required can be easily added. It is perfect for optics mounting. It's fairly simple to reconfigure with different stocks, etc. A barrel change can be done with a simple tool by anyone with reasonable appitude.
What's not to like?
El Tejon
Member
What's not to like? Well, we are familiar with it, thus the M16 cannot be cool and I gots Iwannacoolgun virus bad. Cool guns win wars.
I think Coldecker told it pretty well. I seem to remember back when Galils were current there was some problem with them shearing locking surfaces.
I have a Valmet 71 which is a sheet metal AK that the Galil was derived from. Nice curio, but still an AK with all its warts.
I have a Valmet 71 which is a sheet metal AK that the Galil was derived from. Nice curio, but still an AK with all its warts.
Yes guys, you can now use this as a show-piece to all the Pro-AK honks out there (referring to my post a few hours ago). Once they learn how fast the IDF (Quite possibly the most Elite Force on the Planet) discarded their AK's (or Galil's) in favor of the M16, their continued high praise of the Kalashnikov should come to a screeching halt.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I have always liked the AK design for reasons other than who uses it, actually. People who evaluate various guns by the "kewlness" of those perceived to be using the platform are unlikely to be AK fanboys, considering that 1st SFOD-D/CAG uses the M16/M4, and they trump the IDF on the Kewlness index.
I have no experience with the Galil (looks like a nice system, though), but IMHO the AKM design can stand on its own merits, particularly for civilian shooters looking for a good all-purpose rifle.
nalioth
Member
I believe all our special ops boys have moved to gas piston equipped AR type rifles, which aren't the same critter at all next to a direct impingement AR.benEzra said:
nalioth said:
Certain special ops units have acquired the HK 416, but that is a far cry from it being universally adopted by all of the Special Forces community. The Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG) and some Delta units have been reported to use the 416, but the extent of its use even within those units is not clear.
Well, the Galil looks scarier. Like an AK variant, it is the weapon of the Bear andnastuy terrorists everywhere. Anything that makes Diane Feinstein pee in her pants is good in my book.
My goto rifle is a tricked out M1A. I have an M4 forgery that get a lot of use. If and when I get my Century Galil to function, it will be a fun blaster. It will also be a superior club compared to the M4/M16 should you run out of ammo.
Personally, my mission is to 'collect them all' (assasult rifles) before the Dems take the white house in 2009. I anticipate a permanent assasult rifle ban in the first hundred days.
Get them while you can.
My goto rifle is a tricked out M1A. I have an M4 forgery that get a lot of use. If and when I get my Century Galil to function, it will be a fun blaster. It will also be a superior club compared to the M4/M16 should you run out of ammo.
Personally, my mission is to 'collect them all' (assasult rifles) before the Dems take the white house in 2009. I anticipate a permanent assasult rifle ban in the first hundred days.
Get them while you can.
HorseSoldier
Member
Does the Assymetric Warfare Group even count as a SOF unit?
Anyway, use of HK 416s is more widespread than just CAG and We-Play-Like-We're-CAG-Lite within the special operations community, but it is certainly by no means universal, and there are definitely still a whole lot more M4A1s out there than HK 416s. With SCAR-L supposed to be on the way, I doubt the 416 ever approaches universal issue.
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