meanmrmustard
Member
Fixed it for you.And some forget exactly what kind of guy Patton was and how very much he liked to make garand statements.
The Inventor of the Greatest Battle Implement Ever Devised Speaks
- Thread starter Big Al Mass
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MachIVshooter
Member
No, it isn't.
Springfield M1A standard is 9.3 lbs.
Armalite AR-10A2F is 9.2 lbs; the A4 is 8.9 Lbs.
These are the current incarnation, of course. The original AR-10 was under 6 Lbs, and was totally uncontrollable in FA.
I'm not trying to be pedantic, but when a lighter or heavier claim is made, the truth is the truth, whether it's a few ounces or several pounds.
cal30_sniper
Member
The use of the '06 actually vastly simplified ammo logistics. It allowed them to use the same ammunition for the battle rifle, medium and light machine gusn, shipboard anti-sea and anti-air defenses, and a lot of the air-to-air weapons employed (even though it was outshone in the air war by the larger .50 and 20mm rounds). A .30-06 may be overpowered for a man, but its a whole lot better at ripping through vehicles and planes than a smaller caliber short action would have been. By concentrating on a single caliber for many different uses, you get a cartridge that isn't perfect for any of them, but you can produce a whole lot of them, easily distribute them, and they work effectively across the entire range.
The .308 duplicated the performance of the '06 for military use due to better propellants. It is still the cartridge we use for medium machine guns, long range work, and designated marksman rifles. How much more complicated is it to supply two different cartridges to infantry units these days than back when everything used the '06?
I agree though, something along the lines of a 7mm-08 would have been perfect for a downsized Garand. It wouldn't have been nearly as good for the Machine guns, tanks, ships, and planes though, where if you look at it, the vast majority of rounds are actually fired.
Kachok
Member
Well I think it is very safe to say that the 50 BMG makes a much better anti-aricraft/anti-vehicle cartridge then any 30 caliber, the difference is large enough to justify two or in our case three separate cartridges, one light anti-personal (5.56x45), one versitle medium caliber (7.62x51), and one heavy anti-vehicle round (50 BMG) Now I personally think the 223 is a bit light for a reliable man stopper at range, partly due to the unreliable terminal performance of the 62gr FMJ, there are quite a few 6mm-7.62mm cartridges I think are better suited to the task.
Ramone
Member
( Gen. Patton never had to carry one!)
Fryerpower
Member
Clearly English was not his first language, but he speaks it better than I speak any other language other than English!
He looks stiff reading off of his notes. No matter what you say about his presentation skills you cannot knock his design skills!
-Jim
kBob
Member
Thanks for sharing this with us. The accent surprised me as I was expecting a French sort of thing.
That he thought a lighter rifle with a lighter cartridge was a good thing to be sought after is no surprise to anyone that read Hatcher.
BTW The Infantry School at Ft . Benning worked up an M-14 stock with pistol grip and side folding butt that weighed in at about eight pounds in 1972 or so.
They also had some aluminum magazines made up and developed a 90 grain bullet loading that moved at 3200fps based on the front bullet of the old duplex round. The steel portions of the rifle were unchanged and could be dropped into a normal wood stock and could use 150 grain 7.62 Ball etc without changes. They were looking at aluminum cartridge cases but were having some issues.
Sounds like an improved and lightened Garand to me. I heard but have never read that at one point a lightened M-14 type design was being looked at to use the 6mm SAW cartridge. Think something a bit larger than a Mini-14 and a bit smaller than an M-14 or Ruger XGI.
The Klashnicov is a garand turned half upside down, reduced in size for th M43 round and given a removable magazine. Seriously look at it unbiased and you will see it.
-kBob
That he thought a lighter rifle with a lighter cartridge was a good thing to be sought after is no surprise to anyone that read Hatcher.
BTW The Infantry School at Ft . Benning worked up an M-14 stock with pistol grip and side folding butt that weighed in at about eight pounds in 1972 or so.
They also had some aluminum magazines made up and developed a 90 grain bullet loading that moved at 3200fps based on the front bullet of the old duplex round. The steel portions of the rifle were unchanged and could be dropped into a normal wood stock and could use 150 grain 7.62 Ball etc without changes. They were looking at aluminum cartridge cases but were having some issues.
Sounds like an improved and lightened Garand to me. I heard but have never read that at one point a lightened M-14 type design was being looked at to use the 6mm SAW cartridge. Think something a bit larger than a Mini-14 and a bit smaller than an M-14 or Ruger XGI.
The Klashnicov is a garand turned half upside down, reduced in size for th M43 round and given a removable magazine. Seriously look at it unbiased and you will see it.
-kBob
chris in va
Member
So true. I sold my Mosin m38 mainly due to punishing recoil. My Garand is a real joy to shoot in comparison.
BTW my GF was born in PEI and spoke French/Acadian as a kid. She took a listen and said Quebec has a strange accent, not like regular French speakers. She said it's probably about right. Personally it sounds more like Italian to me.
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What I really would like is to find the rest of the footage from that lecture. The Big Picture episode only had that segment in it, but I can't image they would have had Garand making that presentation without talking about the whole rack of early prototype rifles next to him. I would LOVE to find the film of him talking about those...
FWIW, have you seen what he was working on when he retired from Springfield Armory? Pretty funky looking rifle:
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/m14-development/t31/
FWIW, have you seen what he was working on when he retired from Springfield Armory? Pretty funky looking rifle:
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/m14-development/t31/
courier de bois
Member
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Hi guys. I read THR alot, but don't post often. This time I thought I needed to chime in.
Jean Garrand- yes pronounced Gar or Gah -ran, was born in Saint Remi de Iberville, a small town about 20 minutes south of Montreal.
He emmigrated to Rhode Island as a teenage, and his gift for improving machinery in textile mills impressed his supervisors so much, at the start of WW1, they thought it patriotic to tell the army about him.
He was offered a job at Springfield about 1920, the army really wanted to improve or replace the Mauser action 03 and French automatic rifles the infantry hated so much.
One day he bought a box of what was the new 300 Savage, when things were slow or work caught up, he would work on designing ang machining- a military firearm around this hunting cartridge. One day when several high ranking officers were visiting, taking a tour and chatting with employees, Jean showed them his new invention. Mechanically, it was an M14, it is ugly. Short, light, a reworked BAR mag didn't help. First off, the US army was still not sold on select fire, as a waste of ammo, and related to that, there were still nearly 3 billion 30-06 rounds left from the great war. They weren't about to change calibres especially after 'the war to end all wars' right? Besides, there was still a tactical need to hit a horse at 1000 yards. Alot of military firearms people nowdays don't realize the huge calibres weren't to blow away the enemy infantry at 100's of yards, but to kill- or better yet, just wound a horse or ox. These were prime targets up to Korea, or again lately? A wounded animal had to be taken out of its traces, now it's unlikely a field piece or ammo will get into positon to shell your guys. It was a big deal.
In the middle of the second war, another group of staffers was meeting with Garrand, a young Lt asked why, on when everything is still and quiet, you can hear something in a cartridge. Jean told him powders improved since the 30-06 replaced the Krag, and it wasn't wise to max out the load just because there was room. Another number cruncher was estimating the ammount of brass wasted in that un-needed half an inch. Garrand opened a cupboard and slipped his mag fed project on the table. He said 'I made this around the Savage 300 20 years ago, you guys didn't like it. But now, there ain't 3 billion old bullets to save money on, and you guys like tommyguns and carbines, but I guess when you don't shoot at horses no more, you can make this'.
When he was retiring, and the US HAD to adapt or design a rifle around the 7.62 NATO, he gave the armory this prototype and prints free of charge, but he never charged for any of his designs or inventions.
Oh, and he almost got fired for laying a tent on his living room floor, pouring a couple inches of water in it, and leaving the windows open till it froze. The house was gov't property, and the keepers had a fit.
His family, and former Canadian Prime Minister Pierre E Trudeau and his family, and my ancestors... are all in the same cemetary south of St Remi.
Sorry for being so long winded!
Jean Garrand- yes pronounced Gar or Gah -ran, was born in Saint Remi de Iberville, a small town about 20 minutes south of Montreal.
He emmigrated to Rhode Island as a teenage, and his gift for improving machinery in textile mills impressed his supervisors so much, at the start of WW1, they thought it patriotic to tell the army about him.
He was offered a job at Springfield about 1920, the army really wanted to improve or replace the Mauser action 03 and French automatic rifles the infantry hated so much.
One day he bought a box of what was the new 300 Savage, when things were slow or work caught up, he would work on designing ang machining- a military firearm around this hunting cartridge. One day when several high ranking officers were visiting, taking a tour and chatting with employees, Jean showed them his new invention. Mechanically, it was an M14, it is ugly. Short, light, a reworked BAR mag didn't help. First off, the US army was still not sold on select fire, as a waste of ammo, and related to that, there were still nearly 3 billion 30-06 rounds left from the great war. They weren't about to change calibres especially after 'the war to end all wars' right? Besides, there was still a tactical need to hit a horse at 1000 yards. Alot of military firearms people nowdays don't realize the huge calibres weren't to blow away the enemy infantry at 100's of yards, but to kill- or better yet, just wound a horse or ox. These were prime targets up to Korea, or again lately? A wounded animal had to be taken out of its traces, now it's unlikely a field piece or ammo will get into positon to shell your guys. It was a big deal.
In the middle of the second war, another group of staffers was meeting with Garrand, a young Lt asked why, on when everything is still and quiet, you can hear something in a cartridge. Jean told him powders improved since the 30-06 replaced the Krag, and it wasn't wise to max out the load just because there was room. Another number cruncher was estimating the ammount of brass wasted in that un-needed half an inch. Garrand opened a cupboard and slipped his mag fed project on the table. He said 'I made this around the Savage 300 20 years ago, you guys didn't like it. But now, there ain't 3 billion old bullets to save money on, and you guys like tommyguns and carbines, but I guess when you don't shoot at horses no more, you can make this'.
When he was retiring, and the US HAD to adapt or design a rifle around the 7.62 NATO, he gave the armory this prototype and prints free of charge, but he never charged for any of his designs or inventions.
Oh, and he almost got fired for laying a tent on his living room floor, pouring a couple inches of water in it, and leaving the windows open till it froze. The house was gov't property, and the keepers had a fit.
His family, and former Canadian Prime Minister Pierre E Trudeau and his family, and my ancestors... are all in the same cemetary south of St Remi.
Sorry for being so long winded!
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