The grip

[Onward Allusion]

It's a grip style from a decade or two ago. That's one of the reasons why there are square serrated trigger guard for the 5906 - a place to rest your weak hand index finger. Personally, I think griping style is overrated. Heck, if you can throw 5 rounds of lead 50 yards downrange in 5 seconds hitting a pie plate shooting sideways G_D Bless ya!

 

[EvilGenius]

I'm not sure if you are mis-understanding or if you are mixing terms

Yeah, I think we're getting lost here. I'll try to explain better.

What do you mean by trigger work?
Is that referring to tuning the trigger or your pressing the trigger?

I mean by pressing it. The trigger on this gun is plenty smooth and crisp enough.

What do you mean by controlling the recoil?
Are you talking about your grip, the force vectors you are applying or your stance?

I'm specifically talking about my grip, however I wont rule out my stance as a factor. I just put controlling in quotes because I didn't want to imply that I was fighting the recoil.

What do you mean by follow through?

A normal example of follow through would be like swinging a baseball bat. To get the best swing you "follow through", you don't just stop swinging the bat as soon as you make contact. In this case, I'm referring to how/what my trigger finger and strong hand are doing when and after the trigger breaks. I don't feel as though I'm jerking the shot because when I practice dry firing I don't flinch and the sights don't move when and after the trigger breaks. I feel as if my accuracy issues are stemming from how I absorb the recoil.

I think it would be safe to say that shooting 6"-8" groups at 10 yards is caused by multiple issues. *The main issue will always be trigger control...pressing the trigger smoothly and continuously straight to the rear.

To the best of my knowledge this is what I am doing.

In my experience, the 1911 platform's short trigger press, has contributed to more jerked shots than most other actions

I have that problem with double actions and striker fired guns. The pull is long(er) and on a lot of the ones I've shot, it was nearly impossible to tell where when the trigger was going to break. So the gun would inevitably squirm in my hand slightly because the break point would end up further back than I could tell.

 

[ATLDave]

I don't feel as though I'm jerking the shot because when I practice dry firing I don't flinch and the sights don't move when and after the trigger breaks. I feel as if my accuracy issues are stemming from how I absorb the recoil.

That sounds like a flinch to me. Take it from a flincher! The amount of recoil in the gun between the time it begins to move and the bullet exits the barrel is both very small and essentially non-variable for a given pistol and load. You could grip it 20 different ways, and the bullet would be gone before your interaction with the recoil changed where the barrel is pointing.

To put it another way, it's not how you're "absorbing" the recoil. It's how you're ANTICIPATING the recoil. Which is why there's no movement when you dryfire... you know the gun isn't going to go off, so there's nothing to anticipate except a small click.

If you doubt it, have a friend load a mix of live rounds and dummy rounds/snapcaps into a magazine. Watch how much you move the gun on the dummy rounds.

Also, when you fire, do you see the muzzle flash? Do you see the brass eject? Do you see the sights jump up as the gun goes off? Unless you're seeing those things somewhere between most and all of the time, you're flinching and closing your eyes.

 

[EvilGenius]

That sounds like a flinch to me. Take it from a flincher! The amount of recoil in the gun between the time it begins to move and the bullet exits the barrel is both very small and essentially non-variable for a given pistol and load. You could grip it 20 different ways, and the bullet would be gone before your interaction with the recoil changed where the barrel is pointing.

To put it another way, it's not how you're "absorbing" the recoil. It's how you're ANTICIPATING the recoil. Which is why there's no movement when you dryfire... you know the gun isn't going to go off, so there's nothing to anticipate except a small click.

If you doubt it, have a friend load a mix of live rounds and dummy rounds/snapcaps into a magazine. Watch how much you move the gun on the dummy rounds.

Also, when you fire, do you see the muzzle flash? Do you see the brass eject? Do you see the sights jump up as the gun goes off? Unless you're seeing those things somewhere between most and all of the time, you're flinching and closing your eyes.

Ah, good point. I didn't think about it that way.

To answer your question I do see those things though.

 

[ATLDave]

To answer your question I do see those things though.

That's good. What happens to your groups when you shoot a .22?

 

[EvilGenius]

That's good. What happens to your groups when you shoot a .22?

I do have a marvel precision conversion kit that swaps out the slide so I can shoot the same gun.

The groups usually get smaller, but there's also a lot of fliers as well. It could be me or the fact that I just feed cheap bulk .22lr through it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I mean by pressing it. The trigger on this gun is plenty smooth and crisp enough.

...I feel as if my accuracy issues are stemming from how I absorb the recoil.

Pressing the trigger is the root, other than not aligning the sights correctly, of all handgun accuracy...given a properly functioning/assembled pistol.

How you absorb recoil has little affect on your accuracy, the recoil occurs after you've correctly pressed the trigger. That is why I don't much care if a new shooter is closing their eyes after the shot.

(1) I don't feel as though I'm jerking the shot because when I practice dry firing I don't flinch and the sights don't move when and after the trigger breaks.

(2) To the best of my knowledge this is what I am doing.

(3) I have that problem with double actions and striker fired guns. The pull is long(er) and on a lot of the ones I've shot, it was nearly impossible to tell where when the trigger was going to break.

#3 in the above cites, is in conflict with #1 and #2

When shooting for accuracy, which is what you should be able to do before trying to shoot faster, wanting to know when the trigger is going to break is an almost sure sign that you are jerking the trigger.

You're trying to make the shot go off when the sights are aligned on the target, what you should be trying to do continue pressing the trigger smoothly when the sights are aligned on the target

To answer your question I do see those things though.

The groups usually get smaller, but there's also a lot of fliers as well.

Besides the trigger, I'd suspect you're putting uneven pressure on the gun with your grip

What are your thumbs doing as you press the trigger?
Do you usually think of your trigger actuation as squeezing the trigger?
Are you shooting thumbs forward or thumbs up?

Just for you, I went to a 1911 pattern pistol for these pictures:
Thumbs Up...but pointed forward

Thumbs forward

 

[EvilGenius]

#3 in the above cites, is in conflict with #1 and #2*

I'll try to explain, but it's hard to without pictures. If you have your index finger pointed straight with a spring wrapped around it trying to pull it straight then curled it all the way in. There would be a point where your finger has the most mechanical advantage to pull straight back. When I grip the trigger, I try to grip it so that at the breaking point I'm in the area that has the most advantage to pull it straight back smoothly. I've had success with this with the 1911 because there's almost no creep. But on the DA and the striker fired ones, gripping the same way would have it break behind that zone and I'd end up torquing the sights out of alignment.

That being said, it's probably irrelevant because of your cite below.

When shooting for accuracy, which is what you should be able to do before trying to shoot faster, wanting to know when the trigger is going to break is an almost sure sign that you are jerking the trigger.

You're trying to make the shot go off when the sights are aligned on the target, what you should be trying to do continue pressing the trigger smoothly when the sights are aligned on the target

This.

On the DAs I'm guilty of trying to stage the trigger so when I'm ready to fire I only have to squeeze slightly. On the 1911 I don't have to, just squeeze.

To be clear, what you are saying is I need to practice so that conceivably I can grab any pistol, get a good grip and squeeze from the moment I touch it all the way to the stop at the rear without the sights ever moving off target (or at all)?

Edit: Hey! It's referenced in your sig!

Besides the trigger, I'd suspect you're putting uneven pressure on the gun with your grip

What are your thumbs doing as you press the trigger?
Do you usually think of your trigger actuation as squeezing the trigger?
Are you shooting thumbs forward or thumbs up?

Just for you, I went to a 1911 pattern pistol for these pictures:
Thumbs Up...but pointed forward

Thumbs forward

More like the top one, except my left thumb is more up ontop of the right thumb.

I tried doing the thumbs forward grip like you're showing and it feels strange but does feel like I have more control. The tough part will be gripping stronger with the weak hand, it feels unnatural, but not bad.

 

[9mmepiphany]

But on the DA and the striker fired ones, gripping the same way would have it break behind that zone and I'd end up torquing the sights out of alignment.

Is you trigger finger in contact with the frame/grip panel of the pistol?
The middle knuckle should be on the same plane, perpendicular to the bore, as the point, in the trigger travel, when the shot breaks. When my finger is on the face of the trigger, the rest of my trigger finger isn't in contact with the pistol.

On the DAs I'm guilty of trying to stage the trigger so when I'm ready to fire I only have to squeeze slightly. On the 1911 I don't have to, just squeeze.

Staging a DA trigger is another sure way to get a jerked shot

To be clear, what you are saying is I need to practice so that conceivably I can grab any pistol, get a good grip and squeeze from the moment I touch it all the way to the stop at the rear without the sights ever moving off target (or at all)?

Not quite. The sights move all the time. There is even a term for it...wobble zone or cone of wobble

More like the top one, except my left thumb is more up ontop of the right thumb.

On a 1911

That would mean that you would be putting both atop the thumb safety. That would account for some of your thrown shots as it really compromises your grip

I tried doing the thumbs forward grip like you're showing and it feels strange but does feel like I have more control. The tough part will be gripping stronger with the weak hand, it feels unnatural, but not bad.

This...and your earlier reference to squeezing the trigger, leads me to suspect that you're not detaching the motion of your trigger finger from the three lower gripping fingers. Also that you're applying pressure with your thumb(s)

This would be a easy fix, if I could see you shoot, make immediate corrections and watch as you implement them. It is much more difficult over the internet...that is why I usually recommend formal instruction.

 

[EvilGenius]

Is you trigger finger in contact with the frame/grip panel of the pistol?

Yes, a little bit between the palm knuckle and first knuckle.

The middle knuckle should be on the same plane, perpendicular to the bore, as the point, in the trigger travel, when the shot breaks. When my finger is on the face of the trigger, the rest of my trigger finger isn't in contact with the pistol.

Ok, got it. Id been given tips on where the pad of your finger should rest on the trigger, but not anything about the rest of the finger.

Not quite. The sights move all the time. There is even a term for it...wobble zone or cone of wobble

So then you want it to be a smooth pull all the way through, but you want to time it so that the sights line up with the target at the break point?

On a 1911

That would mean that you would be putting both atop the thumb safety. That would account for some of your thrown shots as it really compromises your grip

No quite like that, I meant as in my right thumb would be pinched in between the left thumb and left side of the gun.

This...and your earlier reference to squeezing the trigger, leads me to suspect that you're not detaching the motion of your trigger finger from the three lower gripping fingers. Also that you're applying pressure with your thumb(s)

Ah, I apply some of my grip pressure with my thumbs but not much. SHould they just be resting in place?

This would be a easy fix, if I could see you shoot, make immediate corrections and watch as you implement them. It is much more difficult over the internet...that is why I usually recommend formal instruction.

I agree completely, at least so much wouldn't get lost in translation. Thanks for helping out though!

 

[9mmepiphany]

So then you want it to be a smooth pull all the way through, but you want to time it so that the sights line up with the target at the break point?

As long as your sights are aligned with each other and they are on the target, you'll hit. There are more advanced techniques to shrink your wobble zone when shooting quickly, but you have to have the trigger control down first.

Ah, I apply some of my grip pressure with my thumbs but not much. SHould they just be resting in place?

Resting is good, relaxed is important...when in doubt, I ask clients to float them. If you are applying pressure with your thumb, you're increasing the pressure of your gripping fingers and pulling your shots low

Next time, try the thumbs forward and straighten out your arms for an Isosceles hold. Flare out your trigger finger and relax your thumbs

 

[EvilGenius]

As long as your sights are aligned with each other and they are on the target, you'll hit. There are more advanced techniques to shrink your wobble zone when shooting quickly, but you have to have the trigger control down first.


Resting is good, relaxed is important...when in doubt, I ask clients to float them. If you are applying pressure with your thumb, you're increasing the pressure of your gripping fingers and pulling your shots low

Next time, try the thumbs forward and straighten out your arms for an Isosceles hold. Flare out your trigger finger and relax your thumbs

Got it, thanks!

 

[TarDevil]

Oh, yeah!!

New grip, new stance, better trigger control = some really sweet groups! (Sorry... didn't even think about taking pics ).

Thanks for all the suggestions and input!

 

[EvilGenius]

Alright, hit up the range this weekend and put about 120rds down range and about 100 with the .22 conversion.

The .22 groups tightened up considerably and I wish I'd brought more rounds since I was close to getting it dialed in to dropping all of them in the 1.5" bullseye at 10yds. Which is great for me, before my groups at that distance were on the order of 6"-8", worse than the .45acp.

Now for the .45. My groups tightened up a fair amount, but I definitely have an inconsistent flinch. Sometimes it's real bad, sometimes it's not there at all. I suspect it may be fatigue based as it seemed to get worse towards the end. My groups (without the fliers from the flinch) were about 3"-4", about 2"-3" smaller than before. But they're all about 2" left of the bullseye and about .5" low. Maybe I'm squeezing a little too much with the support hand? Or maybe the strong hand?

One thing for sure, I need to slow down. I don't know what it is, but I subconsciously get into a rush and fire about once per second, my sights don't wander much, but I feel like it amplifies the flinch.

Definitely excited to practice more.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My groups tightened up a fair amount, but I definitely have an inconsistent flinch

That is an anticipation jerk...you're too invested in making a good shot...it is all in your mind

Try this:

Print up a series on 1" squares on a normal sheet of paper...in 4 rows down and 3 squares per row. Set them at 5-7 yards and shoot one shot at each square.

I'd suggest shooting 1 row (3 squares) without looking where your shots are hitting and without changing your sight alignment, grip or trigger press...you can shoot them all SA or all DA (it doesn't matter). The important thing is not looking at your hits between shots.

Post a picture of your sheet with notations of any changes you made between rows (strings of 3 shots)

 

[EvilGenius]

That is an anticipation jerk...you're too invested in making a good shot...it is all in your mind

Try this:

Print up a series on 1" squares on a normal sheet of paper...in 4 rows down and 3 squares per row. Set them at 5-7 yards and shoot one shot at each square.

I'd suggest shooting 1 row (3 squares) without looking where your shots are hitting and without changing your sight alignment, grip or trigger press...you can shoot them all SA or all DA (it doesn't matter). The important thing is not looking at your hits between shots.

Post a picture of your sheet with notations of any changes you made between rows (strings of 3 shots)

Got it.

Will do.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Here's a video that I did talking about grip. It might shed some light on some things.

Tweaking the Grip

 

[xXxplosive]

Direct and to the point...........thanks.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Thank you Paul.

That is the same evolution that my gripping style took and is what I teach as well

 

[Blackstone]

Nice video Paul, I'll give that grip a go next time I'm at the range

 

[JRH6856]

The rolled forward, locked wrist grip in Paul's video just doesn't work for me with my 1911 or BHP. When I roll my offhand forward, the heel of my hand does not fit properly in the space between the fingertips and heel of my strong hand unless I roll my strong hand forward as well and then the muzzle is pointing low.

It feels right and works great with my Ruger Standard .22 which has a sharper grip angle than the 1911. It seems to me this grip would be perfect if I were shooting a Glock which it appears Paul is shooting in the video.

Just some casual observations. Since I don't have a Glock, I'll check them out the next time I' can rent one at the range.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So you're shooting more like this

...than this

...there is plenty of room there

 

[JRH6856]

First pic looks more like it.

And yes, it looks like plenty of room but it just doesn't "fit" right. I'm going to the range Monday. Gives me something to work on.

 

[Chasbo00]

Here's a free video on grip that's pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrA7wMXuuQ

 

[9mmepiphany]

Yup, good demonstration of what my pictures are showing.

I liked his comment, "I've never measured it, I just made it up"...talking about grip pressure