The longest gunfight

[DevLcL]

Does anyone know what the longest recorded sustained gunfight was?

I don't mean war or military action, and I don't mean a hostage situation that takes weeks. I've seen the documetaries on waco texas and the north hollywood shootout. At waco the cops never fired a shot and the criminals burned to death (probably their own fault) and in the hollywood shootout the criminals were just sprayin and prayin and as a result they were the only ones that died, they really wern't a threat to anyone that wasnt in the area and no cops would have even got hurt if they didnt try to stop them. Every so often you hear about the mall ninja who shoots at a cop with his super-tac'd-out mini 14 but he just get killed and doesnt hit the cops once because he had no real training and was well...a mall ninja. No.... no I'm talking about a group of people with the sole intention to start a gunfight and take out as many targets as possible, I'm talking non-stop unloading and reloading, changing positions, covering fire, stuff like that. I'm talking about a serious group of people that knew how to handle their weapons and handled them well. It seems to me that every time criminals get into a shootout with cops it ends rather quickly because the police are 100 strong against one or two or three guys. If the criminal force is anywhere near as strong or stronger then the cops then somehow the cops always talk them down or just somehow avoid the situation.

There has to be some sort of malitia out there that has started a serious gunfight. An example may be where the criminals have put down a number of officers and the military or national guard is called. I imagine the reason I've never heard of anything like this is because they would never re-enact this type of thing on the discovery or history channels, and you wont find too many people writing about the mistakes or failures of the law.

I'm not looking to learn from their mistakes( ) but rather I just have an interest in this sort of thing. I've always loved WWII movies for their serious gunfights and well as some other modern movies such as The Way of the Gun (very realistic) or HEAT. I suppose the sort of story I'm looking for may be just that... a story, a movie scene.

Imagine if the american revolution happened today with the government having heavy guns and air superiority, but the poeple knowing the land. Farmers who can hit anything with their old 30-30 and they know every inch of their farm. Gangsters in the city that would surely fight to save his or her "block" with their uzis and what-not. Police forces that would be split right down the middle with some officers wanting to serve the government and the rest wanting to serve the people. It would be all out chaos.

-Dev

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Your topic kind of rambles, but I'll hit the last paragraph

Farmers with 30-30s would get schwacked in short order. Who the heck wants to be within 30-30 range of the 25mm Bushmaster cannon mounted on an LAV? Don't forget the thermal imaging. Look at Iraq: any Iraqi attacking Americans in rural areas is pretty assured of meeting his maker.

The smart money is on fighting in an urban area where the ability to retaliate is limited by "noncombatants". The gov has zero problem calling down 155mm fire onto a chunk of your farmland to flush out a shooter, but it's a bit harder with an apartment building holding 1,000 people, after one guy caps off a round at your convoy from a random window. That's assuming your fighting a government that cares about not hurting noncombatants.

Gangster with an Uzi would get smoked far faster than a gangster with a .22 boltgun that kept well-back from the window.

Heck, most of your whole last paragraph can draw off the Iraq experience. Except in the States, it would be even worse: in Iraq, we're pretty dang sure that 99.998% of U.S. troops fight on the U.S. side.

Oh, and in response to the first half of your post: the North Hollywood shootout jumps to mind. You can run a search on THR or on Google about it; pretty interesting incident.

-MV

 

[DevLcL]

It does ramble, sorry, I just had another thought while I was typing the first.

The gov has zero problem calling down 155mm fire onto a chunk of your farmland to flush out a shooter

Your right, but what if the guy behind the cannon grew up on that farm??

in Iraq, we're pretty dang sure that 99.998% of U.S. troops fight on the U.S. side

That's exactly my point, even the military would be split up. You'd have troops with identical equipment fighting each other. It would come down to who was a better shot or who is more cold-blooded. I don't beleive this has ever really happened in history. Or course, im no historian, but it is my understnading that in all conflicts one party usually has the advantage over the other which is why eventually one party defeats the other.

Another thought. What would become of the soccer moms and PETA fundraisers after they have witnessed battle. My point is: There would be no more "sheltered" people. Being a young american would no longer consist of catching 'the real world' on Mtv after school and making sure you have the lastest designer jeans. You would be thrust into war either by the military or the people OR you would be thrown in jail for refusal to fight. One way or the other everyone would see the reality of life and death and what it means to take something for granted.

 

[Freedomv]

Pancho Villa comes to my mind when I read your post, but that was many years ago.

With all of the stipulations about wars and hostages just about everything is ruled out.

Vern

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Perhaps the Miami FBI Shootout

Mas Ayoob did a great debriefing on the FBI Miami shootout several years ago. Many "Lessons Learned".

 

[bogie]

There has to be some sort of malitia out there that has started a serious gunfight. An example may be where the criminals have put down a number of officers and the military or national guard is called.

1) It's spelled "militia." Go tell your history and spelling teachers that you need a spanking.

2) The police don't call in the military or national guard (actually part of the military, just "owned" by the states).

3) Cops vs. bad guys, no hostage situation - gotta be the hollywood shootout.

 

[armoredman]

Actually, I believe that would be the 1946 shootout, I forget exactly where, when the local veterans had to call themselves out for a crooked sherrif cooking an election, and ended up keeping the police force at bay in the local jail for a day or so, using personal weapons and stuff from the local NG armory. JPFO had a long article on that, dagnabbit, can't remember the name of the town. Lot's of crooked cops got in trouble over that one.

 

[Azrael256]

Athens, TN

 

[taliv]

my guess would be some gangster action in the 20s

armoredman's guess is also a good one.

 

[shooter58]

"I don't mean war or military action, and I don't mean a hostage situation that takes weeks. I've seen the documetaries on waco texas and the north hollywood shootout. At waco the cops never fired a shot and the criminals burned to death (probably their own fault) "

Either you are too young to have watched this event unfold, or you had your vision blocked by the fecal matter caused by having your head up your posterior at the time. Quite a large number of shots were fired by the fed cops and the term "criminals" is still open for debate at this time.

The Hollywood bank robbery also had quite a bit of endangerment for the innocent bystanders and witnesses around the area. I would have to considr that a pretty sustained shootout.

I have to agree, the present day farmer with his deer rifle wouldn't stand a chance in a standoff against properly armed and trained troops with all the epuipment now available. The only acceptable tactic would be a guerilla type engagement where the defendants carried on a hit-and-run type of assault.

Just my $.02 worth.

 

[NineseveN]

Wow guys, why all the insults? This could be an interesting conversation, sadly, once a mod sees the insults, it's locked down. No point in participating.

 

[Working Man]

Actually, I believe that would be the 1946 shootout, I forget exactly where, when the local veterans had to call themselves out for a crooked sherrif cooking an election, and ended up keeping the police force at bay in the local jail for a day or so, using personal weapons and stuff from the local NG armory. JPFO had a long article on that, dagnabbit, can't remember the name of the town. Lot's of crooked cops got in trouble over that one.

Here's the link:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1913822#post1913822

 

[Lebben-B]

Ole Miss

Hello All,

If I understand DevLcL's question, then the civil rights riot at Ole Miss in the early '60's ('61 or '62, since JFK was POTUS) would qualify. It involved armed citizens, LEO (Local, State, and Federal) as well as the State National Guard and Active Army forces. IIRC it lasted several days.

A good illustration of the challenges faced by LEO in a middle intensity urban situation would be the Rodney King riot in LA. Although they were not tasked with actually clearing buildings, some line officers found themselves having to clear rooms and cross streets with only pistols and shotguns. In the '70's the Philadelphia Police vs MOVE might also qualify.

Mike

 

[R.H. Lee]

How long did the gunfight with the Symbianese Liberation Army guy last in L.A. in the 70's? I seem to recall the guy had a .50.........

Edit: It only lasted two hours before the house caught fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army#Move_to_Los_Angeles_and_police_shootout

 

[GunnySkox]

Your right, but what if the guy behind the cannon grew up on that farm??

That's exactly my point, even the military would be split up. You'd have troops with identical equipment fighting each other.

It probably wouldn't matter half a whit, really. Did you ever see the footage and stuff from the Israeli military dragging their own people kicking and screaming from their homes, when they gave up that one piece of contested land to the Palestinians? There were soldiers broke-down crying, soldiers who were horrified by what they were doing. But they did it. I bet you 90+% of those soldiers didn't think twice about their orders, all that mattered was that they were orders. And Orders is Orders.

New Orleans, in the wake of the hurricanes, some total bastard from the National Guard, "Y'know, you never expect to be doing this kind of stuff to Americans..." concerning the busting in of doors and the dragging people out of their homes, disarming them, etc.. Except I never heard him say that he wasn't going to do it. I don't recall hearing about any charges brought against guardsmen who refused to assault the homes of their countrymen. I'm pretty sure most of those people doing the doorkicking and occupant-dragging cared a lot more about following their orders and "getting the job done" than they cared about the individuals they were screwing over.

So yeah. I don't think the guy behind the cannon would mind much dropping the shells on the land near or on which he grew up. And even if he did, they'd just do away with him and find someone who didn't.

~GnSx
Note: I don't intend to insult any servicemembers, police officers, or anyone else with this. I don't doubt that there are soldiers who would never raise arms against an innocent US citizen, I don't doubt that there are cops who who'd refuse orders to do insane stuff, I just don't think there'd be enough of them, and I think their... contribution to any theoretical revolution would be miniscule at best, mostly of the "taking up cell space" variety.

 

[Old Dog]

And then some, even those with absolutely zero experience, lose no opportunity to speculate on the possible actions of American servicemembers and law enforcement during improbable or impossible circumstances ...

DevLcL, just what was your intent here with this thread? You've really opened separate topics.

 

[omnivore75]

I'm not sure where you heard that the LEO's at waco never fired a shot but thats just plain wrong. Don't get me wrong I'm not a fan of any religious cult or sect like what the Branch Davidians were running but I recently watched a documentary that basically provided rock solid and undisputable evidence that the ATF absolutely was firing on the compound and then they lied about it. It made them look VERY bad. Whoever had tactical command made some very bad decisions. Either way it was a tragedy and unfortunately thats just something that happens in this world and usually it is not any one persons fault. Some of the pic's of the childrens bodies truly disturbed me. You could see that their charred bodies were bent backward to an almost unbelievable degree from where their muscles seized until they literally broke their own backs because of the gas. An argument can certainly be made that the adults in the compound chose their own fate but those kids never had a choice. I think an all out assault on the compound would have resulted in FAR fewer deaths than the whole pump in CS with tanks and then flatten everything idea. It may have resulted in some further loss of life or injury to the ATF officers but the vast majority of those men understand and accept the dangers of their chosen profession and I think most of them would have gladly participated in an assault if it meant saving even some of the children. Of course, that's just my $0.02 worth on the subject and we all know that hindsight is 20 20. I can't say that if I were in the shoes of the man making the final decision that day that I would'nt have done the same thing really, but I would like to think not. Far as long gunfights the NH gunfight was over 40 min I think and thats an eternity in any kind of fight. Whats really amazing is that they did not kill anyone. Just goes to show how ineffective prayin and sprayin is. There is no dodging a bullet like in the movies so the truth is that SMOOTH is fast. If you're going to get hit out of nowhere there is nothing you can do. The ticket is to try and remain calm as possible with bullets flying and get to cover if any is available and then take controlled shots at your target when you get the chance. It is cool looking to go running headlong into gunfire with a pistol in each hand blazing away like in the movies but the only people who do that in real life are either stupid or suicidal.

 

[wallysparx]

i would guess it's not in the US. i'd would think it would be more along the lines of latin america, a la the special featurette from city of god.

 

[dfariswheel]

There was the gun battle between Elfego Baca and a crowd of cowboys that lasted for several days.

To quote:

"At the end of the 19th century, civilization was rapidly consuming the vast American frontier. However, there were still places where mining booms could transform sleepy towns, overnight, into cities, where cattle ranged over huge parcels of land and the law was as strong as the man enforcing it.

This was true in Socorro County in 1884. The year when a self-appointed deputy sheriff named Elfego Baca set out to restore order to the small town of Frisco, near present-day Reserve, New Mexico.

Southwestern New Mexico was still untamed, ranching country. Geronimo would not be captured for another two years and Billy the Kid was killed just three years before. It was a time and place that cowboys did what they wanted, when they wanted.

Elfego Baca arrested one of these cowboys that were shooting up the town of Frisco. The cowboy's friends wanted him released. Something Elfego Baca wasn't going to do. A standoff ensued when Baca took shelter in the tiny house of Geronimo Armijo. The standoff resulted in a furious attack by over 80 cowhands, in which over 4,000 rounds were fired into the house by those outside. Elfego Baca managed to kill four of his assailants and wounded eight others. Thirty-six hours after it began, Elfego Baca walked out unharmed and into history, at 19 years of age."

In Southern Illinois in the 1920's, there was a siege by one bootlegging gang on another that lasted several days.
At one point, the besieging gang hired a WWI veteran pilot to drop bombs on the other gangs hideout.

There was the 1966 Charles Whitman "Texas Tower" shoot-out that lasted for 96 minutes.

In 1973 a shoot-out lasted for 10 hours on a New Orleans Hotel roof top.

In the 1870's, there were a series of long sieges and shoot-outs lasting for days in an attempt by US Marshals to arrest Cherokee gunsmith Ned Christy.
In one attempt, the Marshals fired a home-made cannon against the timber-armored bunker-like house.

One of the SHORTEST, and bloodiest shoot-outs occurred in 1887 in Arizona when Sheriff Commodore Perry Owens attempted to arrest murderer and range war participant Andy Blevins.

Approaching the house, Blevins and other in the house attempted to kill Owens.

In a blazing gunfight that lasted less than 45 seconds, Owens shot and killed 4 people.

 

[omnivore75]

Anyone know how long that FBI shootout in Miami lasted? I know that there were a lot of lessons learned from it. I can't count how many times I have read something regarding it but I still have no idea how long they fought it out.

 

[engineer151515]

Another long gunfight - with text from a descriptive website (edited for brevity)
source: http://siouxme.com/lodge/aim_73.html

"Siege at Wounded Knee 1973

This conflict would begin on February 27, 1973 and last seventy-one days. The occupation became known in history, as the Siege at Wounded Knee.

It began as the American Indian's stood against government atrocities, and ended in an armed battle with US Armed Forces. On that winter day in 1973, a large group of armed American Indians reclaimed Wounded Knee in the name of the Lakota Nation. For the first time in many decades, those Oglala Sioux ruled themselves, free from government intervention, as is their ancient custom. The forces inside Wounded Knee demanded an investigation into misuse of tribal funds; the goon squad's violent aggression against people who dared speak out against the tribal government. In addition they wanted the Senate Committee to launch an investigation into the BIA and the Department of the Interior regarding their handling of the affairs of the Oglala Sioux Tribe. The warriors also demanded an investigation into the 371 treaties between the Native Nations and the Federal Government, all of which had been broken by the United States. For the rest of that winter, the men and women inside Wounded Knee lived on minimal resources, while they fought the armed aggression of Federal Forces. Daily, heavy gunfire was issued back and forth between the two sides, but true to their word, they refused to give up.

After 71 days, the Siege at Wounded Knee had come to an end; with the government making nearly 1200 arrests. But this would only mark the beginning of what was known as the "Reign of Terror" instigated by the FBI and the BIA. During the three years following Wounded Knee, 64 tribal members were unsolved murder victims, 300 harassed and beaten, and 562 arrests were made, and of these arrests only 15 people were convicted of any crime. A large price to pay for 71 days as a free people on the land of one's ancestors. "

 

[DevLcL]

Right on! Lots of good stories here, thanks!

Quite a large number of shots were fired by the fed cops

Your right in that I wasnt really old enough to know exactly what happened at the time. My statement of the cops never firing a shot comes from the documentary on tv where this guy (some sort of LEO, forget the name) said that contrary to popular belief "no law enforcement official fired a single shot that day". I know television is no source of truthful info so I'd believe you first. Omnivore says it was a cover-up, so I guess that's where I got fooled. I just never got the new info about the LEOs lying.

Wow guys, why all the insults? This could be an interesting conversation, sadly, once a mod sees the insults, it's locked down. No point in participating.

Don't sweat it. I just do like I did in kindergarden... Ignore the bullies. Besides I've got quite a few stories out of this to look up now so it's not a total loss.

DevLcL, just what was your intent here with this thread? You've really opened separate topics.

Well, in all honesty I just wanted some more reading material. I love to read and I love a good story so I figured this would give me the opritunity to look up some stories that I've heard nothing about before.

I didn't make this thread to start any debates about LEOs or military or how you spell mIlitia or anything like that I just want the facts.

If you have something constructive to offer, please do chime in.

Again, just like kindergarden: If you don't something nice to say then don't say anything at all.

Thanks to everyone that gave me a real answer.

-Dev

 

[omnivore75]

Well I was not there of course and what I know of the incident is from watching the event unfold on tv as it happened and then all I have read or watched about it in all the years since but I am far from an expert. I just know that they pretty much proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the claims of no agents firing a shot is totally false. They pretty much tore apart the ATF's story at the hearings afterward and thats to say nothing of all the physical and eyewitness evidence that contradicted the ATF's version of events.

 

[DevLcL]

I just know that they pretty much proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the claims of no agents firing a shot is totally false. They pretty much tore apart the ATF's story at the hearings afterward and thats to say nothing of all the physical and eyewitness evidence that contradicted the ATF's version of events.

Interresting...

Anyone know how long that FBI shootout in Miami lasted? I know that there were a lot of lessons learned from it. I can't count how many times I have read something regarding it but I still have no idea how long they fought it out.

I. The first encounter: Platt and Matix inside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1 minute)

II. The initial hits on Platt: Platt exiting the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: several seconds)

III. Platt’s devastating attack: Platt outside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1½ minutes)

IV. The final fusillade: Platt and Matix in Grogan/Dove’s car
(estimated duration of approximately 1½ - 2 minutes).

According to the Anderson, W. French, M.D., Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight, the entire incident lasted approx. 4 -4½ minutes. It probably seemed like forever to those agents, even to Platt and Matix too.

An interresting note of my own after reading the analysis: Both the suspect and the officers recieved serious gunshot wounds very early in the fight and continued to exchange fire. Matix apparenty only got one ,12 ga. #6 birdshot, load off before was shot in the...

...head: The bullet hit Matix just forward of his right ear, below the temple, shattered the cheek bone, hit and fractured the base of the cranium, and entered the right sinus cavity under the eye. This hit bruised the brain (but did not penetrate the cranium or brain) and Dr. Anderson believes it most probably knocked Matix instantly unconscious.

...and neck: The bullet entered the right side of his (Matix) neck after he slumped unconscious momentarily forward against the driver’s side door. It penetrated his neck at a downward angle and severed the blood vessels behind the collar bone, ricocheted off the first rib near the spine and came to rest in the chest cavity. It bruised but did not penetrate the right lung. This wound interrupted the blood supply to his right arm and might have also disrupted the brachial plexus to cause dysfunction of the nerves that supply the arm. Dr. Anderson speculates that Matix’s right arm was probably paralyzed by this injury, either immediately by disruption of the nerves or eventually by total loss of blood circulation to the arm. Dr. Anderson feels this wound would have ultimately been fatal, due to the severed blood vessels. Bleeding from this injury during the next 2-3 minutes caused almost a liter of blood to accumulate in the chest cavity. However, for the next minute, it is believed that Matix slumped over onto his back and lay unconscious on the front seat of the Monte Carlo. and passed out.

Then, AMAZINGLY, while Platt and the officers were still exchanging gunfire, Matix woke up and crawled out the passenger window and took cover behind the Monte Carlo. Then when Platt got into the FBI agents car, Matix saw this, ran over and got in the passenger seat. Mind you the entire time he had a .38 special slug lodged in his face and another in his chest after going through his neck. That's amazing... I believe cops should be allowed to train with and have a 10 rnds(at least) capacity rifle of at least .223 caliber in their squad cars, or thats what I'd want anyway. Especially when you run into a couple of guys like these...

-Dev

 

[bogie]

My statement of the cops never firing a shot comes from the documentary on tv where this guy (some sort of LEO, forget the name) said that contrary to popular belief "no law enforcement official fired a single shot that day".

Okay... I guess that the doofbrain who climbed up the ladder, stuffed his boomstick in his holster, and AD'd his own leg was a figment of my imagination... Then there was the numbnuts who crawled through a window, and then shot through the wall at his own people.

Here's something to think on... _IF_ the folks in the compound had lit up on the vehicles, don't you think we'd have seen pictures of the bullet-ridden hulks on the news? I _know_ what a car looks like when it is shot with a rifle. I know what one looks like when it is shot with a .50BMG. The federales said that the folks in the compound were shooting at them - yet there's no evidence that any of 'em shot any of the vehicles, horse trailers, etc...