The gun nut and depression

[Well-Armed Lamb]

So, the Brady Campaign's newest tack is the "so many suicides would be prevented if we banned guns" thing. Obviously, because people never kill themselves with things other than guns. :banghead: But it does propose an interesting question. Depression is extraordinarily common; how do those of us who love guns deal with it, when it happens?

I suffer from intermittent depression -- it's not exactly clinical, in the sense that I get relief for years at a time, but when bad stuff happens in my life I can get pretty hung up on it and need some professional help to get better. I've had two of those since I became a gun owner, the first early on and the second -- er, well, now, actually. This one is better than the last, because it comes and goes; I'm not solidly miserable all the time, and I know the warning signs well enough now that I was able to jump on it early. But it's gotten me thinking about how gun aficionados do handle serious depression, among themselves or with regard to close friends who are also in the gun culture. If one of us becomes seriously suicidal, we don't have to put on a mask of composure to go to the gun store; we've got an ample selection in the safe. (Heck, with gun nuts, that could be a life-saver right there: you start debating caliber, make, and model -- favorite gun? or beater you don't mind the cops losing afterwards? -- and the next thing you know, you're feeling slightly more chipper and head off to the range.)

I remember that a couple of store owners here have commented about obviously distressed people who tried to buy firearms, and how they handled that situation. What do you do, though, if you or somebody you know starts to show signs of serious depression? If it's you, do you make a change in how you keep/store your guns, or how often you go shooting? Do you make other changes in your circumstances?

I've been thinking about this, oddly enough, because I haven't had to. I rent, so I keep my gun safe at a friend's house, where nobody will get mad if it's bolted to the floor. Lately, I've been doing lots of business travel, so I was just keeping all of my guns over there anyway, in case somebody broke into my place while I was away. The last time I was in a bad place, I only had one gun, and I just kept it in a drawer. Curiously, though I was depressed enough to think about dying, I was never once tempted to actually use it for that purpose, and the idea actually inspired a twinge of revulsion. Maybe it was the difference between the abstract and the concrete. Maybe, even then, I didn't want to give the Bradys a talking point.

And here's the stumper: it's one thing to talk about what you'd do. What if it's not happening to you, but to somebody you know? Anybody have to deal with a situation like that?

 

[Apple a Day]

Yep. Family. In one case I walked in and took the guns. In another case I talked the person out of getting a gun.
If there's love and trust between you and you're sincere then you should be able to convince them. Remember, though, that everyone is responsible for their own actions so there's only so much you can do.
As for suicide: I remember reading a study for the year 2000 and the U.S.A. ranked 8th in suicide rate... behind the major gun control countries like England and Canada. #1 was Japan. It's a cultural thing, not a gun issue.

 

[NukemJim]

Years ago when breaking up with my fiance (thank goodness it was before tha marriage, otherwise I would have had to pay a laywer for a divorce) I was not doing so good so I took all my firearms to my BIL's house for a while. When things stabilized I took them back.

NukemJim

 

[MachIVshooter]

Two points:

One, people don't need a firearm to commit suicide. A car and a garden hose, or a length of rope will work just fine.

Two, anyone who is serious enough about it to actually follow through is going to keep those emotions well concealed. You won't know until it's too late.

I would say the best course of action if you have a friend or loved one that you believe to be suicidal is to offer them unconditional support and love. Don't try to take away the tools they might use to accomplish the task. Think about it in the context you set forth with the suicidal individual being a gun nut. The person is already upset enough to want to die, do you think taking away (or taking them away from) one of the things that makes them happy will help the situation?

 

[Walkalong]

People who end up committing suicide would have found a way, wether they had access to a gun or not. Razor blades, buildings, etc. It is a sad thing, but it happens.

Getting help is the answer, not trying to rid the world of all danger, it cannot be done.

No matter how down I get, or how mad I get, I never think of using a gun to "fix" it. That would be stupid.

 

[buckeye8]

I spent some time in Britain, and trust me, those people deal with depression and suicide on a level that most of us would find shocking. Even in small towns, it seems like people, especially young people, kill themselves left and right. One thing's for certain... it ain't the guns.

 

[ambidextrous1]

I was affected with lethargy (and consequent depression) following heart surgery less than a year ago; didn't recognize depression until a friend "diagnosed" my symptoms.

I told my doc about it and he prescribed Lexapro: no improvement, very expensive, side effects can nclude suicidal tendencies. I threw away the Lexapro after a month & started taking Vitamin B12 on the advice of another friend. It's been a big help, and I'm much more active; should be back to 100% early in 2009.

Anyone suffering from depression should get a doc involved; but avoid Lexapro, and be sure to read the cautionary notice that (by law) accompanies every prescription; read "possible side effects" carefully, and discuss them with your doc!

Good health to all.

 

[JoeFish]

I don't know if this is relevant to what you're asking, but I do suffer from depression occasionally. I have a stressful job that is freelance, which is great because it allows me to spend a lot of time on the trail, but when work is down- like now- it can get pretty rough, because of the whole I'm-only-as-good-as-my-last-gig syndrome. But even though in these times I occasionally think about suicide, it never occurs to me to get a gun, even though there's a loaded .357 a foot from my bed.

I think for me it's only about the 'what-if.'

What a personal and challening post. Way to go.

 

[moi_self26]

Luckily, I have never had that problem.....but I know that if I ever did, the guilt of leaving my family and my conservative nature and disdain for liberals would be enough motivation for me not to become one of their talking point statistics.

 

[robsc]

I`m deleting my previous response and asking this>>>>>>

I want to know who you are and why do you want gun owners with depression to discuss their depression with you on this forum? I am agreeing with some others on this forum who don`t like being asked ` how many guns do I have , what guns do I have , post pictures of my guns, post pictures of my gun safe interior and gun room, what is my mental condition,, and other personal information of that nature. Do you visit gun shows with a camera and take pictures of items on display there?

 

[Just Jim]

Depression is, imho, a loss of direction. A point where you can't see a reason to keep going in the same direction because it isn't working out for you. You don't know where to turn.

To stay out of depression one has to build their life on a firm foundation that gives one a chance to fall back on when times get ugly.

I have read that there is a new state of depression suffered by most everyone in the USA, it's called POS. Post Obama Syndrome and it comes from people voting for change and they got the same extreemist gun grabbers of the Clinton administration being appointed by BHO to his government.

Now that is depression:banghead::banghead:

jj

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Just out of curiosity don't the anti's support euthanasia?

 

[WardenWolf]

There's a big difference, in my experience, between wanting to die and being suicidal. Many people want to die at one point or another, but most people will never actually kill themselves. Many people will think about death and suicide, but without actually being suicidal. Depression innately brings thoughts of death, but it normally takes a big jump to extend that to action.

It's a big distinction, but one that is very important. It is also hard for other people to understand, or to determine which stage a person is at. Because of this, there is a knee-jerk reaction to depression from people not in the know. They think that if a person is depressed that he's automatically a danger to himself, and may take actions or say things that will actually make it worse instead of helping. The number one fear of any depressed person is to be hauled off involuntarily and lose whatever they're still hanging on to, and anything that even hints at that can push them further down the slope.

I suffered from severe depression for 3 years. Despite being successfully treated with medication and eventually withdrawing from it after 2 years, I still suffer the occasional bout. It usually lasts no more than 24 hours, and more often than not it is tied to lack of sleep or an unstable sleep schedule. Depression is seratonin-related, and you produce seratonin when you sleep. If you are prone to depression, you MUST stay on a stable sleep schedule. Getting enough sleep at night is the only way to keep it in check, and napping during the day only makes it worse if you don't normally nap. When you are suffering the occasional bout, you should make it a point to get extra sleep at night.

 

[conw]

JoeFish wrote:

What a personal and challening post. Way to go.

+1 to that.



Now, personally, I can answer this - but I don't know that the answer will be very helpful to anyone, since it is a very personal type of issue.

I had some substance abuse issues in my teens and got those taken care of on my own, got with this girl, and then after two years we broke up. I was pretty much OK but decided to start attending some 12-step meetings.

One of the main points in 12-step doctrines is that you must "accept that you're powerless" over whatever your problem was. Then a lot of people, myself included, extrapolate that you are powerless over LOTS of things in your life, i.e. unable to make proper decisions on your own particularly if you're isolated emotionally or socially for any amount of time.

Now, I'm not trying to debate the efficacy of 12-step, but it isn't for me. I stopped going and I'm still clean and don't care for the program. But my point here is that at one point and another, I would eye my gun and think to myself, "What would happen if I couldn't control myself, and I decided to kill myself?" - which all stemmed from the idea that I was powerless over the course of my life, which I now know I'm not (particularly not when armed ).

I basically attended therapy to de-indoctrinate myself of the 12-step stuff and I've been better since. I don't think I would "lose control" any more - I never have, and don't have any reason to think I ever will. Oh, and not to sound callous - this is really the honest truth - but seeing pics of gun suicides really cured me of ever considering it, too.

Now, I know other people may have more proclivity toward suicide than myself. In that case I would just say that you should ask yourself: Do I pose more of a threat to myself than other people? If so, it's time to hand your arsenal over to a trusted friend or family member for a time.

The very fact that you're able to do so indicates that you have control over your actions and DON'T want to end your life with suicide.

 

[Michael in LH]

Conwict wrote:

Oh, and not to sound callous - this is really the honest truth - but seeing pics of gun suicides really cured me of ever considering it, too.​

I think you have hit upon something here. My guess is that most people who kill themselves with a firearm have probably never seen the actual damage a gun can do and the mess that gets left behind.

 

[Geno]

I had a dear friend and former hunting buddy who had pretty significant bi-polar disorder. I never once feared him, nor did I ever witness him do anything other than conduct himself properly. The antis will always conjure-up reasons for taking firearms...what's next, if your body weight drops more than 1% in a month?!

Don't mean to rant, it's simply that I see a slippery slope.

 

[IncredibleGord]

I've always thought it would be a gun enthusiasts duty to never kill themselves with a gun no matter how depressed they were. Hypothetically If I was going to, I wouldn't use mine, I respect my firearms too much. And It would detract from the real situation. The ones that are left behind would just blame the gun, not the issue. My mom said that suicide is the most selfish thing that we could do. Btw. Hypothetically speaking again.... If the Bradys are ever "taken from us" early on. The perp better not use a gun. Imagine the spin.

<1st amendment btw, say what you want about this topic>

 

[7.62X25mm]

The whole premise on the face of it is asinine. There's no cause/effect relationship between guns, depression, and suicide. Just like there's no cause/effect relationship between high bridges, depression and suicide.

Despite its hysterical lack of any reliable credibility, Brady still seems to get cited by the media as some sort of "resource."

 

[thertel]

Guns are tools/things, just like razors, barbituates & alcohol, ropes, etc. They don't kill people, it is the person using them that does.

My best friend since 6th grade killed himself on the 14th with a shotgun. No one suspected that anything was wrong, he made plans like normal, was just being himself. We found out afterwards that he was fired from his teaching job at 4pm that day. I finally got to see the police report the day before thanksgiving and they had him on video buying the gun, the strangest part was how he held it on the way to his truck. It was like a filthy object to him extended infront of him like a dirty diaper. I honestly believe that had he not been able to get the gun he would have done it another way, mainly due to that he shot himself twice before he died, once apparently destroing his jaw the next taking off the top of his head.

I've had to listen to his family going on about how evil guns are, and how walmart is responsible because they sold him the gun. But what it really comes down to is that their son, picked the first method that came to mind and went for it. It could just as easily have been carbon monoxide poisoning or a noose.

As for the selfishness of suicide, I tend to agree. I walked out of the funeral service because they kept talking about how much he loved his family, friends, and students. Who puts their loved ones through this sort of grief and pain.

The damage a shotgun with a slug inflicts at point blank on a human is amazing, as is what funeral homes can do to rebuild a person for open casket services. His jaw was destroyed as was the top of his head, They were able to make a new jaw and put a baseball cap on his head. All I could think everytime I looked at him was "We can rebuild him, but he will look like Dale Gribble".

I finally snapped out of my depression over this after talking to the police, because it felt like there was closure. I can even remember him as he was and take humor in something he told the clerk at the gun counter. "I would like you cheapest shotgun and cheapest pack of shells," which for all that knew my friend, was just part of his legendary cheapness.

Thomas

Thomas

 

[FMJMIKE]

My father committed suicide with a handgun. I do not blame the gun. It was my father that made a bad decision. I keep guns for self defense purposes. Guns are just inanimate objects to me. Tools with a purpose. Not bad or evil.

 

[LKB3rd]

Conwict wrote:

Oh, and not to sound callous - this is really the honest truth - but seeing pics of gun suicides really cured me of ever considering it, too.

I think you have hit upon something here. My guess is that most people who kill themselves with a firearm have probably never seen the actual damage a gun can do and the mess that gets left behind.

I suffered from depression a while back, and was having "suicidal ideation." I looked at pictures of gun suicides and the same thing happened. I thought of the person who found those people. I thought of their families having to identify the bodies. I wanted nothing to do with any of that.
That was before I was a gun owner. Another thing that changed my mind about suicide was actually firing a gun, and feeling and seeing the power that they create. That also went a long way toward changing my thinking about suicide. It isn't so easy to think about doing that anymore, because it is a lot more real, having become familiar with guns and what they can do.

 

[gripper]

I have had significant experience with being in "depressing" situations vs. actually having the affliction of depression( thankfully!)...that said;sometimes one DOES need help in getting through the hard times that are not permanent,or in dealing with the ones that are....I don't know if this helps,but a "support system" of close friends,family you can trust( of which I really don't have,but I am a stubborn ba$****)help a great deal...having routines that (for the individual) are stable and centering...those can be something as basic as exercise,prayer,playing with the dog( soemthing else I miss!)or reading.
Thankfully ,I have never had experience with suicidal ideation/feelings;although I DID have two experiences in the Army where I witnessed it. in the second one,unfortunately ;the man succeeded in killing himself( jumped from a moving vehicle).The first one was a case of literally walking in on someone who had a hideout gun under his chin and luckily( for the two of us!) stopping him by physical means.
Some folks react strangely to being regarded as/categorized as "unsafe" with weapons ownership,sort of the way some folks go REALLY over the top when given a restraining order-it may shove them into th e"other means of suicide" efforts.
I think it would be best to avoid overgeneralization-those who know the afflicted individuals have a better grasp of their situation than any of us on the forum could.

 

[pharmer]

Had a friend in high school put a 30-06 to the roof of his mouth and toe the trigger. Nothing left above lower jaw. The gas from a 30-06 does more damage than the bullet. If you're depressed, no big deal. If you don't get "it" fixed, it'll become a big deal. Joe

 

[RPCVYemen]

One, people don't need a firearm to commit suicide. A car and a garden hose, or a length of rope will work just fine.

I don't have an answer for the poster, but I think that the assumption that the only concern about a person suffering from depression/bi-polar disease is that they will kill only themselves is questionable.

Depression can involve a lot of anger, and severely depressed people - and bi-polar folks - can be pretty hard to predict.

Every working policeman that I have known (which is a pretty small sample, statistically speaking ) has at least a couple of stories about "suicide by cop".

One of my English teacher buddies in Somali was a retired officer who swore that "suicide by cop" always involve in-laws, and always happened in trailer parks. He told me that with a haunted smile - his last "suicide by cop" incident convinced him that he did not want to be a policeman any more. He really did not like shooting and killing someone.

Don't know how that should fit into the OP's question. I do suspect that there are a lot of kinds of "depression", and that most are not associated with violence. I think that there is more of a risk of violence with bi-polar disease.

I had a dear friend and former hunting buddy who had pretty significant bi-polar disorder.

I don't exactly know what "significant" means, but I have known a couple of people who have suffered from bi-polar disease severe enough to require hospitalization/medication. I would not want to see them in possession of a firearm at either end of the spectrum - though in truth the hyper end would probably be more dangerous than the depression end.

Mike

 

[DocMustang]

I have written before about the rather disjointed relationship I have with my coleagues in the world of medicine with respect to firearms. However on the subject of suicide I tend to agree with them. Firearms are indeed a tool. For better or worse they are a very efficient tool for transmitting energy into their targets. A nice way of putting that they can do great damage to tissue that they are directed against. Yes they can be used for sport, beit steel or paper targets. However their inteded purpose is to damage living flesh and render it non-living or at least unable to fight back. As gun owners we come to terms with that and stress respect for the damage that firearms can do. Isnt that the reason why we teach the four rules? Firearms are in short the most conveinient and lethal method of personally projecting violence upon humans that humanity has ever concieved.

Like any other tool its usefullness depends upon the character of the user. In the case of firearms and depression, it is the character of the user that has become flawed and therefore dangerous. There is a reason why although women attempt suicide more frequently than men, men complete suicide more often. The primary difference is the method employed. Firearms as a whole have a significantly higher suicide completion rate than any other method. This is why access to firearms is listed as a significant risk factor for suicide by the American Psychiatric Association.

Fatal Nonfatal Total % Fatal
Firearm 16,869 2,980 19,849 85%
Suffocation 6,198 2,761 8,959 69%
Poisoning/ 5,191 215,814 221,005 2%
overdose
Fall 651 1,434 2,085 31%
Cut/pierce 458 62,817 63,275 1%
Other 1,109 35,089 36,198 3%
Unspecified 146 2,097 2,243 7%
Total 30,622 322,991 353,613 9%


This table covers all U.S. suicide deaths in 2001 and estimated visits to the emergency department (ED) for nonfatal self-harm (based on a nationally-representative sample of emergency departments). "Case Fatality Ratio" (% fatal) is the proportion of cases recorded in a year that are fatal. The ED estimate overstates ED-treated suicide attempts because non-suicidal self-harm cannot be disaggregated from actual suicide attempts; at the same time, it underestimates nonfatal suicide attempts since most suicide attempts do not result in care.

Source: Vyrostek SB, Annest JL, Ryan GW. Surveillance for fatal and nonfatal injuries--United States, 2001. MMWR. 2004:53(SS07);1-57.

I found these data on the Harvard School of Public Health website. While as a whole I find the whole "Guns as a public health issue" ideology flawed. In the case of suicide the numbers are quite revealing.

What then should responsible gun owners do? The first is shepherd our loved ones. How many times have we read Col. Grossman's damn sheepdog essay. Is not the role of a sheepdog shepherd? Keep our firearms under our control and out of the hands of those who would harm themselves. If someone we know and love shows signs of depression and has access to firearms, reach out and offer to keep their guns for a while. Ask questions at first don't demand. If you are depressed or know you may have a problem reach out and ask for help accept help if offered. Please do not make a temporary problem permanant.

Thanks,
Doc