The Iraqis want us out

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Gee thanks, Borachon, for the internet search tip ... So, you're jumping on the bandwagon, too? The original concept of this thread was an attempt to inform all that "the Iraqis want us out of their country." Now, I'll say to you what I said to Javafiend:
It is time to move on and quit using "evidence" of past misdeeds to prove points on current events.
Now, if you want to believe that all the citations you're providing are evidence the U.S. "sponsors" terrorism, go right ahead.
Patrice Lumumba (Congo)
• Fidel Castro (Cuba)
• Rafael Trujillo (Dominican Republic)
• Ngo Dinh Diem (Vietnam)
• Rene Schneider (Chile)
Enlightened leaders all, all of whom accomplished myriads of good deeds for their countries' citizens ...
 
They deliberately target Mosques, weddings, and markets, all of which only have innocent civilians at them.

Actually, I kinda suspect that's at least SOME of those are our counter-operations against THEM. We do them as "false flag" operations where we go in dressed as Arabs. Or even more directly...for instance, if you want to drive a wedge between Sunnis and Shi'as then you drive by a Shi'a wedding dressed as a Sunni and shoot up the place. Or vice versa. Now you've caused problems between two factions...who will hopefully start killing each other and take some heat off US forces.

I'm not just talking out of my a** on this either. Just a couple of months ago, two SAS members were arrested in Iraq after firing on an Iraqi police unit (the police that we Coalition Forces had trained). The soldiers were dressed as Arabs and according to first reports had explosives and bomb making materials in their car. Strange behavior for the SAS to have fired on Iraqi Police...and to have been in Arab clothes.

Here's the British version of events:
http://www.ladlass.com/intel/archives/010183.html

A crowd had gathered at the jail and was yelling "Murderers out" when some British armored vehicles appeared on the scene and broke out the jail's walls to free the SAS members.

Another version:
The two commandoes -- alternately identified as members of Britian's notorious SAS or a newer offshoot, the SRR -- were driving around a demonstration in Basra when their suspicious behavior attracted the attention of Basra police.
The Scotsman now reports that the men are members of the SRR, or Special Reconnaissance Regiment. The insignia shows a Greek helmet with a sword thrust through the mouth and up through the back of the skull.
The police attempted to stop the men, who were disguised as Arabs in local garb over their T-shirts and trousers. The men wore black-hair wigs and, according to some reports, typical headresses.
And they also carried a whole lot of weapons, including explosives and other bomb-making materials. They began firing at the police and passers-by.
At least one Basra policeman was shot dead. At least one person in the crowd was shot dead. An undetermined number of others were injured in the gunfight.
The British pair was jailed. Arab television showed the beaten men with bandages on their heads, and their huge collection of weaponry. Basra -- a relatively peaceful city compared to the rest of bloodsoaked Iraq -- had suddenly lost patience with the British occupiers, caught red-handed with all the tools necessary to launch "suicide bombs" against the people.

And that's when the townspeople showed up to mete out some Iraqi folk justice on the SAS members. Probably because Basra had been experiencing a spate of bombings at mosques and other religious sites that week. Hmmm...coincidence?

So anyway the Brits called in the armor...some Molotov cocktails were thrown...people got killed. And 150 terrorists in the jail escaped along with the two SAS members.

Here's pictures of the two. They are already outed anyway so I'm not hurting them by putting their pictures here. 200905merc1.jpg

200905merc2.jpg
 
Now, if you want to believe that all the citations you're providing are evidence the U.S. "sponsors" terrorism, go right ahead.

Don't get me wrong. There is a time and place for covert actions. When you've got a government...or even a private organization....that is a threat to the citizens of the United States, then I've got no problem killing them, or trying to change their government. What I object to is the sophistry.:) Wrapping ourselves up in the flag and talking about how much 'morally better' we are than those "savages" just makes me laugh. Some of the things we've done in the name of Democracy have been horrific. The US kills people...get use to it. Every government ever made has killed people.

What I wouldn't mind seeing though is a little more forethought on what we want to accomplish before we start The Killing. Call me a traditionalist, but I'd almost like to see our killing done with the goal of promoting Democracy, or Justice, or even something just as simple as treating people decently. A lot of our killing now seems to be motivated toward lining the pockets of some large multi-national corporations...and it seems to me like some of our leaders have forgotten that OUR soldiers aren't expendible. They are being used like pawns on a chessboard. Seems like that to me. We can't up-armor a Humvee in order to save some soldiers in Iraq? What's up with that crap? More and more, I think what's up with it is "M.O.N.E.Y" There are some people in this country getting mega rich off blood. Our soldiers blood...Iraqi blood...they don't seem to care who's, or how much, blood gets spilled as long as the dollars keep rolling in.

If we lived a little closer to our stated principles (democracy...freedom etc) we'd have a lot more peope on our side around the world. What they see now when they look at us are a bunch of hypocrits. We mouth one set of words, and then DO something completely different. Let me go on record first as saying that we might be able to get away with this for awhile, but you can't "spin" the whole world forever.

If we gotta kill, let's kill for a higher purpose. All I'm saying.

Edit:
I went back and read what you wrote.
believe that all the citations you're providing are evidence
On this point at least, I can point out that a lot of my evidence came from testimonies before the Senate or Congress of the United States. I'm not condemning our agents for the roles they've played. I MIGHT condemn some of our leaders for backing some asinine plans that looked idiotic from the get-go, but I'm not going to critique the agents, or start second guessing what they did when ordered to do it.

I think though, if you boil it all down, that there are times and places when people who bore no ill will toward the United States were suddenly and dramatically killed because of actions that were started in the US. And I think some of those actions were started covertly, and used methods designed to hide the involvement of the United States. Call that whatever you want...but I promise you that the effects it produces among the people we helped kill don't look ANYTHING different than what our enemies have done to us. The enemies that we have labelled as terrorists. Our methods, and their effects, bear striking similarity to activities that we've labelled as terrorism.

I'm not saying we should stop...but I am tired of us lying to ourselves about it.
 
Actually, I kinda suspect that's at least SOME of those are our counter-operations against THEM. We do them as "false flag" operations where we go in dressed as Arabs. Or even more directly...for instance, if you want to drive a wedge between Sunnis and Shi'as then you drive by a Shi'a wedding dressed as a Sunni and shoot up the place. Or vice versa. Now you've caused problems between two factions...who will hopefully start killing each other and take some heat off US forces.

Ummm....why on earth would we want to start a de-stabalizing civil war in a country we are trying to stabalize? Never mind the fact that the accusation of coalition forces bombing mosques and wedding paties for any reason is absurd. Yeah, it's an evil Bush plan to murder Iraqi civilians in order to start a civil war and make it look like the war in Iraq is unsuccessful. Boy, unsuccessful operations that de-stabalize into civil war sure "take the heat" off US forces.:rolleyes:
 
Ummm....why on earth would we want to start a de-stabalizing civil war in a country we are trying to stabalize? Never mind the fact that the accusation of coalition forces bombing mosques and wedding paties for any reason is absurd. Yeah, it's an evil Bush plan to murder Iraqi civilians in order to start a civil war and make it look like the war in Iraq is unsuccessful. Boy, unsuccessful operations that de-stabalize into civil war sure "take the heat" off US forces.
Guess what? It doesn't have to make any sense for folks with an anti-American or anti-administration viewpoint to simply blame Bush. The only criteria is that it is something bad.

Borachon, Iraq isn't a very tidy place right now. The foreign fundamentalists, the Baathists, some of the Sunnis, and a few of the Shiites are against Americans. The foreign fundamentalists and many of the Sunnis are against the Kurds and Shiites. That's just looking at the big groups. By the time you get down to the tribal level and include jockeying for position within groups, you need a scorecard just to identify the players. And that's without even mentioning for-profit criminal activity. Americans would probably have to get in line to do some of the nefarious stuff you are suggesting.
 
Ummm....why on earth would we want to start a de-stabalizing civil war in a country we are trying to stabalize?

Stabalization wouldn't be a problem. Or actually...let me argue this from another direction. IF stability is your goal, then why don't we put 500,000 troops on the ground in Iraq? I have 3 friends who've served in Iraq. None of them have been told that they need to return there. So I know from personal experience that there are soldiers here in the US who could be re-assigned to Iraq...but who are not being re-assigned. Perhaps you gentlemen know some people also where this the case.

Without enough people to police the grounds, we will never see a stable Iraq. So why haven't we sent more troops? Well, because I think that an unstable Iraq serves a number of purposes. As long as fighting is going on in Iraq, you will have Jihadis (Islamic fighters...from lots of different countries) coming to fight in Iraq against the "evil American invaders". This means that Jihadis who would normally be blowing up stuff in Chechnia, Bosnia, Israel, London, Paris...maybe even places like Brazil or the United States, are not doing so. They have a place to fight. Iraq. Iraq is not part of the United States. American buildings and American citizens (contractors excepted) are not being blown up. We are giving would be and professional terrorists a theatre in which to fight us. We don't want to "win"...or begin to appear like we are savagely beating the insurgency because once that happens, the terrorists abroad will stop coming there. Better by far to make the terrorist think that they have half a chance of winning. That way they'll commit resources, send people, use up their money, and get killed...all inside Iraq. Not in the US, or Britian, or other places around the world.

That's one purpose. Another purpose is to keep Iran from taking over huge chunks of Iraq. The Shi'a population in Iraq is going to be at least somewhat sympathetic to Shi'a led Iran. Keeping the whole situation in flux means we don't end up with stability...stability that would be entirely in the favor of Iran.

Also...the example I cited with the two SAS officers puts a bad light on Britian, not necessarily on the United States. Britian could be playing her own game in Mid East politics. It's never safe to assume that just because the US is allied with another nation that our ally is always going to be in lockstep with us. The British had a hand in Iraqi politics long before we got there. Maybe they are playing a double game. Doubtful...but you can't dismiss it until proven otherwise.

I think too that our administration realizes that installing a democracy in Iraq just isn't going to work. The Kurds have struggled too long to have a separate nation and they aren't going to voluntarily give up that dream. Sunnis and Shias have got a lot of "payback" built up over the last 30 years of Saddam's rule. The minute we leave; it starts. Factionalized fighting between Sunnis, Shi'as, and Kurds though would keep Iraq from building up to it's former level as a fighting force. Iraq would be a hell on earth, but the rest of the region around them would be largely safe...at least from Iraqi invasion. So I wouldn't doubt that some of the explosions were designed to "keep the pot boiling". We really don't want the Shi'a and the Sunni to unite against us. We saw how problematic that can be when Al-Sadr brought his followers into the field to fight us. So we don't need them both working together. Better we play on some of those old divisions...and keep them targetting each other, and not US troops.

And finally, I think that there is a lot of money being made by companies that supply the military. A stable Iraq would cause cut backs in supplies needed. If nothing else, they'd need fewer bullets. :) But there are tons of other supplies that go along with keeping an army in the field. Also, instability is keeping the price of oil artificially high. If the conflict in Iraq was not occuring, and if the oil pipelines weren't being regularly blown up, you would see a tremendous drop in the oil price. Maybe even half as much as it is now. Oil companies recorded record profits this last quarter. 10 BILLION...with a "B"...dollars in PROFIT...not just sales...PROFIT. For ONE company. Exxon, I believe. That's a helluva lot of money. Without the instability in the Middle East, and particularly in Iraq...but also with threats to invade Iran...you wouldn't be seeing the price of oil stay high. At one point, a couple of years ago, everytime you saw a pipeline blow up, you'd see a spike in oil on Wall Street. That hasn't really stopped. If there was no oil in Iraq, do any of you believe that we would be investing half as much money and effort into Iraq?

Not really going to matter too much though. Historically, the US never stays as an occupier for more than about 6 years...Vietnam being an exception, but we had semi-good reasons in Vietnam. I think all of our troops will be out of Iraq in two years...and then we can watch it all fall apart.
 
Americans would probably have to get in line to do some of the nefarious stuff you are suggesting.

I think plenty of Americans have already acted nefariously. Every day that the troops don't get body armor, or have their humvee's outfited with reinforced doors, I think we ought to take a supplier company exec out and shoot them in front of the corporate headquarters. I bet the troops would get their supplies then!

Edit:
But if you meant that American's are incapable of acting with hidden motives, or are incapable of acting in a barbarous fashion, then I direct your attention to Abu Ghraib prison. Which..by the way...do you think higher ups knew what was going on and condoned it? Or was that just local troops getting out of hand? Or perhaps you'd like to argue that the treatment of prisoners was justified? I'm curious to see.

Reedit:
I had a bunch of links about US bombing wedding parties in Afghanistan and Iraq. But a computer glitch got 'em. If you wanna know, look on the net. They are there.

One thing I will try to repost though...call it an interesting coincidence. The British army investigator who is investigating the two SAS men's capture in Basra..is dead! Hung to death. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/basr-o21.shtml
 
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Every day that the troops don't get body armor, or have their humvee's outfited with reinforced doors, I think we ought to take a supplier company exec out and shoot them in front of the corporate headquarters.
All the troops have body armor, and have since the beginning. The hang-up is with a new type of armor. And HMMWV's were never meant to be armored in the first place.

I had a bunch of links about US bombing wedding parties in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Were they from the World Socialist Web Site as well? Stop trying to equate accidents with intentional acts. Get this through your head: IT'S NOT THE SAME THING.
 
The troops all have Interceptor or equivalent quality vests.

There was a lag getting the newest and greatest armor to each and every troop, but you can't wish ceramic plates out of thin air. Support troops made due with older crappier vests until supply caught up, which it did shortly.

Shooting execs will not make a complicated manufacturing process any quicker. You think said execs want to slow down their production? They are getting paid for what they deliver, not by the hour.

One of the main reasons for the initial lag was quality control problems with the SAPI plates. If they had simply lowered the standards and rushed more of them to the troops then you would be on a soapbox about "troops getting defective armor".
 
Reedit:
I had a bunch of links about US bombing wedding parties in Afghanistan and Iraq. But a computer glitch got 'em. If you wanna know, look on the net. They are there.
It wasn't a 'computer glitch'. It was the Bush administration covering their tracks. You should know that. :p

I'm not a repository of information about US bombing tactics, but I think the wedding party bombing is blown all out of proportion. I've only heard of one instance, where U.S. planes were overflying a wedding party as the partygoers let loose with their AK47's. The pilots thought they were under fire and responded. What kind of doofi fire AK47's into the air at a wedding anyway?
 
What kind of doofi fire AK47's into the air at a wedding anyway?[/QUOTE]
You obviously haven't spent much time in L.A...
:uhoh:
Biker
 
To get back to the orignal issue here, if in fact a majority of Iraqis want us to pull our forces out, should we?

Seems pretty obvious to me. If you favor Iraqi self-determination, that means that you must also favor it if the determination is counter to our interests. The assumption that democracy = pro-American is just that. I doubt it's true.

If not, then you are advocating imperialism. And that's a whole 'nother discussion. I'm sure that there are many here who would welcome the construction of an American empire. Certainly there are a bunch of people in the US government who feel that way. But I somehow doubt that you could get a majority of Americans to go along with that proposition.

So, for the sake of discussion, if the majority opinion in Iraq is that we should leave, what would you do?

--Shannon
 
Old Dog wrote:
SOA is old news; the mindset, philosophy and curriculum were overhauled. It is time to move on and quit using "evidence" of past misdeeds to prove points on current events.

OldDog's statement reflects the Change of Course doctrine. The trick is deeply rooted in the intellectual culture generally - invoked by apologists for state terror in the United States every two or three years. The content of the doctrine is: "Yes, in the past we did some wrong things because of innocence or inadvertence. But now that's all over, so let's not waste any more time on this boring, stale stuff."

The doctrine is dishonest and cowardly, but it does have advantages: It protects us from the danger of understanding what is happening before our eyes.

OldDog sneered:
Patrice Lumumba (Congo)
• Fidel Castro (Cuba)
• Rafael Trujillo (Dominican Republic)
• Ngo Dinh Diem (Vietnam)
• Rene Schneider (Chile)
Enlightened leaders all, all of whom accomplished myriads of good deeds for their countries' citizens ...

General René Schneider Chereau (1913-1970) was the Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean Army at the time of the 1970 Chilean presidential election, when he was assassinated by CIA's people during a kidnapping attempt. His murder virtually assured Salvador Allende's election by the Chilean Congress two days later. Schneider had expressed firm opposition to the idea of preventing Allende's inauguration by means of a coup d'état; as a constitutionalist, he wished to preserve the military's apolitical history. See The Pinochet File: A Declassified Dossier on Atrocity and Accountability by Peter Kornbluh. A truly fascinating study of a CIA destabilization and its aftermath.
 
itgoesboom said:
We will leave when we are good and ready to leave, and when we feel that Iraq won't go back to what it was.

You mean a secular state? On that isn't firmly rooted in Shari'a law and ethics?

You mean the country that was the most literate in all of the middle east? With a huge middle class and a relatively accepting attitude to women's freedoms?

You mean the country that successfully fended off it's neighboring Islammofascist neighbor using chemical weapons that we sold them? for 8 years?

All Sarcasm aside, Saddam wasn't a good person. He was evil. He gave money to suicide bombers' families. He played host to Abu Nidal. His sons were horribly brutal. He killed all possible rivals and then he killed the families of those rivals and burned their houses and salted their land. Then he urinated on the ashes.

But we cannot completely ignore the impact that removing the one leader who held that country together in a secular state for decades is going to have, overall.

We have to make dang sure that WHEN we leave there, we leave them in a position to *accept* a secular government again, and I am not sure that we can do that, democracy or no. To make matters worse, Saddam made a habit of killing potential rivals. That means a new crop will take a while to bring up...I doubt we will see anything significant out of that country for at least the next generation.

My personal opinion:

To leave now would be nuts. we broke it, and we need to fix it, however long it takes.
 
The doctrine is dishonest and cowardly, but it does have advantages: It protects us from the danger of understanding what is happening before our eyes.
Whew, you are a cynical guy ... Sorry, Javafiend, but you miss the forest for the trees. Going beyond the fact that our country has since banned assassinations (remember all the Congressional hearings in the '70s and Ford's 1976 ban on CIA involvement in this sort of thing?), those past events that you're so fond of dredging up occurred in a very different culture, particularly with respect to the revolution in information technology. It's a very difficult matter these days to keep anything a secret for long, and the U.S. in particular has come a long way in fostering a culture in which its citizens are not only enabled to receive information in realtime on what the country's leadership, government apparatus and military are engaged in, but are encouraged to participate as "watchdogs," so to speak, on our government (now, if we could only get more folks to vote, but apparently we enjoy electing these losers, setting them up so we can watch their fall live on TV from our living rooms) ... Our Congress is so attuned to a report of misdeeds occurring within any aspect of officialdom, we even have hearings on drug use in professional sports. Our media is incredibly focused on reporting and investigating any event if there's a whiff of official misdeeds or a cover-up. The American people are so hyped about getting this information, thousands of new industries have sprung up within the past decade to support our insatiable thirst for "getting the dirt" on everyone else ...

Witness embedded media, reporting live in color during the heat of battle; a sitting President unable to control the spread of the story of his Oval Office sexual dalliance; instantaneous transmission via the internet of photos depicting U.S. soldiers involved in atrocities against prisoners of war ... I submit that the sort of things that happened up through the early '70s won't be repeated by our government.

I could go on and on, but you insist on using dated events from the '50s, '60 and '70s to "prove" that our government must still be systematically engaged in immoral and unlawful deeds, therefore, this is why we should immediately leave Iraq.

By the way, I'm surprised you didn't uncover more recent "evidence" on your pet assassination theories, such as the fact that Lumumba was killed by the Belgians ...
 
I'm not just talking out of my a** on this either. Just a couple of months ago, two SAS members were arrested in Iraq after firing on an Iraqi police unit (the police that we Coalition Forces had trained). The soldiers were dressed as Arabs and according to first reports had explosives and bomb making materials in their car. Strange behavior for the SAS to have fired on Iraqi Police...and to have been in Arab clothes.

Incorrect. The SAS soldiers had been stopped at a checkpoint by Shi'a militiamen. The SAS soldiers ID'd themselves, at which time the Shi'a militiamen attempted to arrest them.

A crowd had gathered at the jail and was yelling "Murderers out" when some British armored vehicles appeared on the scene and broke out the jail's walls to free the SAS members.

Partially correct. The British troops aimed the main gun of a Warrior AFV at the superintendant of the jail where the SAS troops were reportedly held and offered to blow him into the next world if the jail didn't release the SAS. Staring down the barrel caused the superintendant to remember that the SAS soldiers had been checked out of the jail by civilians and were being held somewhere else in the city. That "somewhere" just happening to be the hosue of the lead anti-Coalition Shi'a cleric.

So anyway the Brits called in the armor...some Molotov cocktails were thrown...people got killed. And 150 terrorists in the jail escaped along with the two SAS members.

Partially correct. People firing upon the British troops at the jail got dead. It happens. 150 people may have escaped from the jail, but the two SAS members weren't among them, because they were being held in the house of the lead anti-Coalition Shi'a cleric.

LawDog
 
Our Congress is so attuned to a report of misdeeds occurring within any aspect of officialdom, we even have hearings on drug use in professional sports.

Private sports = officialdom? Since when?

Those congressional hearings about steroids in baseball were total BS waste of tax-payer money providing useless information to distract us from real issues.

Witness embedded media,

Designed to provide the right Pentagon-approved spin.

It's a very difficult matter these days to keep anything a secret for long,

Not true. To give you just one example, the CIA refuses to declassify its documents about its liason with the DINA, the Chilean secret police. There's much we still just do not know there.

Bush has a penchant for secrecy. See Worse Than Watergate : The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush by former Watergate conspirator John Dean, a man who knows his way around scandal, corruption and abuse of power.

a sitting President unable to control the spread of the story of his Oval Office sexual dalliance

The president got a quickie. Oh boy.... Another non-story compared to Clinton's real misdeeds. See Feeling Your Pain : The Explosion and Abuse of Government Power in the Clinton-Gore Years by James Bovard.

I submit that the sort of things that happened up through the early '70s won't be repeated by our government.

Except that they did. Witness the 1980s, 1990s, and present times. You're just flat-out misinformed. Terror, torture, destabilization, support for dictatorships...it's still going on despite the bleatings of "change of course" by apologists for US state terror. The US fedgov still pursues a policy of dominating other countries all the while preaching self-righteous lies about promoting freedom, democracy, respect for human rights, and rule of law.:barf:

By the way, I'm surprised you didn't uncover more recent "evidence" on your pet assassination theories, such as the fact that Lumumba was killed by the Belgians ...

I have never in my life said or written anything about the assassination of Patrice Lumumba.
 
As you noted, Javafiend
I have never in my life said or written anything about the assassination of Patrice Lumumba.
... and you were correct; I misattributed Borachon's post to you. My apologies!
Private sports = officialdom? Since when?

Those congressional hearings about steroids in baseball were total BS waste of tax-payer money providing useless information to distract us from real issues.
I heartily concur with you on that; I provide that example as a symptom of Congressional fixation on being government's police dog ...

Quote:
It's a very difficult matter these days to keep anything a secret for long,


Not true. To give you just one example, the CIA refuses to declassify its documents about its liason with the DINA, the Chilean secret police. There's much we still just do not know there.
No, your example is again about a previous regime and a previous adminstration. My statement was talking about the here and now...
Quote:
Witness embedded media,


Designed to provide the right Pentagon-approved spin.
I take issue with that statement as well, and this is something I have personal experience with (ten months dealing with embedded reporters during OIF).
The president got a quickie. Oh boy.... Another non-story compared to Clinton's real misdeeds.
True statement there, and I agree, but my example was meant to show only how deeply we want to delve into titillating stories ...
You're just flat-out misinformed.
I prefer to believe that I simply interpret some events a bit differently than you chose to ... By no means am I an "apologist" for anything; to the contrary, I've got a pretty good understanding of some of the things certain arms of the government do, and have witnessed firsthand some aspects of what you're talking about -- rather than simply sitting at home reading books I've purchased from Amazon or old reports on the web ...
 
The SAS soldiers ID'd themselves, at which time the Shi'a militiamen attempted to arrest them.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize before now that you were standing there to see the whole incident. :rolleyes:

If the Brits were arrested while doing something relatively benign, why did they send in tanks to break down the jail walls? Why not just show up with the British laison and tell the police to release them? And for that matter, what was the problem with being arrested by the Shi'a militia? This was two months ago..not at a time when Al-Sadr's guys are on the street.

but the two SAS members weren't among them, because they were being held in the house of the lead anti-Coalition Shi'a cleric.

I haven't read that anywhere. All the reports I've seen said they were at the jail.

And...by the way...how hard is it for you guys to type in the words "wedding party" "iraq" "bomb" on a google search engine?

here's the second day: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42537-2004May20.html They say it was an insurgent base with mostly men in the "base".

THIS guy...who is actually there...tells a different story. http://www.theiraqmonitor.org/article/view/25925.html

There was a similar event that occurred in Afghanistan two years before this.
 
My statement was talking about the here and now...

Unfortunately, we Americans are the only nation with short memories. The Arab countries still remember when the Crusades attacked the Holy Land. What the CIA has done in the past in Iran and Iraq and in other nations in the Middle East is still remembered.
 
And...by the way...how hard is it for you guys to type in the words "wedding party" "iraq" "bomb" on a google search engine?
ok, I did that and only came up with one instance in Iraq, in May 2004. Apparently there was a prior instance in Afghanistan in 2002.

What's the point? Were the Iraquis firing AK's into the air? Did our pilots think they were under attack and respond? Also, aren't 'insurgents' or whatever the pc term is now, famous for hiding behind women and children?

You can't take two isolated instances where there may very well have been provocation and make blanket condemnations about US policy.
 
I'm surprised you didn't uncover more recent "evidence" on your pet assassination theories, such as the fact that Lumumba was killed by the Belgians ...

I could look around...probably find some stuff. But anything I found wouldn't be accepted by you guys as evidence anyway. I'm smart enough to know not to argue with a brick wall. To listen to you guys, you'd end up thinking there has never been one covert op by the US that ever hurt an innocent.

If you guys want to go on believing that the US government NEVER does anything that isn't "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" then I can't argue you to a new way of thinking. I do find it funny that many of you will believe in coordinated plots against your rights to own guns. Forces such as the UN, the Democrats...pick you favorite group, and then you balk at the idea that some people who were invaded by the US are getting the short end of a stick.:)

You guys are hilarious.
 
ok, I did that and only came up with one instance in Iraq, in May 2004. Apparently there was a prior instance in Afghanistan in 2002.

That was all I found too.

But somebody earlier had gotten on the high horse and said "We ain't never done it. Can't do it, cause we are perfect...and even if we did do it, they oughta be grateful for it." Or words to that effect. So I just wanted to find one instance.

As to the bombs that are blowing up outside of mosques and wedding parties, yeah some of them are ethnic problems between iraqis. Maybe even most of them...but some of them?...some of them are just too coincidental.

Like the guy who was investigating the SAS officers turning up dead. Damn strange that happened. We've had...what?...2100 people killed in two years? Very odd that any ONE guy would just die like that. But this PARTICULAR guy?! What are the odds on that? Gotta be astronomical.

I suppose you guys are now going to tell me that one branch of the military can't be in violent opposition to another.
 
by javafiend:
OldDog's statement reflects the Change of Course doctrine. The trick is deeply rooted in the intellectual culture generally - invoked by apologists for state terror in the United States every two or three years. The content of the doctrine is: "Yes, in the past we did some wrong things because of innocence or inadvertence. But now that's all over, so let's not waste any more time on this boring, stale stuff."
Is that Change of Course doctrine the trick that Carter and Clinton used to keep the School of the Americas open during their presidencies?
 
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